# Need help



## Spiderman (Jul 12, 2014)

So here's my problem.. 

I ran a cycle a few years back of Test-E 500mg/wk for 10 weeks... Thought I knew what I was doing and ran some nolva/clomid for PCT.. I don't think I ever fully recovered, libido and moderate ED problems.. 

I've tried a few things, went to a few docs and my test is "normal" range along with everything else... although I was 20-21 when I used and now 23. 

I actually got blood work a few times.. test levels came back anywhere from 383-804 ng/dcl ... Although when I had the higher 800+ I had been taking clomid again for a few weeks.. 

I want to get my boys down south working like they did prior to ever using.. .I've read some info that HCG and Clomid can help even a few years later as your test level are "suppressed" and not permanently damaged. 

I have taken things to try and help ... test boosters and over the counter herbs and supplements (Zinc, ginkgo bilboa, enzyte, etc. ) and have a prescription for Viagra.. 

I almost never get spontaneous erections or morning wood.. and I feel like I'm 40 even though I'm 23.. 

I've been going to doctors and they all tell me the same thing- I'm fine and proceed to prescribe Viagra... 

So somebody help me out, what can I do to get test production back to upper ceiling levels or maybe even through the roof a bit with my own guys doing the work ? 

IDK if it matters.. 
5'11 
235-240 lbs 
18%BF 
was about 210-215 pre test e, slightly lower BF


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## Enigmatic707 (Jul 12, 2014)

What are your estro levels- that's what's really going to matter at this point. If your Test is fine then maybe your estro and estradiol levels are outta whack..


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## MattG (Jul 12, 2014)

High prolactin possibly?


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## Spiderman (Jul 12, 2014)

estro was normal range.. prolactin last time checked was just slightly out of range and endo said this is normal and can be caused by a variety of factors.. Test around 350 is pretty low and uncommon for my age though, I'm wondering if I can do a PCT even though I haven't done a second cycle


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 12, 2014)

yes estro and prolactin? 

also to answer your question...being as manly as possible will get your test as high as possible...lots of steak and eggs and leafy greens, lots of powerlifting and chopping down trees and hard manual labor...good quality sleep...testosterone is a demand pump, body gives you how much you need so you must demand more!


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## Spiderman (Jul 12, 2014)

Lol.. does anybody have a suggestion other than chopping down trees to get my boys less atrophied and have normal erections ? Something tells me turning into johnny aplpeseed isn't medically relevant here .. 

Again estro was fine and prolactin was just out of the ordinary, last test was done in about february of this year.. 

When i was using clomid it was very light, 25mg a day sometimes 50mg but then I ran out after about a 2 week stint.. 

I'm thinking of getting a good amount to run 300mg day 1, then day 2-10 100 mg, with another 21-30 days just 50mg ... 

Any suggestions ? I've read mixed things about using HCG off cycle and it seems to be controversial as to its benefits


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## Big-John (Jul 12, 2014)

Yes you can run a pct again.


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 12, 2014)

there is no magic pill dude....start chopping, don't be a pussy

prolactin can kill your boner, elevated prolactin is not normal, that's why there is a normal range...maybe try som caber or prami 

it's controversial but a shot of triptorelin could help too...but self medicating is what got you into this mess in the first place, I really suggest being a metaphorical lumberjack

ya a little clomid didn't work so maybe a shitload more will work, great logic


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## tripletotal (Jul 12, 2014)

Clomid is used medically to boost T levels in place of exogenous T but without the shutdown.

Do you know what your T levels were before you ever cycled?

I agree with the others that prolactin out of range can be a real problem here.

Most doctors know less about this stuff than they will ever admit. They have no fucking clue and can't relate so they don't ever investigate. Find a doc who gets the situation, hopefully that's been in the situation.

Did you use an PHs at any point? That's what I feel landed me in TRT territory.


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## Spiderman (Jul 12, 2014)

You're not very helpful.. 

