# My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids...



## Racepicks (Aug 21, 2018)

OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread.  Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano.  I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions.  I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.

Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.


I was listening to the RX Muscle series called, Ask Dave.  He was saying that he believed the "Sweet Spot" for weekly Testosterone injections was 1000ml.  I was surprised by that.  It seems to me that the popular answer is, 500-750ml/week.  


My question for Jano is:


What dosage do you think is the level where, above that, a person may be putting their health in jeopardy?

I believe the level is proportionate to a persons genetic ability to stay healthy.  What I mean is, some people have a propensity for poor health.  For this person, maybe abstaining from Steroid use is the answer.  Other people are never sick a day in their life, maybe they can handle the higher dosages.

Your thoughts?

By the way, this question is directed to everyone.


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## Sully (Aug 22, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread.  Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano.  I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions.  I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.
> 
> Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.
> 
> ...



I’ll preface my post with the same disclaimer as yours. This is all just my opinion and I don’t claim to infallible in any way. 

I’ve always felt that it’s dangerous to state that a certain amount of gear, regardless of the hormone in question, is a “sweet spot”. Everyone responds differently to every hormone, and at different amounts. There can’t be one certain amount that just works best for everyone, there are just too many variables in play.

 Diet, training, gear experience, body fat percentage, amount of muscle mass, healthy, weight, standard hormone levels without gear, genetic propensity for side effects. These are just a handful of the myriad of moving pieces that work together to determine how an individual responds to a cycle. And notice that I didn’t even bring up which hormones they were using or what amounts? Or the use of an AI. There are just too many pieces to the puzzle to make blanket generalizations about how much gear is ideal for any one individual.


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## lycan Venom (Aug 22, 2018)

Sully took my words and typed them out for me... fucker beat me to it. Lol... ^ is my exact thought process as I run low doses and think the highest I ran was maybe 700mg test e (not taking esterification factor out). I did not see a difference in physique between the doses or signifocant performance increase keeping everything else the same. That was back in '14 I think, and was me experimenting for my personal body response.

I always think I have a low tolerance for AAS as low doses work amazing for me.


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## ucsumma (Aug 22, 2018)

It's definitely an issue of individual biovariance.

I was having a similar discussion with a friend and it's analogous to alcohol, caffeine, or a host of other substances - we all know that person where one cup of coffee turns them into a jittery mess and the other that can drink a pot right before bed without any Ill effects.

With something more dangerous like hormone manipulation, it always makes sense to start low and build from there. It's much more difficult, and riskier, to go high from the start and hope for the best. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## custom creation (Aug 22, 2018)

I don’t believe there is any expert on the topic, except the person who’s body is being directly affected! We have all tried a higher dose at some point and for me personally I saw no benefit from it other than filling like shit.  Then you have to factor in the many more side effects that come with running higher doses.  I have seen guys who can run 250mg of test only a week with no sides and be in single digit bf%, because they know there body’s and their diet is on point.  Back in the day I worked out with Jim Helwig a few times and he swore by higher doses! It wasn’t until he was older and out of wrestling that he said to me “I wish I would have listened to what my body was trying to tell me”!
  In my opinion and it’s only an opinion, I believe the key is staying off cycle long enough to let the body recover before starting another cycle


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## pesty4077 (Aug 22, 2018)

custom creation said:


> I don’t believe there is any expert on the topic, except the person who’s body is being directly affected! We have all tried a higher dose at some point and for me personally I saw no benefit from it other than filling like shit.  Then you have to factor in the many more side effects that come with running higher doses.  I have seen guys who can run 250mg of test only a week with no sides and be in single digit bf%, because they know there body’s and their diet is on point.  Back in the day I worked out with Jim Helwig a few times and he swore by higher doses! It wasn’t until he was older and out of wrestling that he said to me “I wish I would have listened to what my body was trying to tell me”!
> * In my opinion and it’s only an opinion, I believe the key is staying off cycle long enough to let the body recover before starting another cycle*



This is very important. Every guy I have trained, I have made him come off everything for good amount of time.


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## Concreteguy (Aug 22, 2018)

Thoughts? A necessary evil. Unless your a true freak your note going to get to your goal with out it. Every one has there OWN individual threshold and "sweat spot" and most probably will never know what that is. Joe Common just remembers the one great cycle he did and doesn't put the thought into what it was and how much. MOST guys don't even chart their cycles and amounts. So they couldn't go back and study gains and why if they wanted to.


BTW: that's charting Gear/Diet/Training all together. I have done this for years and can go back any time and reflect on how I looked relevant to that information.


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## Racepicks (Aug 22, 2018)

The prevailing opinion is:

A person should use the least amount of gear, while making steady gains,

Who can argue with that logic.

Unfortunately, like Concreteguy stated, I bet a lot of guys have not even charted their gains in relation to their dosages.  They just begin the process of spiraling upwards.  Some can get away with it for a while, and I'm thinking some meet some sort of medical emergency.

I am not trying to make this thread one of those "Dangers of High Doses", everybody post why you should not use high doses!  In Palumbo's show I referenced earlier, he said the sweet spot for Testosterone was 1 gram that was in addition to 600ml Anabolics and some orals.  No, what I want to hear is some honest opinions or first hand accounts of people who are firm believers of 1 gram Test as a base.  Is this realistic???  Seems like it is not something the average gym rat would consider.  Am I wrong?


