# glucophage



## tordon (Feb 21, 2007)

ive been reading up on glucophage, it seems it can lower natural test, atleast thats what the study sugested even though the amount of people in the test was rather low, like 12 I think, so the results kind of seemed inacurate to start with.....but I have a few questions I will post here as well as pro.mus...The test sugested that if liver damage was already a problem, glucophage could cause acidosis, so is glucophage hep toxic? and if so to what degree, like in comparison to an 17 A oral like dbol?, also since it can lower natural test, is it advisable to use off cycle?..does anyone know of anybody who has used it off cycle?...
I am just about ready to go another round with AS, but am trying to find a way to not lose as many gains durring post cycle, I don't trust myself enough yet with insulin and am not knowlagable enough about things like igf yet, although I am working on getting to that point......

thanx....


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## mike1991 (Feb 21, 2007)

Dude glucophage is an oral diabetes medicine and some people have developed a life-threatening condition called lactic acidosis while taking Glucophage. Get emergency medical help if you have any of these symptoms of lactic acidosis: weakness, increasing sleepiness, slow heart rate, cold feeling, muscle pain, shortness of breath, stomach pain, feeling light-headed, and fainting. Do not use Glucophage if you have kidney disease or congestive heart failure, or if you are in a state of diabetic ketoacidosis.


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## tordon (Feb 21, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> Dude glucophage is an oral diabetes medicine and some people have developed a life-threatening condition called lactic acidosis while taking Glucophage. Get emergency medical help if you have any of these symptoms of lactic acidosis: weakness, increasing sleepiness, slow heart rate, cold feeling, muscle pain, shortness of breath, stomach pain, feeling light-headed, and fainting. Do not use Glucophage if you have kidney disease or congestive heart failure, or if you are in a state of diabetic ketoacidosis.



thank you for your concern mike, I know you are a very knowlegable man, I have been reserching this stuff for a week now...
yes I relize what the med is for and what it can cause mike, the lactic acidosis is only if you have already got liver problems from what ive read, and I am aware of the symtoms of it, my mother my sister and even my dog are on this stuff perscribed by a doctor, many bodybuilders swear by this stuff as well... I was just simply wondered if it was hep toxic, if no liver problems were present, and if any bodybuilders take this stuff off cycle.......


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## mike1991 (Feb 21, 2007)

The lactic acidosis is only a problem with people who already have a coexisting contion such as kidney problems, CHF (congested heart failure), and DKA. But that doesn't mean if you do have any of these conditions that will get lactiic acidosis, it just means that you will have a greater risk. So educate me and tell me why healthy guys like yourself would be taking this. I'm trying to think about the pros of it, but I can't.


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## mike1991 (Feb 21, 2007)

tordon said:
			
		

> I was just simply wondered if it was hep toxic, if no liver problems were present




No


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## tordon (Feb 22, 2007)

i'm not taking it, i'm simply reserching it, I also reserch slin hgh and Igf and syntherol and much more, i'm just trying to learn everything I can bro, 
          I found on pro muscle, people who are not resdy to take the plunge to slin are doing this stuff, on anabolex as well........check this link out dude...

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13881&highlight=metformin


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## mike1991 (Feb 22, 2007)

I read the posts and I'm not even going to recommand how you should use it. Due to the fact, I don't approve of it. As with insulin, I use to use it and when I used my regular dose when I was on AAS it put me in the hospital for a few days. Contary what people say that insulin will kill you is true, but it is a long process. What will happen is you will starve your brain of glucose and this is how you slip into a coma after you have a seizure depend how low your glucose went. I never meet anybody who died suddenly from insulin, I have meet people who have been remove from life support because they became brain dead form using too much insulin. Taking an oral diabetic medication is safer then regular or humolog insulin, but the risk is still there. If you do use it, don't be a retard like one guy said that he was taking 1500mg per day. If you screw up you may not get another second chance.


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## shanetuff (Feb 23, 2007)

Listen to Mike, he knows his shit about Insulin.

What are you looking for the glucophage to do.  Are you wanting its anabolic effects?  

If your looking for that, get on groth and double all your anabolics.  When you start pissing blood, back off a little on the orals.  Tan alot so you wont look so yellow.

Dude, its hard core shit.  Do your home work first.  Let use know what you do.

Mike, what do you think of metformin?  I know guys, other than my old man, who use it all year long.