So here's the issue.. If chopping trees was a suitable and effective PCT, I'm sure more users would use this idiotic suggest. Also, hormone levels are established normal ranges, and it is not uncommon for people to slightly fall out of those ranges. 

For instance, police officers tend to have slightly elevated prolactin levels from their extended wearing of their vests, something I learned after the endo asked if I was a cop. 

And the climid did help to an extent, but I ran out, so using more should work for more time and have a better effect, so actually yes, logically it makes more sense than chopping a tree.


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## Spiderman (Jul 12, 2014)

Never used anything other than Test-e and over the counter shit that wouldn't have any effect on hormones (protein, creatine, BCAA, etc)


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 12, 2014)

Spiderman said:


> You're not very helpful..
> 
> So here's the issue.. If chopping trees was a suitable and effective PCT, I'm sure more users would use this idiotic suggest. Also, hormone levels are established normal ranges, and it is not uncommon for people to slightly fall out of those ranges.
> 
> ...



I didn't say it wasn't common I said it wasn't natural...bullet proof vests ARE NOT NATURAL...if you want a NATURAL CURE do what I suggested, sorry it's not what you want to hear

clomid is used to TEMPORARILY, increase hormones for making a baby...my syntax may be crude but it's actually based on biology...unlike your approach of taking wild stabs in the dark 

men with high testosterone aren't sitting on the couch eating tribulus pills and taking hcg... they are out there working their ass off and their balls are pumping out the juice to support the organism...I somehow doubt you are out there killing it everyday being a plump 240


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## Derek7X (Jul 13, 2014)

Your test level at 300ish has nothing to do with anything you're talking about IMO.

My test levels were at 297-305 when I was even 21 years old, and I was completely natural and always had been. You just naturally have low testosterone, plenty of men do. I had functioned 100% fine and never had *ANY* problems you have except I had low energy(which I didn't realize, and thought was normal) until I went on TRT.

I don't know how to help you - but it's not the low test, and it's apparently not estrogen. It must be prolactin or something psychological, I have no idea...sorry this doesn't help, but I'm just letting you know, I'm about 95%+ sure it's not your "low test" causing this - because otherwise I would have had the same problem IMO.

Hope you figure it out


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## Spiderman (Jul 13, 2014)

Well test is based on an individual and is not universal... 300 might be
'\1 normal for your body but it certainly doesn't feel that way for mine. The ranges are just that, what people fall in, somebody that is used to 1000+ is certainly going to feel if they have a drop or only operating with half that. .


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## Spiderman (Jul 13, 2014)

on the same token though, you did have to eventually get TRT, and I'm not looking to do that as I don't think my problem is quite severe enough


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 13, 2014)

Do Testosterone-Boosting Supplements Work? | The Art of Manliness

How to Increase Your Testosterone | The Art of Manliness


enjoy!


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## *Bio* (Jul 13, 2014)

Spider, give this a shot...Single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again

Check the peptide sponsor here...The one I'm referring to has "Superior" quality!


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## The Grim Repper (Jul 13, 2014)

I'd suggest using cod liver oil and vitamin D every morning.  The benefits to your testosterone production are well documented for these.  Use everything at your disposal.  I use these daily and anyone should even if they are not dealing with your particular issue.  I also suggest zinc every night before bed.  You may want to try the Power PCT program to help kick start your system.  Good luck spidey.
G.


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## Spiderman (Jul 13, 2014)

Can you give me a link to the power PCT program ? 

I've read a lot about zinc and magnesium... have vitamin d and zinc laying around the house so started using those a few days ago and already woke up with about half a tent lol .. 

Hopefully things keep getting better I'm going to at least use a clomid cycle and look into what you suggested though, 

Thanks guys


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## The Grim Repper (Jul 13, 2014)

The famous PoWeR PCT Program by Dr. Michael Scally

Yeah, zinc and vitamin D are good stuff man.

Read and google as much as you can regarding this type of protocol.


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## Big-John (Jul 13, 2014)

Good luck man and keep us posted.