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## Sully (Aug 22, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> The prevailing opinion is:
> 
> A person should use the least amount of gear, while making steady gains,
> 
> ...



Maybe I should clarify what I was saying. I’m just as guilty as anyone of going way overboard on my gear use, and for no other reason than to see how much I could get away with. There was a time in the not so distant past where I was using over a gram of Tren Ace per week, for a little over 8 months straight. Why? Because I could, honestly. Once I figured out how to structure my gear use and ancillaries to keep the side effects at a minimum, it was just a matter of raising the dose until I figured out my what me ceiling was. The last thing I want to do is bash guys that use high doses, or summarily discourage anyone from experimenting with them. You don’t know where your limits are unless you test them once or twice. 

Race, you may want to post a link to the video you are referencing. I suspect there are some details and assumptions that are being missed when the story is being translated. It would be my guess that Dave is talking about serious, high level bodybuilders, that have better than average genetics, and have already achieved a certain level of overall muscle mass, and the things he says aren’t really meant to translate to the average gym rat like the guys here. He probably also says the things he does, while making the assumption that we already u defers day those qualifying criteria, without having to have it explained to us. That’s just a wild ass guess, though.


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## Concreteguy (Aug 22, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> The prevailing opinion is:
> 
> A person should use the least amount of gear, while making steady gains,
> 
> ...




Hey Race, the average gym rat is on (AT LEAST) a gram of shit totaled up. Most are tren happy.


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## Racepicks (Aug 23, 2018)

You know, Sully!  I just went back and replayed the video.

BUILDING FREAKY CALVES! #askDave

He is a little bit all over the place.  Keep watching though, the question I was referencing was about an all Test cycle.


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## Racepicks (Aug 23, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> Hey Race, the average gym rat is on (AT LEAST) a gram of shit totaled up. Most are tren happy.



Yeah CG, I believe you're right.  When I refer to people who are blessed with great genetics, you come to mind.  I'm up there in age, I've been on for years, non-stop.  So for anyone who wants to share their experiences, have at it.  I'm certainly in no position to judge.


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## Sully (Aug 23, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> You know, Sully!  I just went back and replayed the video.
> 
> BUILDING FREAKY CALVES! #askDave
> 
> He is a little bit all over the place.  Keep watching though, the question I was referencing was about an all Test cycle.



Ok, I watched the video and found the part you’re referencing.

 If I’m completely honest, I lose a lot of respect for Dave and guys like him when they answer questions like those in such a flippant manner. Don’t get me wrong, Dave is highly knowledgeable. He’s done more in and for bodybuilding than a chump like me ever will. I’m not trying to impugn his intelligence or question his conclusions. 

Dave should know better than to answer a question like that. He knows as well as anyone that there are too many variables to take into account to make that kind of recommendation to someone that he has absolutely no knowledge about. I took the question to be a newb that’s asking about running his very first cycle, and Dave is telling the guy to start at a gram of Test a week. For a guys very first cycle! Seriously? I find that to be highly irresponsible. The guy could be a 400lb fat ass with absolutely no training experience that thinks running one cycle is going to turn him into Arnold in 2 months. The aromatization sides effects alone could be a total disaster for someone like that, not to mention BP, kidney function, sexual sides, etc. 

We make a concerted effort to on this forum to get as much info as we can before we make a recommendation to someone, and even we don’t have a decent concensus on what these guys should be taking and how much. Is Dave wrong in his assessment about the gains and side effects of a gram of Test a week? No, for most people he’s probably spot on. But is he making that recommendation in responsible manner? Not even close. Dave dropped the ball there big time.


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## Racepicks (Aug 23, 2018)

Look, I'm not trying to promote high dosages.  I'm not saying people should not take high doses.  People will do what they want to do and probably not admit they are using high amounts of AAS, out if fear they will be flamed for being reckless.  What I want to do is get an idea what people are actually using.  I will not allow anyone to get criticized for their doses.  If someone actually trusts us all and lays out their usage, feel free to ask questions, but DO NOT FLAME.  I will ban anyone who shuts down this discussion.


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## Sully (Aug 24, 2018)

Since I’ve already mucked up this thread with a bunch of bitching, I’ll make an effort to get back on track. 

Currently I’m using:
400mg Test E- every 3 days
300mg Deca- e3d
200mg Masteron- e3d
25 or 50mg (not sure which based on supplier testing) Dbol before every workout

This is a dirty bulk for me. I’ve got some gut/digestive issues which are making food intake difficult. This is by far the most Test I’ve ever run. It’s been interesting so far. Strength and growth have been good, but water retention is super high. I’ve also had a bear of a time controlling e2 and aromatization. Even 50mg daily pharma Aromasin isn’t fully keeping existing gyno from getting worse. 

It’s been a very long time since I’ve run a cycle this big. And the high Test gives me mixed feelings. Usually my Test stays under 125mg per week, and I run a lot of Tren, Mast and Var. That keeps me big, full and strong, helps a lot with leaning out, and doesn’t give me any problems with gyno while only using a small amount of Aromasin every other day. I also don’t retain any water on that cycle or put on any fat, while keeping my total weekly dose of AAS somewhat lower. The Tren does cause a small amount of cystic acne on my back, that I don’t seem to be getting with my current Test and Deca cycle. 