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

Shane, Glucophage and metformin is one in the same. Glucophage is the brand name while its generic name is metformin. Other such as Riomet, Fortamet, and glumetza and probably more that I can’t think of right now are the same as glucophage. The generic names for all of these are metformin hydrochloride. The reason why the brand name is different on all of them is because they are manufactured by different drugs companies. Your best bet would be to talk to other who is using this. Not any Joe blow either. People who are very experience by the means of actually taking it. Anytime you use an antidiabetic agent there are risks. Just consume a lot of short and long acting carbs before you take it. Preferably like 100 grams of carbs. I don’t have my palm pilot on me so I can’t tell you the half life. But I will post that tomorrow after I get home from work.


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

Shane, Glucophage and metformin is one in the same. Glucophage is the brand name while its generic name is metformin. Other such as Riomet, Fortamet, and glumetza and probably more that I can’t think of right now are the same as glucophage. The generic names for all of these are metformin hydrochloride. The reason why the brand name is different on all of them is because they are manufactured by different drugs companies. Your best bet would be to talk to other who is using this. Not any Joe blow either. People who are very experience by the means of actually taking it. Anytime you use an antidiabetic agent there are risks. Just consume a lot of short and long acting carbs before you take it. Preferably like 100 grams of carbs. I don’t have my palm pilot on me so I can’t tell you the half life. But I will post that tomorrow after I get home from work.


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

my dogs diabetic, my mom is a mild diabetic, I can see the doc putting her on it, but my sis ins't to my knowlage, why the hell would he sugest she use it too, blows my mind, all they know about the stuff is to take it after breakfast, they knew nothing about the 100grams of carbs stuff til i informed them a few days ago after doing my own reserch, they also were unaware of the problems with b12 absorbsion associated with metformin , and my mom has problems with anemia and has to get regular b12 inj. what is your opinion in this case mike?.. WTF, like I said, I am doing my homework and may never use the stuff, but I do want to know everything I can, about every thing I can..esspecially when family members are involved..I appreciate your experience in this matter mike, I'm not one of those guys you see on forums who is just gonna try somthing I heard about from some guy, I do a mountain of reserch before i get into anything, for that matter there are many AS's i stay clear from as well, but this does not mean I don't look into them, or even resech them with no intention of ever going there........


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

shanetuff said:
			
		

> Listen to Mike, he knows his shit about Insulin..



I know mike knows his shit buddy, I respect "his" opinion...



			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> What are you looking for the glucophage to do.  Are you wanting its anabolic effects?..



 as far as I know it isn't anabolic, it sensititizes insulin receptors, and blocks glucose in the intestines...  



			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> If your looking for that, get on groth and double all your anabolics.  When you start pissing blood, back off a little on the orals.  Tan alot so you wont look so yellow.?..



I'm not just some dumb kid who found a forum and decided to juice up buddy, ive been doing as cycles for years, and safely, I may add.....and have done more reserch on them than most people I know who use....as far as GH it aint worth the cash for the results a guy gets for bulking puposes, and is only practical for fat loss IMO and I have no intention of ever using it anyways.....and as far as the rest of that comment is concerned.......YOU FIRST..... and you can keep me posted...


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

You put people on glucophage as monotherapy, are indicated as an adjunct to diet and exercise to improve glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes. Are you sure your sis isn’t a diabtic ? Adults in general, clinically significant responses are not seen at doses below 1500 mg per day. However, a lower recommended starting dose and gradually increased dosage is advised to minimize gastrointestinal symptoms. 
The usual starting dose of glucophage is 500 mg twice a day or 850 mg once a day, given with meals. Dosage increases should be made in increments of 500 mg weekly or 850 mg every 2 weeks, up to a total of 2000 mg per day, given in divided doses. Patients can also be titrated from 500 mg twice a day to 850 mg twice a day after 2 weeks. For those patients requiring additional glycemic control, glucophage  may be given to a maximum daily dose of 2550 mg per day. Doses above 2000 mg may be better tolerated given three times a day with meals.  You would never had to go at these dosages due to the fact, we are not diabetics.  Diabetes mellitus (DM) is a group of metabolic diseases characterized by high blood sugar levels, which result from defects in insulin secretion, or action, or both. We do not have this problem. 
With anemias,a decrease to subnormal levels of previously normal serum Vitamin B12 levels, without clinical manifestations is very low when taking glucophage. However, measurement of hematologic parameters on an annual basis is the standard in patients on glucophage. Certain individuals with inadequate Vitamin B12 appear to be predisposed to developing subnormal Vitamin B12 levels. In these patients, routine serum Vitamin B12 measurements at two- to three-year intervals may be useful.

