# Mike Arnold article on Lantus



## Concreteguy

I found this to be interesting. I respect Mikes views and thought it was worth copying over from PM to here.

Article by Mike Arnold:
I've experimented with Lantus for 7-8 years now...on many different clients (as well as myself) and have found the following. Since I am no longer coaching and writing as my primary source of income, I will lay out my Lantus program here, as well as some of the reasoning behind it.



1.) Low dose Lantus doesn't do jack-shit (in comparison to higher doses)! Because Lantus is released into the bloodstream at such a slow rate, a 20-30 iu dose will only leach a few iu of insulin (or less) into the bloodstream per hour. The problem here is that these few iu won't be provided "in addition" to the insulin already provided by the body. They will be provided "in place" of endogenous insulin. You see, the pancreas only releases as much insulin as is necessary to maintain BG levels within a normal range, so if a few extra iu is being introduced into the bloodstream each hour, the pancreas will automatically reduce its insulin output, as it simply won't need to secrete as much in order to keep BG levels within a normal range. Basically, you end up switching one for the other. 

When using a fast-acting insulin (Humulin or Humalog), the pancreas will do the same thing (slowdown or stop insulin secretion while insulin levels remain elevated), but because fast-acting insulin releases insulin into the bloodstream so quickly, supraphysiological insulin concentrations are quickly achieved despite the loss of endogenous insulin secretion. Therefore, all the beneficial effects normally associated with insulin, such as increased glycogen storage, etc, will be observed. 


2.) Higher doses of Lantus are required in order to reap its true benefits. Although low doses of Lantus are nearly useless (IMO), higher doses most certainly are not. In order to use Lantus effectively the bodybuilder must use a dose high enough in order to not only make up for the 24 hour decrease in endogenous insulin output that will surely occur, but he must use enough to reach supraphysiological concentrations. Obviously, this increases the risk of going hypo, but the risk of going hypo is still not any greater (at any one moment) than when using something like Humulin-R. The only difference is that it will stay active for much longer, so it would be comparable to using Humulin-R at evenly spaced intervals over a 24 hour period. Obviously, this means the individual will have to watch his diet for longer, but it won't drop BG levels any faster. Even a big dose of Lantus will typically drop BG levels less quickly than just moderate dose of humalog. Again, this is due to its slow release profile. 

3.) Lantus should not be used frequently. Daily, high dose use will rapidly damage insulin sensitivity (yes, insulin does decrease insulin sensitivity through insulin receptor binding), thereby negating the entire reason for using insulin in the first place. As insulin sensitivity worsens the body's ability to use insulin deteriorates, so you need to use higher and higher doses in order to continue getting the same results. Not only will your insulin injections become less effective over time, but your body will no longer respond as well to its own insulin either, which means that even when your insulin injections aren't active, the pancreas will be required to pump out larger quantities of insulin just to keep BG levels within a normal range throughout the day. You will have all this insulin constantly circulating throughout your body (both basal levels and your post-meal levels will increase), but with only a fraction of the potential benefits! 

This is a never ending viscous circle that is compounded by GH use, as GH also decreases insulin sensitivity in a dose-dependent manner (just like insulin). Combining these two drugs (especially in high doses) is the most surefire way to damage one's insulin sensitivity. Unfortunately, we still have coaches today who advocate using insulin to manage GH-induced elevations in blood sugar. Stupid! Such recommendations only illustrate how ignorant these people are, as this only makes the problem worse! Sure, it might keep BG levels in a normal range (for a while; until they burn out their islet cells), but elevated BG levels are only a symptom of the underlying condition--insulin resistance. The people who use insulin as symptom management might appear to be fine on the outside (at first), but they are doing a ton of internal damage--to every cell in their body (the cardiovascular system being one of the most important). In time, they will start to develop all the side effects that insulin and GH abuse is known for, eventually culminating in externally visible side effects that ruin the physique. When someone starts developing insulin resistance they need to take steps to fix the actual problem, not cover up the symptoms and pretend the problem doesn't exist! 

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So, with that said, what options do we have? While we can never completely eliminate risk when using Lantus, we can greatly minimize it, while still experiencing very good results. In my experience, I have found that this can be done in one of two different ways. 

The first option is to use high doses of Lantus daily for short-term blasts lasting 2 weeks or less. However, I have found this still causes a significant decrease in insulin sensitivity, which needs to be reversed during the individual's off-time.

Although the above method is an option, I have gotten away from that approach over the years and now tend to recommend using the drug only 1-2 days per week (max) in high doses. This should be done on days that the individual trains their weakest bodypart(s) and is consuming above average quantities of carbs and overall calories. If their weakest bodyparts are small bodyparts like biceps, calves, etc, I recommend pairing those bodyparts up with a larger bodypart, such as back or legs (when possible). I believe this is important, as the body will be able to more effectively use the Lantus if there is a larger quantity of muscle fiber that requires recovery. training larger bodyparts also leads to a greater increase in insulin sensitivity, which partially helps ameliorate the negative effect that insulin has on insulin sensitivity. 