Do I think that a gram of Test is a pretty safe amount to run for a lot of guys? Based on my current cycle, I’d absolutely have to say yes. I’m highly sensitive to e2, and struggle with aromatization more than many guys. The majority of guys wouldn’t have nearly the trouble I do so long as they used a small AI dose to keep e2 in check. 

For the past few years I’ve been, I wouldn’t say anti-Test, but definitely a believer in keeping Test at TRT levels, even during big bulking cycles. I figured, let the Deca (or whatever compound you’re using) do the majority of the heavy lifting. For guys like me that are in the minority and are highly sensitive to Test and estrogen conversion that’s probably a good idea. But, for the majority of guys out there, a more conventional approach of high Test is probably more productive. 

I’m still not going to tell a newb to run a gram of Test on his first cycle, no matter what Dave says!


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## Concreteguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Yeah CG, I believe you're right.  When I refer to people who are blessed with great genetics, you come to mind.  I'm up there in age,* I've been on for years, non-stop. * So for anyone who wants to share their experiences, have at it.  I'm certainly in no position to judge.



 Race that's a tuff spot to be in buddy. The reason we surge and cruise or stop is so the body can re-set and except the same amounts of gear with a positive anabolic response. Staying on for a long ride will change your set points to anabolics and cause you to NEED more and more to grow. That's how so many of the "pro's" end up on huge amounts of gear. Their bodies have developed a tolerance to high doses from titrating up over the years because they never come off. That combined with the mind set "more is more" and there off to the races. One other way around this would be for you to run cycles with gear you have never used before. Off the wall stuff like DHB and so on....


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## Racepicks (Aug 25, 2018)

Sully said:


> Since I’ve already mucked up this thread with a bunch of bitching, I’ll make an effort to get back on track.
> 
> Currently I’m using:
> 400mg Test E- every 3 days
> ...



Mucking up the thread??? Are you kidding?  I’m glad you are here to contribute.  Your knowledge is appreciated.


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## Getbiger (Aug 25, 2018)

My thoughts on cycles I've ran.

For growth my sweet spot seems to be pretty simple. Test no higher than 500 mg with some mast and an oral thrown in here and there seems to be just right with minimal sides. Anything over or adding a nandrolone in I get gyno no matter what I do even with impeccable bloods.

For leaning out 250 mg test with 350 tren 350 mast seems to do the job great. But I get sides with that cycle. Lethargy, insomnia on the last week or so, and an uncontrollable sex drive.


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> Race that's a tuff spot to be in buddy. The reason we surge and cruise or stop is so the body can re-set and except the same amounts of gear with a positive anabolic response. Staying on for a long ride will change your set points to anabolics and cause you to NEED more and more to grow. That's how so many of the "pro's" end up on huge amounts of gear. Their bodies have developed a tolerance to high doses from titrating up over the years because they never come off. *That combined with the mind set "more is more" and there off to the races.* One other way around this would be for you to run cycles with gear you have never used before. Off the wall stuff like DHB and so on....



OK, CG. I saw what you did there!! "That combined with the mind set "more is more" and there off to the races.".  Off to the Races 

Seriously, when I say I have been on for years non-stop.....I mean I have been on, close to 8 years, non-stop.  Being honest, most of the time it is pretty much TRT doses (200mg./week).  When I do ramp up, I still stay under 1 gram of Test per week.  I believe last year when this test was performed, I was on 300mg. Testosterone/3 times per week.


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## Concreteguy (Aug 26, 2018)

Love the numbers buddy. The amounts you do are only relevant to you and my post still stands relevant to you. The odds are if you jacked your none cruise numbers up a few click you would experience new growth. YOU KNOW you cant repeat the same actions and expect a different out come. This is when all things are on point. You may want to try switching out gear for other, new gear that's different in the same amounts first? Were not talking about healthy, this is about growth right? Because there's NOTHING healthy about it. Just levels of how unhealthy your going to go and then HRT.


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread.  Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano.  I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions.  I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.
> 
> Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.
> 
> ...



First I gotta say is that everything I'd say was already here by Sully - even the disclaimer 



To answer your question directly - 

In regard to testosterone, I believe that anybody is putting their health in jeopardy and sacrificing at least a little bit of long term well-being if they run gram or more - regardless of their bloodwork and feeling. 
there are changes that are not detected by either and it's simply as it is. Is is more harmful than common vices? Probably not. 

There are of course people, for whom 250 will be too much already, but there are no people who can say that 1000 does nothing negative is what I'm trying to say. 

And we all will remember all the blasts we've ever done, when we have to take a piss 20 times a night as we get older, and wonder if we didn't speed it up a good few years. 





To add a few personal anecdotes (as there really is nothing to add to Sully's and other's posts) - 

I have ran test at 1-1.5 grams and maintained perfect bloods and BP of 120/80. Was a great blast and I got long-term gains out of it - significantly more than from 750. I'd go as far as to say that's the sweet spot I'm able to utilize well. 

My neighbor who we used to call tiny Steve, because he was weighing a bit over 300 pounds and benching over 500, felt like dying on 500 test, with all his blood markers going down the shitter deeper than they already were. On the other hand running 1 gram of tren only he pretty much maintained both his BP and blood markers for a good while. 



It's all individual and if someone has easy answers to questions like that, I'd be vary.