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 13, 2014)

ya keep us posted, I juiced like crazy from age 17 to 21...then took all sorts of drugs from 21 to 24 to try and recover....finally went cold turkey and haven't touched anything in about three years(except for some eli black tops, hehe)...the last three years have been the best, I'm horny, wake up with a strong wood, get a nice rubbery one when I'm getting a chicks number or flirting...can go about twice on my own when bangin...if I want porn star status I can take half a dose of cialis or run some melanotan 2....melanotan makes you freakishly horny so there is definitely something to the vitamin D/sunlight/having a tan...

The last drug protocol I did was a shot of triptorelin...whether or not to take a serm afterwards is controversial but I took nolvadex, 40mg per day for two weeks and then 20mg/day for two weeks...I think I did this to keep my body from a "negative feedback loop" or someshit from the trip driving your lh and fsh up real high...I have to admit I don't really understand the science...anyways....did the shot, 1 month of nolva, one month nothing, got bloods two months after the shot and test was like 750 or 780 and lh and fsh were both pegging the scale...I need to get them done again tho, maybe Monday or Tuesday!


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 13, 2014)

oops, sorry for the giant photo, I suck at technology...FSH was only 8.7, not pegging the scale on that one but LH sure was


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## Sully (Jul 14, 2014)

Spiderman said:


> Something tells me turning into johnny aplpeseed isn't medically relevant here ..



You meant to say Paul Bunyan. Johnny Appleseed was a real man that actually planted several thousand apple orchards from New York to Missouri and everywhere in between. Paul Bunyan was the mythical lumberjack that was accompanied by Babe the blue ox. 

And I have to ask, are you just wanting to be told what you're wanting to hear? That's definitely the vibe I get here.


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## Enigmatic707 (Jul 14, 2014)

I'm kinda frustrated-

You say your test, estro and prolactin are fine- so what are you hoping to accomplish. And 350 for test it totally fine and that's not sub par in any way.

This is not a hormone issue so you need to stop addressing as such.


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## Spiderman (Jul 16, 2014)

Reading through the Power PCT and further along through some other clinical studies it says clomid use helped to restore some guys using 100 mg a day... you think this will be enough or should I also use the HCG ? 

Also saying that climid can raise estro in men due to to FSH and LH creating more test, so should I use small amounts of arimidex during ? 

Thanks again for the help


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## Sully (Jul 17, 2014)

Well, since you're obviously gonna throw a bunch of pills at the "problem" and hope it goes away, just take anything that might help. Triptorelin, HCG, HMG, nolvadex, Clomid, exemestane, and some cabergoline just for good measure.


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## zoot499 (Jul 21, 2014)

I'm sorry but I just had to comment.

Cutting wood won't make you any more manly than wearing the color pink will make you gay. Eating more manly may though. If you eat like a bird or a woman then that can mess with your test.

Things I'd look at would be fat intake, vitamin levels, and things of that sort. If you have been dieting harshly it could crash your levels. 

Also, clomid will raise estrogen due to the fact that you are raising testosterone. More test = more aromatization = more estrogen. If I've understood everything correctly, it should not raise estrogen directly which will mean that as long as your test is within normal you shouldn't receive estrogen sides.


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

the body operates within strict limits and is constantly testing the blood...messing around with clomid and hcg and ai's is DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD...period...it's a closed system, you can't jack with it....if you could we would all be walking around with our nuts in shopping carts from getting our test so high

the only thing you can do to raise your testosterone is create an environment where your body is forced to produce more to keep up with a DEMAND for more...this CANNOT be accomplished by drug use


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## Enigmatic707 (Jul 21, 2014)

humpthebobcat said:


> the body operates within strict limits and is constantly testing the blood...messing around with clomid and hcg and ai's is DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD...period...it's a closed system, you can't jack with it....if you could we would all be walking around with our nuts in shopping carts from getting our test so high
> 
> the only thing you can do to raise your testosterone is create an environment where your body is forced to produce more to keep up with a DEMAND for more...this CANNOT be accomplished by drug use




I am beyond confused by this post-

Are you saying there are no drugs that when administered- increase the production of testosterone? It would seem as though that's what you're saying-?