In most cases I recommend that the entire dose is given in a single injection about 1-2 hour before training. For those who train at night and only eat one solid meal after training, this meal should be eaten as close to bed as possible and should be the largest meal of the day in terms of both carbs, protein (from slower digesting sources like meat) and also fats. It would also be a good idea to keep a protein shake (that contains a fast-digesting protein source like whey, as it can easily be converted to glucose if necessary) by your bedside. That way, if you wake up in the middle of the night you can just reach over, grab it, and slug it down. 

Obviously, if you take your Lantus injection later in the day it is going to carry over into the next day, but this is fine. You want your muscles to soak up as many nutrients as possible in the first 24 hours after training, regardless of whether you train early in the day or later at night.

Now onto the part most of you probably want to know--the doses. I am reluctant to post them here because there will be someone saying how dangerous they are (I would dispute that), but I will anyway. However, before we get to that let me first say that I don't think Lantus use is necessary or suitable for beginners or even intermediate level bodybuilders. By that I mean that the individual should have already been training for quite a while and be fairly large. They don't have to be pro or even National-level size, but I do think they should "look" like a bodybuilder and have accumulated a fairly large amount of muscle mass beyond baseline. They should no longer be able to make easy gains with AAS. 

With that said, there is a range I usually stay within. Where in that range I think someone should be will depend on their size and overall caloric requirements. Lastly, I recommend that high-dose Lantus use be avoided during contest prep or anytime fat loss is the primary goal, as it can severely hinder fat loss. I am not opposed to using it during prep on re-feed days, but whether or not it should be done depends on the individual and their circumstances. It is all individual. 

Assuming the individual is an acceptable candidate for Lantus, doses generally sit between 80-200 iu, with 100-125 iu being an "average" dose. Very large bodybuilders with high caloric requirements can often get away with 200 iu without any hypo symptoms at all, even when following their normal diets.

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There are some whose primary purpose in using Lantus is to increase IGF-1 levels just as much as it is to increase nutrient delivery/reduce muscle breakdown. While Lantus does seem to be very effective in this regard, I would caution against using Lantus primarily for IGF-1 elevation. In order to reap maximum benefits from its IGF-1 elevating effects, it would need to be used daily for an extended period of time. Due to the potential negative health consequences associated with using Lantus in this fashion, as well as the adverse effects it can have on the physique, I cannot in good conscience recommend this course of action. Does daily, high-dose Lantus use have the potential to add a lot of size? Yes, it does, particularly when used alongside GH, but you will pay the price with your health...and ultimately ruin your physique. If you don't care about health, aesthetics, or muscle quality...go for it. If you don't want to experience those side effects, then limit your Lantus use as described above, while also employing insulin sensitizing measures on the days you don't use Lantus. This will allow you to obtain many of it's recovery and growth benefits without the same degree of health risk and while greatly minimizing any potential damage to your physique.


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## squatster

Great read
I don't have a clue how to start now.


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## Sully

squatster said:


> Great read
> I don't have a clue how to start now.



All that article tells me is that there’s no reason to start in the first place. I’m getting older and I care more about my long term health than I do about being bigger. It’s gonna be a hard pass for this guy.


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## Concreteguy

Sully, there is almost nothing truly healthy about doing any kind of gear. But there is some that's worse than others. It's all in how you use it.
 Look, insulin is the most anabolic thing you can put in your body. If done safely it will blow you up and not effect your prostate in any way. You can't say that about gear.


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## Sully

Concreteguy said:


> Sully, there is almost nothing truly healthy about doing any kind of gear. But there is some that's worse than others. It's all in how you use it.
> Look, insulin is the most anabolic thing you can put in your body. If done safely it will blow you up and not effect your prostate in any way. You can't say that about gear.



Which is why I use very little, if any gear at all, anymore. 

And, oddly enough, gear seems to have almost no effect on my prostate. Had my Doc check it while on over a gram of Tren, in addition to other stuff, and he said it was tiny. I’m sure that will change as I continue to get older, which is why I have already begun changing my priorities and how I live my life. Being big just isn’t the priority that it used to be, and I can be exactly as big as I want to be without insulin. There’s just no good reason for me to go down that path at this point in my life. 

I’m not trying to dissuade or discourage others from it, though. We’re all grown ass men here, and can put anything in our bodies that we choose to. If someone wants to go down that path, more power to ‘em. I wouldn’t presume to tell another how they should live their life or what they should want. The cost benefit analysis simply doesn’t work out for me, that’s all.


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## Concreteguy

That's good your doing what you want to do friend. Hope you stay nice and healthy!


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## AGGRO

I wouldn't feel right using that much insulin in a day. I am sure it would be effective but 200iu insulin per day is not for me.


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## odin

I love Mike Arnold articles. That dose seems very high. Has anyone used that much lantus before?


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## Viking

Good read. Who wants to guinea pic this for us? Perhaps there are guys on here who have done that much?