I'd also like to say, that I don't believe in resets that Concreteguy advocates. 

As far as I know, using anabolics actually makes you MORE sensitive to anabolics (even your own test) - even in long term. 

I'm sure some study could be dug up, but unfortunately I don't have the time to look it up, so you are free to consider this input of mine irrelevant. 


I'd attribute pros using extremely high dosage more to diminishing returns and the fact hey already hold absurd amounts of mass than to "desentitization." 

5 grams of test won't be 5 times better than 1 gram, but if they are 10% better it gives them the edge necessary to win.
They also need more anabolics just to maintain the mass they have. 


In my opinion b&c (with cruise being REAL cruise dosages < 250mg/wk) is less detrimental to health than going off with or without PCT and then hopping back on.


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

Thanks for your input, Jano!  Some people may not agree with what you posted.  Most of us on the forums develop our beliefs based on what others have told us, and in many cases, by our own personal experiences with Anabolic Steroids.  In the event that people are not familiar with your background here on Anasci, can you briefly point out your resume as a trained medical professional.


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Thanks for your input, Jano!  Some people may not agree with what you posted.  Most of us on the forums develop our beliefs based on what others have told us, and in many cases, by our own personal experiences with Anabolic Steroids.  In the event that people are not familiar with your background here on Anasci, can you briefly point out your resume as a trained medical professional.



I honestly don't feel it's necessary - med school didn't teach me almost anything about anabolic androgenic steroids and my career is utterly unremarkable and not connected to this field at all. 

Most I know is from self education.  

What school taught me is mostly to look even for unexpected implications and to review all data - *look for sources, verify them and retain only what proves to be correct. *

Also, there are many people in the medical field, who claim to have magical cures and all the answers, but when you start looking at it in the depth, their stories fall apart. 

I find it's the same in this business and knowing how to spot that kind of people saves a lot of headache.


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

Well, in any case, your thorough explanations on testing, chemical compounds, and their interactions with the human body speaks for itself.  

Let me ask you this.  You say that Sully's post pretty much illustrates your beliefs.  So, predicting what these PEDs will do to a person is impossible due to age, health, and genetics of each individual.  Correct?


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

I'm sure there are some newbies that are looking for information and may stumble across this thread.  If you want my opinion on Anabolic Steroids and if you should use them, I'll take you back to "Old School".  

Train hard without PEDs for a time to build a base to add on muscle.  Use dieting and cardio to become lean.  Begin with a very basic small cycle of 8 to 10 weeks.  You will be amazed how much muscle you will add in this time, providing you TRAIN HARD and CONSISTENTLY.


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Well, in any case, your thorough explanations on testing, chemical compounds, and their interactions with the human body speaks for itself.
> 
> Let me ask you this.  You say that Sully's post pretty much illustrates your beliefs.  So, predicting what these PEDs will do to a person is impossible due to age, health, and genetics of each individual.  Correct?



Thank you. 

And exactly! 

AAS (and training in conjunction with their use!) have a myriad of effect, each of which is influenced by many other factors.


From genetic (race and other genetic heritage) through the diseases one had as a child dozens of years ago (which could've been asymptomatic, but for example negatively influenced the workload capacity of kidneys which might be exceeded with 'enhanced' training) to one's current diet, or even the amount of sleep. 

All of these can influence response and negative effects heavily.


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I'm sure there are some newbies that are looking for information and may stumble across this thread.  If you want my opinion on Anabolic Steroids and if you should use them, I'll take you back to "Old School".
> 
> Train hard without PEDs for a time to build a base to add on muscle.  Use dieting and cardio to become lean.  Begin with a very basic small cycle of 8 to 10 weeks.  You will be amazed how much muscle you will add in this time, providing you TRAIN HARD and CONSISTENTLY.



I agree and would like to add some health pointers:

1. If you plan second cycle before you finish the first consider B&C - it's easier on the body in my opinion ( I'd be happy to have a discussion about this )
2. Stay healthy. Diet, sleep, general well-being. Even emotional well-being - relationships are affected as well - consider that. 
3. Being big is inherently unhealthy - the bigger you are the bigger the trade off. 
4. Being too lean as well. 10-14% is ideal healthwise, consider that. 
5. Be conservative with doses AND compounds. Less is more. 
6. Avoid anything that has research in its name. If the compound hadn't been used and researched for dozens of years avoid it. 
7. While your muscles can recover from training much much harder while on, your internal organs can't. Don't go crazy with the volume. 
8. Estrogen is your friend, don't crash it unless you have estrogen related issues. 


I've seen health complications from breaking any of the rules above.


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

janoshik said:


> 1. If you plan second cycle before you finish the first consider B&C - it's easier on the body in my opinion ( I'd be happy to have a discussion about this )



By all means, please elaborate on this.


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> By all means, please elaborate on this.



Period of extreme hormonal disbalance after ceasing use of Anabolic wrecks havoc upon blood health markers by itself. 

Combine that with mental health aspects (men really are not used to PMSing hard, to put it that way), possible depression/ED issues and accelerated loss of hard earned muscle and it's a recipe for disaster. 

However, what I consider the most detrimental to health are the drugs commonly used in PCT. 

Most people don't give it second though, but those drugs carry risks much higher than responsible use of anabolics does and therefore should be, imo, avoided as much as possible. 