Tordon, I wasn’t replying anything negative about you in regards to taking glucophage. I’m also very glad you research things before trying them. As with glucophage, I would recommend that you stay away from taking this now. I only recommend this due to the fact; you have DM that runs in your family. If your MD is recommending that your sis be put on it, then her A1C which is a test that can measure your glucose during the last three months must be high. Your MD will not put her on glucophage unless she is DX with DM. If this is the case and I hate to say it, but you are running a very high risk of developing DM in the future. Also, if you are genetically predisaposed to DM, taking insulin or any oral anti-diabetic medications may actually increase your risk more. I have no proof that it may and I doubt I can go through any journal to see if any studies exist. Since a study like that would be unethical.


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

tordon said:
			
		

> I know mike knows his shit buddy, I respect "his" opinion...



I agree I know my stiff with the AAS that are used in the medical field, like Deca and test. But with all of the other AAS I don't know that much, but I always ask and wait until a large amount of people respond before making a conclusion. I am far from being anybody that knows his shit. Until Congress reverse the AAS issue. Then and maybe then, real textbooks and courses on AAS can be achieved. However, it probably will only happen if it does when I'm to old to give a damn. Test, I will take until I die if I am lifting or not.


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

tordon said:
			
		

> my mom is a mild diabetic, all they know about the stuff is to take it after breakfast, they knew nothing about the 100grams of carbs stuff QUOTE]
> 
> Your mom does not need 100 grams of carbs after she takes her med. Remember, we do not have a problem when our glucose get to high. Our body corrects that. Your mother do have a problem with the absence or insufficient production of insulin.


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm sure my sis isn't diabetic, at most shes slightly hypoglycemic, I'm not even sure the doc did any tests on her for it, he just sugested it would't hurt her to take it as well as she has low energy, I will talk with her in the morning and find out  for sure, as for my mother she is only slightly diabetic, I'm getting worried about them now, and the Doctors dessision in this matter, should they have a glucosameter aswell?....the whole thing is hush hush around here as the doc origanally gave my mom the script for her dog, if you can belive that, as he is the only one who is for sure diabetic , my mom couldn't afford it from the vet and is on a plan, went crying to the doc and he gave her a big script for the stuff on the down low, next thing I know everybody over there is on it, I'm gonna find out just what tests were performed and on whom, but like I said I know my sis isn't diabetic, and was told to take the stuff.....


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> Test, I will take until I die if I am lifting or not.



do you take test depot year round, as HRT....


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> clinically significant responses are not seen at doses below 1500 mg per day. QUOTE]
> 
> both of them are on no more than 500mg/day taken in the morning


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

Dude, what you said is scary. I would get a new MD or better yet find a Nurse Practitioner that specialize in DM. Your sister wouldn’t be on glucophage if she has low energy. That would make it worst. More likely she has anemia and almost every girl has an iron related anemia unless they are taking supplements due to there menstrual cycle. Its just common knowledge. Yes she needs an accu-chek machine or a glucose machine what ever you want to call it. How can you adjust her dose if she doesn’t now what her glucose is?


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

tordon said:
			
		

> do you take test depot year round, as HRT....




Damn I'm not that old. I believe in HRT and when I am old enough I plan on being on it year around.


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> Dude, what you said is scary. I would get a new MD or better yet find a Nurse Practitioner that specialize in DM. Your sister wouldn’t be on glucophage if she has low energy. That would make it worst. More likely she has anemia and almost every girl has an iron related anemia unless they are taking supplements due to there menstrual cycle. Its just common knowledge. Yes she needs an accu-chek machine or a glucose machine what ever you want to call it. How can you adjust her dose if she doesn’t now what her glucose is?



holly shit dude, thanx for the imput, im gonna get to the bottom of this, ive been wondering about this doc for some time, I used to use him but switched, seemed to cavalier to me, I went in there a few years ago, wanted some tests done, told him I was on a cycle of test cyp. and instead of the tests he perscribed me more test, told me to tapper down with it and come back in three months if I still wanted the tests, can you belive that...good stuff too....I know this sounds incredibly hard to belive but it is true


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## mike1991 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thats just crazy. I bet the test was good stuff too if he wrote you a script. I would do that but the DEA would red flag me. Everytime you get a prescription filled, the pharmacy has to punch in your DEA number when they fill it. I use real clomid tabs. Even if I could test or even deca is like 3 to 4 time higher and the amount in the vial wouldn't last you a few weeks.