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## squatster

Great article


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## MyNameIsJeff

I think it would be worth using once a week, before training a lacking muscle group. Anymore often than that and the negative effects on insulin sensitivity might outweigh the benefits. I myself am perfectly content with taking regular Insulin pre workout and rapid acting post.


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## SURGE

MyNameIsJeff said:


> I think it would be worth using once a week, before training a lacking muscle group. Anymore often than that and the negative effects on insulin sensitivity might outweigh the benefits. I myself am perfectly content with taking regular Insulin pre workout and rapid acting post.



I am curious why you would do that. Regular slin is active for many hours. Or is your preworkout dose a few hours before? I have used rapid pre and post for the same reasons. Never used high doses though. I agree that lantus would be great for weak body part days.


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## aon1

Viking said:


> Good read. Who wants to guinea pic this for us? Perhaps there are guys on here who have done that much?



If someone wants to supply me with the lantis and plenty metformin etc I'll run a variation of this ....something like two days on two off with a concentrated training program and maybe a group effort as best layout for the whole run then post up the results.....I'm staying on current gear ...wasn't out to run lantis yet but free is free lol ....maybe it would settle the lantis idea


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## odin

aon1 said:


> If someone wants to supply me with the lantis and plenty metformin etc I'll run a variation of this ....something like two days on two off with a concentrated training program and maybe a group effort as best layout for the whole run then post up the results.....I'm staying on current gear ...wasn't out to run lantis yet but free is free lol ....maybe it would settle the lantis idea



That would be good. Perhaps train and dose 2 days on 1 off. Even 4 days per week with 3 off and metformin on those off days.


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## ASHOP

Sully said:


> All that article tells me is that there’s no reason to start in the first place. I’m getting older and I care more about my long term health than I do about being bigger. It’s gonna be a hard pass for this guy.



Smart guy. I would say 90%+ of the guys who frequent these boards have no business using insulin.


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## Sully

ASHOP said:


> Smart guy. I would say 90%+ of the guys who frequent these boards have no business using insulin.



Agreed. Competitors and competitive athletes might have a valid reason, but otherwise I have a hard time rationalizing it. But, adults have to make decisions for themselves. To each his own.


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## odin

Sully said:


> Agreed. Competitors and competitive athletes might have a valid reason, but otherwise I have a hard time rationalizing it. But, adults have to make decisions for themselves. To each his own.



Very true but if used smartly and dosed low it is safe and can give good results. Many would argue small doses of slin are better for you than increasing aas doses. The slin doses mentioned in the article just sound insane though. Adults can do what they want but I would only expect a 300 pounds pro to use those amounts. I do agree that many who have no place using slin are though. Newbies weighing 180 at 6ft are jumping on slin and it just seems wrong.


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## striffe

Very good read. I personally wouldn't use such high doses but for high level competitiors needing more stage weight I can see it being very useful.


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## bob80

lantus is the best!


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## Massive G

I have Lantus a few vials enough to make a run it's just been so hard to stay on track and eat  times a day and train more than 3 times a week.
I will commit to it  and keep a log how I feel . I train at 6 and finish by seven and am well fed by bedtime so I may try the before work out dosing.


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## Marky boy

Only just noticed this post. Absolute great post IMO. 

I’d be happy to run this protocol in 10/12 weeks or so once I trim up a bit. 

I’d use it twice per week, 3 at most on back and leg days. On other days I’d use fast acting slin.  

I have a friend who’s diabetic so getting the slin itself is easy.


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## speeder

Massive G said:


> I have Lantus a few vials enough to make a run it's just been so hard to stay on track and eat  times a day and train more than 3 times a week.
> I will commit to it  and keep a log how I feel . I train at 6 and finish by seven and am well fed by bedtime so I may try the before work out dosing.



any update on this?


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## ASHOP

bob80 said:


> lantus is the best!



Lantus seems to be the 'go to' insulin right now. There's no doubt it can be used very effectively when used correctly.


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## Wilhelm.V.Meyer

I use Lantus for loading up on carbs. 60 IUs at max. 800 grams of carbs, 600 grams of protein and zero fats. Using GHRP6 is the only way I can eat that much food. HGH (Saizen) at 8 IUs every 8 hours. 

This affords me to run the remaining days of the week on 500 grams of protein, 100 grams slow acting carbs and 100 grams of healthy fats. No HGH/Insulin/GHRP6 for any of these remaining days. 

To anyone who's thinking of running this, make sure to use Metformin with every meal. Workout twice on this day, if you could. Make sure that there's atleast a gap of 14 or so hours in between your Lantus administration and nigh-time sleep. I have learnt this the hard way. I know some forums advocate dividing the dose up in order to remain anabolic all day, but for me, that's what led me to have a trip to the ER at the middle of the night.

As for my insulin sensitivity, it has increased over the years. So has my IGF1 sensitivity.


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## rAJJIN

I always thought about the same of mike Arnold as Gavin Kane.


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## K1

rAJJIN said:


> I always thought about the same of mike Arnold as *Gavin Kane*.



Almost Pro:star-wars-smiley-01


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