Staying on real cruise dose - 100-150 mg/wk carries almost no detrimental effect of AAS use and avoids the issues mentioned above as well.


___

I wrote the above as a person, who went off with no PCT, no issues and bouncing right back on normal levels several times over the years. 
(I was simply so busy I forgot to cruise for several months) 

No issues at all for me, but we are not all the same.


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

janoshik said:


> Period of extreme hormonal disbalance after ceasing use of Anabolic wrecks havoc upon blood health markers by itself.
> 
> Combine that with mental health aspects (men really are not used to PMSing hard, to put it that way), possible depression/ED issues and accelerated loss of hard earned muscle and it's a recipe for disaster.
> 
> ...



When I first started using Anabolic Steroids back around 1988, I don't know of anyone using PCT.  Basically, the way I was taught was that you cycle up to your predetermined amount of compounds, for 8 weeks, then you cycle down to the 100ml/150ml you mentioned then you come off completely for 24 weeks.


Are you describing something similar, or are you saying to stay "on" permanently?


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> When I first started using Anabolic Steroids back around 1988, I don't know of anyone using PCT.  Basically, the way I was taught was that you cycle up to your predetermined amount of compounds, for 8 weeks, then you cycle down to the 100ml/150ml you mentioned then you come off completely for 24 weeks.
> 
> 
> Are you describing something similar, or are you saying to stay "on" permanently?



Honestly, the way you describe it is how a lot of people that I know do it - I did pretty much the same (forgot to stop using after running 150-200 mg for god knows how long after a blast) and it turned out well for me. Maybe it could be the reason? I don't know. 


However, what I'm saying is that it's in my opinion better to stay on 100 mg/wk indefinitely instead of going off completely, under the condition that one desires to use AAS ['blast'] again.


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## Racepicks (Aug 26, 2018)

Interesting....I've always believed that the cycles I did in my early 30's, without PCT was the reason that my Testosterone Serum level was 146ng/dl before I began Anabolic Steroid use again in my early 40's.  At that time, my Doctor prescribed Testim.  It raised my levels to 600ng/dl., after which I decided to self-medicate.  For all intents and purposes, I'm going to be using Testosterone for the rest of my life.


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## janoshik (Aug 26, 2018)

>without PCT was the reason that my Testosterone Serum level was 146ng/dl 

You might be right about that. And damn, 146 is really low.


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## Racepicks (Aug 27, 2018)

janoshik said:


> >without PCT was the reason that my Testosterone Serum level was 146ng/dl
> 
> You might be right about that. And damn, 146 is really low.



As low as my Testosterone Serum level was, getting the Testim was still like pulling teeth.  The Doctor was telling me that 200ng/dL was in the normal range.


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## Racepicks (Aug 27, 2018)

This is a pretty random thought.  I’m sure that not enough attention is paid to this area of Anabolic Steroid use.  I just read a post on a different thread about post-injection pain.  Of course, to most of us, it is not out of the ordinary.  But people worry about infection, and well they should!

I remember Bostin Lloyd telling people that there is no problem using Slin Pins more than once.  I’m sure many people have used syringes and needles more than once.  “Hey, I ran out of pins and I need to stick myself today”.  It is thinking like this that will have you in the Emergency Room.  Having a chunk of muscle cut out doesn’t sound like fun. (Ask Bostin Lloyd). Here is the process I have used for years without any complications.

Here is what you need:

Alcohol Wipes
Brand new Syringes
Brand new Needles
(Or Insulin Syringes)

The only thing I reuse is my drawing pin, which I may use 5 or 6 times.  I just slide back in it’s plastic wrapper to keep it clean.

So...take vial that you want to draw from.  Open the Alcohol Wipe and clean the rubber stopper on the vial.  Open the syringe and slide (or twist on) your drawing pin onto the syringe.  Remove plastic cover from drawing pin and insert into vial.  Draw the amount of oil you want.  Pull needle from vial and replace plastic cover on drawing needle.  Remove needle from syringe and replace with brand new needle.  Push plunger of syringe to remove air in syringe, while pointing the needle up, allow a few drops of oil to coat needle.  Take Alcohol Wipe and clean area you will be injecting.  After injection, pull out needle from skin and wipe injection area with Alcohol Wipe.  That’s it.

This might sound like a headache,  but I always want to be safe and not sorry.


----------



## Firemike36 (Aug 27, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Look, I'm not trying to promote high dosages.  I'm not saying people should not take high doses.  People will do what they want to do and probably not admit they are using high amounts of AAS, out if fear they will be flamed for being reckless.  What I want to do is get an idea what people are actually using.  I will not allow anyone to get criticized for their doses.  If someone actually trusts us all and lays out their usage, feel free to ask questions, but DO NOT FLAME.  I will ban anyone who shuts down this discussion.



I'm super comfortable at, and feel like I get good gains at 600-900mg/week (as most of the Test E these days seems to dosed at 300mg/cc) Ive gone higher in the past but I don't feel that I increase my gains by doing so.  IMO at that point I look to add something else to my cycle.  During my last prep I was a bit closer to 1200mg of test-e (among other things).  I think 1g of test is fine if you tolerate it ok.  Over the years myself (and a lot of other bbers I've known) have always lingered around 750mg/wk so whats another 250mg? I've never had much of a problem with estrogen or needing a bunch of AI's.  To be honest I never did PCT in my 20's and 30's I just cycled up and cycled back down and then took a few months off inbetween cycles.  That always seemed to work well for me.  I gotten blood work done consistently over the years at least once or twice a year and things never got to far off staying at those levels.