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## tordon (Feb 23, 2007)

I think the doc's have more leeway here in canada as far as that stuff goes, I once asked if it was not infact illegal to perscibe a medication for a ailment that it was not regestered to treat, he said in the states they are sticky but here doctors have alought more freedom, it's funny you mention clomid, when he perscribed me the test depot, i had also asked for clomid or nolva, he wouldn't give me either, insisting those meds were only for females, opting insteed to give me Depot.....at the time the only place I new to get gear was from a buddy, he was a light weight competitor, but he did not belive in clomid or nolva either, and didn't carry the stuff.....

the test was only 200mg/ml but was far better than the UG stuff I had that was 250mg/ml, very low viscosity too, I seem to remember paying about $100 for it, if memory serves witch was slightly higher than the UG at $80


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## shanetuff (Feb 24, 2007)

Tardon, I hope I didn't insult you, that was not my intention.

I was hoping you would see the sarcasm in my cycle suggestion.


Mike, my dad, older brother and both grand parents on my fathers side have type 2 diabetes.  

My doctor told my that it isn't a matter of if I get it but when I get it.  I'm going to quote a message I picked up from one of my sources about metformin,

"DOSIS: 500mg after a carb meal. 1,000mg after a huge carb meal. 1,500mg after an all you can eat buffet, where you feel like throwing up because you ate so much. At least 4 hours between doses. NEVER use it at the same time as injectable insulin as it will make the injectable insulin unpredictable.

"NO NEED TO CYCLE ON OR OFF THIS PRODUCT. USE IT ALL YEAR LONG"

"It prevents type II diabetes. I believe everyone should be on it. It has all the benefits for fat loss as mentioned below"

THIS INFORMATION ON DOSIS AND USING IT ALL YEAR LONG IS THE OPINION AND USAGE OF A "REAL IFBB PRO BODYBUILDER"

This drug heightens the body's sensitivity to insulin, and is currently used to treat type 2 diabetes. For fat loss purposes Metformin is used in ketogenic diets to rapidly drop blood sugar to quickly induce ketosis. For a mixed ratio diet, Metformin would be used with carb meals insuring that the carbohydrates go to muscle tissue over fat, this is a great addition to a high sugar post workout meal.

Additionally, due to the fact that it controls insulin levels in the body, it also greatly reduces hunger in between meals. Metformin is very beneficial in that it heightens insulin sensitivity, which is very good due to the fact that most Americans are insulin insensitive. This over production of insulin which insulin insensitivity causes can lead to weight gain and also various other health problems. Now, the best way to use Metformin would be to take 2000-3000mg divided up with meals. On a moderate carb diet, you could split up the dose and take it only with your carb meals.

If you follow a CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet) type diet, the best way to use it would be with your weekend carb up, which would follow the same schedule as above. Metformin is not needed during the week, but if you like the appetite suppressing effects that it gives you, you can also use it during the week. Another thing you can do on a CKD is to have a small amount of fast acting carbs (around 40-50g) after your workout with Metformin. This will not cause you to drop out of ketosis due to the fact that the Metformin will quickly shuttle the carbohydrates into the muscle cells while still running on ketones."

Do you know of any studies where metformin was used as a pro-active measure to prevent type2 diabetes?  Or is it only prescribed after an official diagnosis was made?

Just curios,  thought it would be something to discuss with my doctor.


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## mike1991 (Feb 24, 2007)

The Multiple Benefits of Metformin
Metformin (brand name "Glucophage") has been used in the treatment of type II diabetes for the past 40 years.(1) This drug counteracts many of the underlying factors that result in the manifestation of this insidious disease. Metformin also produces helpful side benefits that can protect against the lethal complications of type II diabetes. Frequently prescribed anti-diabetic drugs fail to address the fundamental causes of type II diabetes and can induce serious side effects.
by JoAnn Knorr, MMS
Type II diabetes affects between 16 to 19 million Americans. About 75% of type II diabetics will die from a cardiovascular-related disease. Conventional doctors often prescribe drugs for the purpose of lowering blood sugar levels. These drugs do not adequately address the multiple underlying pathologies associated with the type II diabetic state.
Type II diabetes is characterized by cellular insulin resistence. The result is excess accumulation of glucose in the bloodstream as cells become resistant to the effects of insulin.