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> I am beyond confused by this post-
> 
> Are you saying there are no drugs that when administered- increase the production of testosterone? It would seem as though that's what you're saying-?



permanently, for someone with normal levels of testosterone, no...otherwise everyone would have super high natural test and there would be no need for aas

temporarily coupled with time off from from aas, as in pct, sure...but I believe it's mostly the time off ...this guy is way beyond pct...IMhumbleO


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## Enigmatic707 (Jul 21, 2014)

humpthebobcat said:


> permanently, for someone with normal levels of testosterone, no...otherwise everyone would have super high natural test and there would be no need for aas
> 
> 
> 
> temporarily coupled with time off from from aas, as in pct, sure...but I believe it's mostly the time off ...this guy is way beyond pct...IMO




Even if there were drugs that would get you to "supra physiological levels" there would still be plenty need for AAS's - your body doesn't make Tren, drol, var.. Etc.

I'm not sure if I want to drag you into the deep end of the pool when it comes to a discussion about HTPA and the feedback mechanism of estradiol or lack there of and it's role on test production in relation specifically to the hypothalamus.

The amount of test that one can produce when using ancillary drugs like hcg or an AI has more to do with the affinity of leydig cells within the testicles and there overall state of productivity/efficiency. One also has to look at cholesterol levels and see if the body is primed to naturally make over 1500 ng/dl of test which I have seen plenty of labs that have showed this from guys who are months into pct.


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

drag me baby, drag me, I would love to learn how I can take a drug, increase my testosterone production/levels, and then have permanently high natural levels afterwards, which is what this guy is asking for as well 

and what happens when they stop taking the AI and hcg? the 1500 levels may be reached by a drug concoction but will it last after everything is stopped?  do they go on living with 1500 after everything is ceased? I would think only if they tested that high before taking any aas would it remain that high

I know not taking any drugs at all is a hard concept for some to grasp...


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Even if there were drugs that would get you to "supra physiological levels" there would still be plenty need for AAS's - your body doesn't make Tren, drol, var.. Etc.



so are there or aren't there, it sounds like your saying there aren't...now you're the one confusing me haha

if there aren't...then I feel like I'm correct in all my assumptions...if there are, I would love to hear about it

and why would people need tren and drol and var...to impress the ladies or win bodybuilding shows, sure...for the majority of people who just want a better quality of life...I don't believe so good sir


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## Enigmatic707 (Jul 21, 2014)

humpthebobcat said:


> so are there or aren't there, it sounds like your saying there aren't...now you're the one confusing me haha
> 
> 
> 
> if there aren't...then I feel like I'm correct in all my assumptions...if there are, I would love to hear about it





You never said anything about remaining high after one stops the drug, either way the highest I've seen achieved in any medical literature was 3400 ng/dl from 125iu if hcg per day

Obviously this is ed administration of hcg and will not remain that high after cessation- 

And when I say "supra pshyiological" that means beyond what's achievable from the bodies own natural production ie- 3500+


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> You never said anything about remaining high after one stops the drug, either way the highest I've seen achieved in any medical literature was 3400 ng/dl from 125iu if hcg per day
> 
> Obviously this is ed administration of hcg and will not remain that high after cessation-
> 
> And when I say "supra pshyiological" that means beyond what's achievable from the bodies own natural production ie- 3500+



lol well what's the point then...I pretty sure this guy is looking for a permanent raise in test production...I've said there is no way to do this multiple times throughout the thread ...except cutting down trees with an axe for a living, which I guarantee will maximize test levels (it's a joke but people are missing the point) but everyone has screamed bullshit, freakin haters, haha

:action-smiley-041:


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

Also, I would like to add that all cells in the body regenerate at different speeds, they know how to copy themselves and make new cells because of DNA...within 7 (7 or 11, can't remember) years you will have a completely new body!!! all new cells...

if you can wait long enough living a "manly" lifestyle, the cells in your body will regenerate back to the test levels you are supposed to have given your specific DNA....this is, of course, if you LEAVE YOUR BODY ALONE STOP TAKING FREAKIN CLOMID AND SHIT

this is how I have come to understand human biology...if anyone can explain it differently go right ahead, it's only my personal viewpoint...of course I think it's right cause it's mine


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## zoot499 (Jul 21, 2014)

Not all drugs cause suppression in your bodies own natural production. This is something you seem to overlook in your posts.