----------



## Racepicks (Aug 27, 2018)

Firemike36 said:


> I'm super comfortable at, and feel like I get good gains at 600-900mg/week (as most of the Test E these days seems to dosed at 300mg/cc) Ive gone higher in the past but I don't feel that I increase my gains by doing so.  IMO at that point I look to add something else to my cycle.  During my last prep I was a bit closer to 1200mg of test-e (among other things).  I think 1g of test is fine if you tolerate it ok.  Over the years myself (and a lot of other bbers I've known) have always lingered around 750mg/wk so whats another 250mg? I've never had much of a problem with estrogen or needing a bunch of AI's.  To be honest I never did PCT in my 20's and 30's I just cycled up and cycled back down and then took a few months off inbetween cycles.  That always seemed to work well for me.  I gotten blood work done consistently over the years at least once or twice a year and things never got to far off staying at those levels.



I believe getting regular bloodwork done on and off cycle is the best practice.  I'll be the first to admit, I DON'T DO THAT!.  I know I should, but it gets expensive and time consuming.  I also know that not performing regular bloodwork is a "Russian Roulette" type of situation.  Dante Trudel would tell me, "if you can't afford to monitor your health, then you can't afford to practice our lifestyle,

BTW, thanks Big Mike.  Your views are valued!:headbang:


----------



## Sully (Aug 27, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> This is a pretty random thought.  I’m sure that not enough attention is paid to this area of Anabolic Steroid use.  I just read a post on a different thread about post-injection pain.  Of course, to most of us, it is not out of the ordinary.  But people worry about infection, and well they should!
> 
> I remember Bostin Lloyd telling people that there is no problem using Slin Pins more than once.  I’m sure many people have used syringes and needles more than once.  “Hey, I ran out of pins and I need to stick myself today”.  It is thinking like this that will have you in the Emergency Room.  Having a chunk of muscle cut out doesn’t sound like fun. (Ask Bostin Lloyd). Here is the process I have used for years without any complications.
> 
> ...



Reusing pins, ever, for any reason, has always been a No-Go for me. Pins are super cheap, and readily available on Amazon Prime. If I run out, then I’m just going to miss a shot or 2 until new pins arrive in the mail. It’s just not worth the risk, even if they’re just for drawing from the vial. Consequently, in all my years of these endeavors I’ve never once had to deal with an infection or abscess from pinning. Some of that can definitely be attributed to luck, but part has to be due to an obsessive attention to detail and cleanliness. 

I also take my stash box out monthly and wash it thoroughly, and soak it in alcohol, just as a precaution. At the same time, all my u used, sealed vials get wiped down with sterile alcohol swabsits a quick, inexpensive precaution to avoid costly deductibles and having Doctors unnecessarily asking questions that I would prefer to not answer. Oh, and always make sure the swabs and alcohol prep pads you use are labeled “sterile”. I can probably dig up the university study that demonstrates why, if anyone absolutely needs to know. 

Once again, that’s only my opinion, and my method. Your mileage my vary. I’m not looking down on or judging anyone that does otherwise.


----------



## Firemike36 (Aug 28, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I believe getting regular bloodwork done on and off cycle is the best practice.  I'll be the first to admit, I DON'T DO THAT!.  I know I should, but it gets expensive and time consuming.  I also know that not performing regular bloodwork is a "Russian Roulette" type of situation.  Dante Trudel would tell me, "if you can't afford to monitor your health, then you can't afford to practice our lifestyle,
> 
> BTW, thanks Big Mike.  Your views are valued!:headbang:



Well don't make me sound like too much of a saint LOL, I just get yearly physicals and usually have to get labs done for one thing or another at some point outside of that.  I've fortunate enough to have decent health insurance through work.  For most health plans labs are part of preventative maintenance and free.  So its a no brainer to get them done all you have is the out of pocket for the office visit.  When I was in my 20's I could care less about them but being 45 now and you start having some bros around you with heart issues or having heart attacks that shit worries me after being on gear all of these years.  Total Russian Roulette to not check into whats happening on the inside.  Get that sh*t done my man


----------



## Racepicks (Aug 29, 2018)

I firmly believe that some people are genetically predisposed for good health.  While some people live a lifetime seemingly battling one health issue after another, others seem to live their lives in virtually excellent health.

Why do I bring this up?  Because I think if we are going to discuss what dosages of Anabolic Steroids affect health, we should also consider my theory on health.  That is, if you are one of the lucky ones who possess this genetic predisposition, you will probably not be affected by higher dosages.


How can I reach this conclusion?  Let's look at it this way.


There is a 35 year old fitness trainer, he follows an ultrahealthy diet.  Obviously trains every day, cardio, etc., and is the picture of a healthy human being.......except, he suffers a massive heartattack.  How does that happen?


Then there is the 92 year old man who smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, consumes a few shots of whiskey everyday, eats whatever he wants....and is still alive at 92?

I know, this is a simplistic comparison.  But I believe you see what my premise is.  I would like to hear what others think.