Type II diabetes is characterized by cellular insulin resistence. The result is excess accumulation of glucose in the bloodstream because cells become resistant to the effects of insulin and fail to take up glucose.

As the type II diabetic condition progresses, many people gain weight and develop more fat cells.(2) Treating type II diabetes with insulin-enhancing therapy increases the risk of cardiovascular complications, induces weight gain, and fails to correct the underlying cause of the disease. Many type II diabetics produce too much insulin in a futile attempt to drive glucose into insulin-resistant cells. When doctors prescribe insulin-enhancing drugs to these type II diabetics, a temporarily reduction of serum glucose may occur, but the long-term effects of this excess insulin can be devastating.
An ideal anti-diabetic drug would enhance cellular insulin sensitivity, inhibit excess intestinal absorption of sugar, reduce excess liver production of glucose, promote weight loss and reduce cardiovascular risk factors. Metformin (Glucophage) is the one drug that does all of this and more.
Metformin works by increasing the number of muscle and adipocyte (fat cell) insulin receptors and the attraction for the receptor. It does not increase insulin secretion, it only increases insulin sensitivity. Therefore, metformin is not associated with causing hypoglycemia. This activity reduces insulin levels by increasing the sensitivity of peripheral tissues to the effects of insulin by rejuvenating the response, and restoring glucose and insulin to younger physiological levels that may cause weight loss and most certainly a decrease in the body's total fat content.(3-7)
In an study published by the American Diabetes Association, metformin was found to decrease the fasting plasma glucose concentration by -60 to -70mg/dl in patients with non-insulin dependent type II diabetes.(1) Metformin also reduced hemoglobin A1C levels, a blood measurement of glycosylation. One of the most devastating consequences of diabetes is protein degradation caused by the formation of advanced glycated end products. Reductions in serum hemoglobin A1C levels are a good indicator of consistent glucose control in the diabetic patient.
Dr. Ward Dean is a specialist in anti-aging and life extension medicine, author of over a 100 articles on the biology of aging, and founder and Medical Director of the Center for Bio-Gerontology in Florida. He recommends taking 500 mg of metformin two or three times per day to all his patients over 40 who do not have kidney or liver problems, or a history of congestive heart failure.(4,5)
According to Dean, aging causes insulin resistance. Metformin increases hypothalamo-pituitary sensitivity that declines with age. As we get older, there is a loss of sensitivity of the hypothalamus and the peripheral tissues to the effects of insulin, which causes elevated blood insulin levels (hyperinsulinemia).(4,5)
A number of harmful and age-accelerating effects are associated with elevated blood insulin levels. These effects include: increased infections, microvascular complications like retinopathy (eye problems), nephropathy (kidney problems), neuropathies (nerve problems), hypercholesterolemia, hypertension, premature atherosclerosis and obesity, which eventually evolve into cardiovascular problems.(1,3-5,8)
The cardiovascular system
Patients with type II diabetes often present with a cluster of cardiovascular risk factors like visceral obesity, hypertension, high triglyceride and low high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels, and hypofibrinolysis, all of which form insulin resistance and potentially contribute to increased cardiovascular risk.(8) In the United Kingdom Prospective Diabetes Study, metformin was the only medication that reduced diabetes related deaths, heart attacks and strokes.(1,8)
In the Fontbonne and Associates BIGPRO 1 trial, the individuals with visceral obesity treated with metformin showed greater weight loss, a greater decrease in fasting insulin levels and a smaller increase in low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol concentrations than those who received placebo. A decrease in plasminogen activator inhibitor was most associated with the body weigh loss in subjects.(8,9) In the trial, the effects of metformin were most notable on the level of endothelial (artery lining) damage that showed a decrease.
The microvascular complications of retinopathy, neph-ropathy and neuropathy improve due to metformin's ability to decrease damage to arterial lining.(2) These small blood vessels are somewhat unblocked to provide healthier blood supply to vital tissues surrounding the eyes, kidneys and nerves.(2)
The potentially preventive effects of metformin on type II diabetes and evolving cardiovascular complications include a decrease in total cholesterol and low density cholesterol (LDL), free fatty acids, tissue plasminogen activator antigen and insulin levels when patients present with symptoms of hypertension, dyslipidemia, visceral obesity or hyperglycemia.(8)
In non-diabetic patients with hypertension, 3 placebo controlled trials were done. These trials showed that metformin significantly reduced fasting insulin or C-peptide levels, as well as total cholesterol, low density lipids cholesterol or apolipoprotein B levels, fasting free fatty acids and tissue plasminogen activator antigen levels. Metformin had a significant effect on lowering blood pressure and fasting triglyceride levels in one of these trials.(8)
Polycystic ovarian syndrome
Polycystic ovarian syndrome is characterized by irregular or absent menstrual periods, and elevated serum testosterone and androstenedione. These patients complain of abnormal bleeding, infertility, obesity, excess hair growth, hair loss and acne. Polycystic ovarian syndrome seems to have a genetic component in which those who are affected often have both male and female relatives with type II diabetes, obesity, elevated blood triglycerides or high blood pressure. They may also have female relatives with infertility, hirsutism or menstrual problems.