Taking something like clomid will in no way shape or form suppress your natural production. Meaning that when you come off it, your natural production will not be worse off than it was before. Same with HCG. 

These actually CAN boost your natural production even after you stop taking them. How do you think you end up producing more "naturally" on drugs like clomid and hcg? Your body creates more hormone producing cells. Simple. 

Yes, without the stimulation of clomid and/or hcg your body will slowly get rid of all these extra production cells, HOWEVER, that doesn't mean it will return the same exact number that you had before you took the drugs. There are many cases in which you will end up with higher production than before the drugs. Yes. Permanently. Now it may not be a jump from 350->800 but it can end up higher than before. 

One way to look at it is by looking at a car battery. Your car won't start because your battery is dead, but that doesn't always mean your battery needs to be replaced. Maybe you left the lights on overnight and didn't notice. You get a jump start and charge your battery and no longer need anyone to jump start your car. Same thing here. On AAS so long his body is suppressed and needs a jump start. Give it the jump start and it *may* all end up fine. Or it really could be that the battery is a piece of shit and needs to be replaced cuz it won't hold a charge anymore.


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

zoot499 said:


> Not all drugs cause suppression in your bodies own natural production. This is something you seem to overlook in your posts.
> 
> Taking something like clomid will in no way shape or form suppress your natural production. Meaning that when you come off it, your natural production will not be worse off than it was before. Same with HCG.
> 
> ...



You use words like "can" and "boost"... it's the same argument... it's temporary, only a temporary boost..:for someone pct'ing yes it will "raise" test levels... someone whose been off for 3 years it will do nothing ... he did one cycle, not "on aas for so long" freakin read the whole thread before you post this stuff

"how do you produce more naturally when on drugs like clomid" ...that sentence doesn't make any freaking sense, ITS NOT NATURAL 

please show where it's proven clomid and hcg grows new cells and doesn't just make existing cells produce more PLEASE

AGAIN, if hcg and clomid really did anything, made some statistically significant appreciable difference, all men would be on it and all men would have sky high test...it doesn't and they don't!!!!!!


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## Enigmatic707 (Jul 21, 2014)

humpthebobcat said:


> You use words like "can" and "boost"... it's the same argument... it's temporary, only a temporary boost..:for someone pct'ing yes it will "raise" test levels... someone whose been off for 3 years it will do nothing ... he did one cycle, not "on aas for so long" freakin read the whole thread before you post this stuff
> 
> "how do you produce more naturally when on drugs like clomid" ...that sentence doesn't make any freaking sense, ITS NOT NATURAL
> 
> ...




Dude- you're just sounding crazy now- just do a pub med search.. Hcg will raise test levels in men who are NOT hypogonadal.

Yes I wi say it again, a man producing a decent amount of test on his own will in most cases show a significant increase in test production.


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## humpthebobcat (Jul 21, 2014)

oh my gosh, okay, I give up


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## Sully (Jul 21, 2014)

U guys are arguing 2 different sides of the same point. But ultimately it doesn't matter. He came on here after ignoring multiple doctors, convinced that there's something wrong with him. He's not interested in any good advice. All be wants to be told is how much of which drugs he should take to fix his "issue." Just tell him to take an handful of a bunch of different drugs and inject a bunch of other stuff stuff and he'll disappear never to be heard from again. 

Then, start another thread and discuss this issue calmly guys. There's no need to get contentious over how the HPTA works. Don't be like GnarleyDemon  talking about aliens.


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