----------



## janoshik (Aug 30, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I firmly believe that some people are genetically predisposed for good health.  While some people live a lifetime seemingly battling one health issue after another, others seem to live their lives in virtually excellent health.
> 
> Why do I bring this up?  Because I think if we are going to discuss what dosages of Anabolic Steroids affect health, we should also consider my theory on health.  That is, if you are one of the lucky ones who possess this genetic predisposition, you will probably not be affected by higher dosages.
> 
> ...



Well, you certainly are right - health is 80% luck/genetics. 

But we can influence the remaining 20% and we shouldn't disregard doing that. Percentages obviously pulled out of certain orifice 


Regarding the example - I can tell you that the 92 year old packaday smoker will be pretty miserable. 
Had he not smoked, his quality of life would be much different.


----------



## ketsugo (Aug 30, 2018)

Sully said:


> I’ll preface my post with the same disclaimer as yours. This is all just my opinion and I don’t claim to infallible in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Every thing sully says far as I see spot on !!!!


----------



## tri-terror (Aug 30, 2018)

Best cycle I ever did in terms of looks AND how I felt was a doozy.  Not sure I'll ever go this high again but:
900mg week eq
100mg test prop eod
100mg tren ace ed
100mg var ed

I never felt much different going up to a gram or more of test, just more sides.  I've always done better with a small test base and cranking up the anabolics like tren, eq, npp


----------



## Racepicks (Aug 31, 2018)

I'm not sure why the fad of small Test/large Anabolic doses.  I'm not saying it is wrong, but all of a sudden this is the "in" thing.  I have always, and still believe, that Test is best.  But that's just me!  Jano, did you say you were not a big believer either?  Is their a scientific reason for your view?


----------



## janoshik (Sep 1, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I'm not sure why the fad of small Test/large Anabolic doses.  I'm not saying it is wrong, but all of a sudden this is the "in" thing.  I have always, and still believe, that Test is best.  But that's just me!  Jano, did you say you were not a big believer either?  Is their a scientific reason for your view?


I feel like keeping it easy and simple is a good way to prevent the complications. 

High testosterone always had good results for me, so why complicate it and risk additional problems? 
Especially if it's not necessary. 

That's my view.


----------



## Sully (Sep 2, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I'm not sure why the fad of small Test/large Anabolic doses.  I'm not saying it is wrong, but all of a sudden this is the "in" thing.  I have always, and still believe, that Test is best.  But that's just me!  Jano, did you say you were not a big believer either?  Is their a scientific reason for your view?



Ok, here’s my take on low Test/high whatever, since I have been a vocal proponent of it. 

1.) It’s not for everyone. I’ve said this many times before. If Test works well for you and doesn’t give you a lot of side effects, then run all the Test you want. Low Test works better for certain people than it does for others. We’re back to the whole bio-individuality topic that we touched on earlier in this thread. Everyone responds differently to every hormone. Test is no exception. 

2.) Low Test/high Androgens works best for those that experience side effects related to estrogen conversion. Especially when it comes to Tren, lots of guys experience really severe side effects. I learned this the hard way. I dealt with bad anxiety attacks, gyno, night sweats, Trensomnia, cystic acne, etc. For me, the only solution that really worked was lowering my Test dose to TRT levels. I’ve suggested lowering Test for friends that are struggling with Deca-dick. They were going the usual route of running twice as much Test as Deca and it still wasn’t working. Lowering Test, and adding in a small dose of Aromasin, typically solves most of their problems, IMHO. I’m going to guesstimate about an 80% success rate. 

3.) I don’t see it as a fad. Personally, I regard it as another tool in my toolbox. I still usually recommend that guys start with the old school method of cycle structure. If they get into it and start having problems, then I recommend they lower Test and add in a small dose AI (if not already running one) as a potential solution. I will never believe that there is only one “right way” to do anything in any of this. Just as there are multiple ways to train and different ways to structure a diet, there are many different ways to structure a steroid cycle. If guys are recommending it as a one size fits all solution to everyone, I would simply ignore those people and move on. 

Unfortunately, this is one topic that I have absolutely no science to back up my position with. I just know that it works for me, and has worked for the majority of guys that I’ve recommended that try it. It’s not 100%, though. I admit that freely. Then again, neither is the more conventional method of high Test. High Test just doesn’t work for me. The side effects are rough and I’m unable to fully control some of them, even with a large dose of AI’s. It’s just the reality of my particular body chemistry. 

Hopefully I was able to clarify a few points about the topic. I’m not proselytizing or evangelizing for it, just trying to explain that it’s a viable alternative for those that can’t seem to avoid side effects any other way, no more, no less.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 2, 2018)

You expressed your points clearly, Sully.  Personally, I have never had any issues with Estrogen, so the traditional Testosterone levels are fine for me.  As far as being a "Fad", I guess we will see what happens when the "next best thing" comes down the line.

I don't want to minimize low Test/high Androgen doses or the theories behind it, the bottom line is, stick with what works for you.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 2, 2018)

While I'm on the subject of high test doses, I'm wondering what people think about this:

Back in the not too distance past, the rhetoric we heard was that if a little Testosterone was good, a ton more was better.