Metformin has been found to suppress the growth of some tumors and enhance the activity of anti-cancer drugs.

For women in the reproductive age range, polycystic ovarian syndrome is a serious common cause of infertility because of the endocrine abnormalities that accompany elevated insulin levels. As women with polycystic ovarian syndrome maybe at greater risk for other medical conditions, testing is essential. They should be tested for blood lipids, diabetes and blood clotting factors that promote abnormal clotting. Metformin, at doses of 500 mg to 850 mg three times per day, has been shown to reverse these endocrine abnormalities. In women with polycystic ovarian syndrome, metformin reduced systolic blood pressure, hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance, and facilitated menstrual regulation and pregnancy.(10,11)
Cancer & cellular immunity
Metformin has been found to suppress the growth of some tumors and enhance the activity of anti-cancer drugs. By giving the immune system a boost, metformin can improve cellular immunity. It has also been found to reduce the incidence of chemically induced cancer in rats.(5,7)
The way metformin improves cellular immunity is linked to its blood sugar lowering effect by improving receptor sensitivity and number. Bacteria, fungi and some viruses tend to feed on sugar. By diminishing their fuel supply, we diminish them. That is why diabetics and other individuals with endocrine abnormalities tend to be more prone to infections.(2)
Contraindications & side effects
Metformin is not recommended for people who have a history of kidney or liver disease, or a history of congestive heart failure. People with a history of alcohol abuse should also avoid taking the drug, as serious lactic acidosis can develop in these individuals.
Long term use of metformin may cause malabsorption of vitamin B12.(1,3-5,8) Because of the depletion of B12, supplementation is recommended.4-6 When a person begins to take metformin, they may experience some nausea and vomiting, stomach pain, bloating and diarrhea. The latter usually disappear once the person becomes accustomed to the drug.(1,5)
Many helpful side benefits
Metformin's multiple effects benefit individuals with a propensity to develop diabetes, cardiovascular problems, endocrine problems, retinopathies, nephropathies, cancer or decreased immunity, infections and weigh gain.(1-5,8)
As with diabetes, metformin has been shown to cause a reduction in appetite, weight, and the body's total fat content. In associated heart disease conditions, there is plaque build-up that lines the arteries. This build-up of plaque can lead to atherosclerosis.(8) Metformin reduces or lowers the chances of developing atherosclerosis and reduces the rate of pro-aging cross linkages of collagen, which plays a role in the scar tissue build-up that cccurs during wound healing.(4)
Metformin has been shown to reduce the amount of supplemental insulin needed by type II diabetics who become insulin-dependent. They are able to take a lower insulin dose in conjunction with metformin without the risk of becoming hypoglycemic. For 40 years metformin has been used to control blood glucose levels in patients with type II diabetes. Physicians are recommending it to patients who are predisposed to diabetes for the prevention of developing the disease.(8)


Metformin prevents the acceleration of atherosclerosis and reduces the rate of pro-aging cross linking of collagen.

With the cluster of cardiovascular problems associated with hyperinsulinemia, metformin has proven effective in lowering total cholesterol, low density lipids, free fatty acids, tissue plasminogen activator antigen and insulin levels when patients present with symptoms of hypertension dyslipidemia, visceral obesity or hyperglycemia. Metformin prevents the acceleration of atherosclerosis and reduces the rate of pro-aging cross linking of collagen. The microvascular complications of hyperinsulinemia are improved by metformin due to the arterial clearance in small blood vessels of the eyes, kidneys and nerves.
There are other positive effects associated with metformin: decreased tumor growth and improved cellular immunity in individuals who are prone to chronic infections associated high blood sugar levels. In non diabetics, metformin reduced low density lipid, total cholesterol, free fatty acids, tissue plasminogen activator antigen, blood pressure and fasting triglyceride levels.(1-5,8)
Women suffering from polycystic ovary syndrome have been treated with metformin. Benefits include: lipid lowering effects, reduction in systolic blood pressure, hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance syndrome. Metformin has also been shown to aid in normal menstrual regulation and pregnancy.(10,11)
In conclusion, the scientific research points to metformin's multiple uses, with few drawbacks. Accordingly, the drug's numerous side benefits associated with the treatment and prevention of diabetes, as well as other disorders, appear to outweigh its limited side effects.
There have been no human studies to identify the optimal dose of metformin that is needed to duplicate the beneficial gene expression effects that are described in the June 2003 issue of Life Extension magazine.
For people who want to derive the many proven health benefits of metformin, it might be prudent to follow the dosage schedule used by Type II diabetics. According to the Physician's Desk Reference, the starting dose should be 500 mg of metformin twice a day. (An alternative option is 850 mg of metformin once a day).
After one week, increase the dose of metformin to 1000 mg as the first dose of the day and 500 mg as the second dose. After another week, increase to 1000 mg of metformin two times a day. The maximum safe dose described in the Physician's Desk Reference is 2550 mg a day (which should be taken as 850 mg three times a day).
According to the Physician's Desk Reference, clinically significant responses in Type II diabetics are not seen at doses below 1500 mg a day of metformin. Anti-aging doctors, on the other hand, have recommended doses as low as 500 mg twice a day to healthy non-diabetics who are seeking to obtain metformin's other proven benefits such as enhancing insulin sensitivity and reducing excess levels of insulin, glucose, cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood.
It could be the dosage range is highly individualistic in healthy people, meaning some may benefit from 500 mg twice a day, while others may need 1000 mg twice a day for optimal effects. Blood tests to ascertain if the dose of metformin you are taking is improving glucose/insulin metabolism would be:
1.	Hemoglobin A1c 
2.	Fasting insulin 
3.	CBC/Chemistry panel that includes glucose, cholesterol
triglycerides and indicators of liver and kidney function 
A hemoglobin A1c test measures the average amount of sugar in your blood over the last 3 months. Metformin helps lower hemoglobin A1C to safe low levels (below 5-6%).
Aging and overweight people often suffer from metabolic disorders that manifest in the blood as excess serum insulin, glucose, cholesterol and triglycerides. Metformin often helps correct all of these metabolic disturbances that can lead to the development of numerous degenerative diseases. The CBC/Chemistry test provides readings on cholesterol, glucose and triglycerides and can also warn you of underlying liver-kidney impairment that would make you ineligible for metformin. The fasting insulin test indicates if metformin is adequately lowering levels of serum insulin to a safer range of below 5 (micro IU/ML).


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## tordon (Feb 24, 2007)

shanetuff said:
			
		

> Tardon, I hope I didn't insult you, that was not my intention.
> 
> I was hoping you would see the sarcasm in my cycle suggestion..



no harm no foul shanetuff, Ive just become very deffensive on this issue, as reserching it, I have similar posts on many boards and have been flamed a number of times by people who will give me shit then ask me "what is that stuff anyways" 

these are people who go on year long cycles, would think nothing of doing slin regular, and have no knowlage of metformin, but have no problem calling me an idiot, for just asking questions about it.....

Ive read some of your posts here and relize you are no new comer either, like I said ive just been getting iratable and defensive, I know your here to help Bro.....




			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> Mike, my dad, older brother and both grand parents on my fathers side have type 2 diabetes..
> 
> My doctor told my that it isn't a matter of if I get it but when I get it.  ,.



I guess i'm in the same boat, my Mom, Dad and grandfather all have class II diabeties....oh and don't forget about my Dog...LOL  



			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> I'm going to quote a message I picked up from one of my sources about metformin
> 
> "DOSIS: 500mg after a carb meal. 1,000mg after a huge carb meal. 1,500mg after an all you can eat buffet, where you feel like throwing up because you ate so much. At least 4 hours between doses. NEVER use it at the same time as injectable insulin as it will make the injectable insulin unpredictable.,.



I had found this same info, aswell



			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> "NO NEED TO CYCLE ON OR OFF THIS PRODUCT. USE IT ALL YEAR LONG
> 
> "It prevents type II diabetes. I believe everyone should be on it. It has all the benefits for fat loss as mentioned below"",.



The above info is totaly contrary to what mike has sugested



			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> THIS INFORMATION ON DOSIS AND USING IT ALL YEAR LONG IS THE OPINION AND USAGE OF A "REAL IFBB PRO BODYBUILDER"
> 
> This drug heightens the body's sensitivity to insulin, and is currently used to treat type 2 diabetes. For fat loss purposes Metformin is used in ketogenic diets to rapidly drop blood sugar to quickly induce ketosis. For a mixed ratio diet, Metformin would be used with carb meals insuring that the carbohydrates go to muscle tissue over fat, this is a great addition to a high sugar post workout meal.
> 
> ...





			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> Do you know of any studies where metformin was used as a pro-active measure to prevent type2 diabetes?  Or is it only prescribed after an official diagnosis was made?.



mike??????????????



			
				shanetuff said:
			
		

> Just curios,  thought it would be something to discuss with my doctor.




Sorry guys I posted this without seeing mikes last post...


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## mike1991 (Feb 24, 2007)

Guys I can't find any thing about metformin preventing DM. Also, if it did, I believe that the drug companies would be pushing this drug. I have never heard of it, can't find anything in any of my texts or drug books saying it does. I wish it would because I have a lot of people who are on the borderline being DX with DM


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## tordon (Feb 24, 2007)

well i'm gonna have to read that big post a few times to absorb all of that mike, I guess my moms glucosameter is on the way, than the doc will probebly up her dose to 1000, I'm thinking, my sister has low energy she says from fiber mialga( spelt wrong im sure)....

If i'm interpereting this info correctly, it is infact used on people without diabetes, with a predisposition of getting the disease.....

also please correct me if i'm wrong, but all that info to me looked like the pro's far out weighed the cons, Is this the jist of it mike


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## tordon (Feb 24, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> Guys I can't find any thing about metformin preventing DM. Also, if it did, I believe that the drug companies would be pushing this drug. I have never heard of it, can't find anything in any of my texts or drug books saying it does. I wish it would because I have a lot of people who are on the borderline being DX with DM


 sorry for my lack of understanding in this, but the medical termonolagy in this case is definatly not my strong point...
DX?,DM?...I just want to make sure i'm totaly clear on this
Thanx guys
also mike do you mind if I post your reserch elsewhere...


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## mike1991 (Feb 24, 2007)

Diabetes mellitus (DM)
Diagnosis (DX)

I don't care if you post it anywhere else. I can say for sure it will not prevent DM. There would probably be about 15 million people that could be on it to prevent DM. Aot of money for the drug companies. I read alot of publications all the time since things change in my profession everyday, but I have never read or heard that it will prevent DM. But then again and I hate to say it, but there is no money in curing diseases like DM. Think about how much money is made every year treating DM verses then taking a pill and curing it.


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## tordon (Feb 24, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> Diabetes mellitus (DM)
> Diagnosis (DX)
> 
> But then again and I hate to say it, but there is no money in curing diseases like DM. Think about how much money is made every year treating DM verses then taking a pill and curing it.



Thats so sad, tis $$$$ not love that makes the world go round....
Thanx for all your help mike


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## mike1991 (Feb 24, 2007)

tordon said:
			
		

> I'm thinking, my sister has low energy she says from fiber mialga( spelt wrong im sure)....



I think you mean Fibromyalgia. It’s a very hard symptom to diagnosis since the cause of fibromyalgia is currently unknown. A number of other disorders can produce essentially the same symptoms as fibromyalgia and in a woman you need to rule out B12 and D deficiency and endocrine issues should also be reviewed. Furthermore, a neurologist should be consulted to rule out any neuro conditions.


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## shanetuff (Feb 24, 2007)

I get the feeling that prevention is defiantly not a way for Doctors and The big Pharm. companies to make money.

Every one is in it for number one.


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## shanetuff (Feb 24, 2007)

Oh, By The Way,





Mike, you go nuts

Thanks Boss, you didn't have to do all of that.  I hope I'm speaking for us all, you are an asset to this forum


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## tordon (Feb 25, 2007)

shanetuff said:
			
		

> Thanks Boss, you didn't have to do all of that.  I hope I'm speaking for us all, you are an asset to this forum



Shanestuff you are definatly speaking for me too, Mike you rock Bro thanks for all of your help.......

I'm not sure how a person becomes a mod, but I personally think you are an asset to this forum and should be one bro.....


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