The theory was presented as a fact.  You could grow on 750mgs. of test.  You can grow even more on a gram.  You will get even bigger using 2 grams.  Actually, if you could tolerate the sides, 4 or 5 grams would make you a monster.  Basically, there is no point of diminishing returns.  I'm sure there are still many people who believe this is what the Pros do, despite their claims of low doses combined with great genetics.  Jano and Sully, what do you guys think?


----------



## janoshik (Sep 2, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> While I'm on the subject of high test doses, I'm wondering what people think about this:
> 
> Back in the not too distance past, the rhetoric we heard was that if a little Testosterone was good, a ton more was better.
> 
> The theory was presented as a fact.  You could grow on 750mgs. of test.  You can grow even more on a gram.  You will get even bigger using 2 grams.  Actually, if you could tolerate the sides, 4 or 5 grams would make you a monster.  Basically, there is no point of diminishing returns.  I'm sure there are still many people who believe this is what the Pros do, despite their claims of low doses combined with great genetics.  Jano and Sully, what do you guys think?



I think I talked about that a few posts ago. Diminishing results make it a bad idea for your common gym-goer to run absurdly high doses - however if you are a Pro, then every 1% of difference plays in your favor and they'll do it. 

Injecting more will always be easier than doing one more hour of training or forcing one more meal down when you are already on verge of puking.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 2, 2018)

janoshik said:


> I think I talked about that a few posts ago. Diminishing results make it a bad idea for your common gym-goer to run absurdly high doses - however if you are a Pro, then every 1% of difference plays in your favor and they'll do it.
> 
> Injecting more will always be easier than doing one more hour of training or forcing one more meal down when you are already on verge of puking.



Without getting back the point that everyone will react differently, is there truly a point of diminishing results?  As a general rule, will your gains increase as you increase your doses?

I'm not promoting this as a good idea, in fact, I personally think using 2,3,4 etc, grams will definitely cause anyone serious problems in the long (and possibly short) run.  I'm just interested what the consensus of the forum will be.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 2, 2018)

Well, there is a point at which all the androgen receptors are saturated, so AAS won't help any more past that and then there's a point at which the difference between 60% and 80% of activated receptors (made up numbers) won't do nothing without ancillary hormones (thinking insulin).


----------



## odin (Sep 3, 2018)

I get too many side effects from high test. I prefer to use about 500mg and I add 1-2 other compounds at similar doses. The older I get the less I tend to use. Moving forward I will mainly use test, primo, deca and mast and avoid tren and orals.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 3, 2018)

janoshik said:


> Well, there is a point at which all the androgen receptors are saturated, so AAS won't help any more past that and then there's a point at which the difference between 60% and 80% of activated receptors (made up numbers) won't do nothing without ancillary hormones (thinking insulin).



So...help me understand.  Once receptors are saturated, what can one do to reset these receptors.  Looks like we're back to cycling again.  Go off for a few months?  Seems to me if receptors get saturated, if you never come off, they will never reset.  So, that makes the theory of staying on non-stop suspect.  Seems that your gains will eventually stall if you never give your receptors a rest.  What am I missing?


----------



## Duluxx (Sep 3, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> So...help me understand.  Once receptors are saturated, what can one do to reset these receptors.  Looks like we're back to cycling again.  Go off for a few months?  Seems to me if receptors get saturated, if you never come off, they will never reset.  So, that makes the theory of staying on non-stop suspect.  Seems that your gains will eventually stall if you never give your receptors a rest.  What am I missing?





I would like to understand this better also. I did read something awhile ago about hgh helping with this. I’ve never run hgh so I couldn’t say for sure.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 3, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> So...help me understand.  Once receptors are saturated, what can one do to reset these receptors.  Looks like we're back to cycling again.  Go off for a few months?  Seems to me if receptors get saturated, if you never come off, they will never reset.  So, that makes the theory of staying on non-stop suspect.  Seems that your gains will eventually stall if you never give your receptors a rest.  What am I missing?



You don't reset them. There is not such thing as 'resetting' androgen receptors.

Saturated receptors = all are activated. That's what you want.  You have limited amount of receptors which can be activated and going 'off' won't change that. 


Also, it's more complicated than that:

When you are natty, you have for example 1000 receptors in a cell. 

Now, let's say that 400 of them are activated on average. 


Now you run a nice cycle of 600 test and you increase the saturation to 750 activated receptors. You get nice results. 


Now you add 5 grams of trenbolone in there and you have 950 activated receptors. You run it for 5 years straight. The cell increases the number of receptors to 1200 over the 5 years, because of extreme stimulation. The activated receptors remain at 95% - so over time it slowly rises to 1140, so the tren actually becomes more efficient over time. (but your results get worse nevertheless, because you can't gain as much mass when you are 350 lbs mass monster compared to 135 lbs wimp)

Now, you drop back to natty. But you still have activated 40% of the receptors, but now the 40% is not 400 receptors, but 480. So you get significantly better results from your natty levels. If you remain on natty test levels, the number of receptors will slowly (it could take 5-20 years for all I can tell) fall back to 1000... But you actually get results from a heavy cycle for 20 years  

This had been extensively talked about during some sciencey talks I've been on with WADA - it's part of the reason why the people who get caught doping get quite long bans. 




You also have insulin receptors and they work on VERY different principle... You actually can reset those and many do  


I apologize if this is badly explained, it's really hard for me to do that in English.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 3, 2018)

Very interesting, this is exactly the type of information that I hoped would be explored in this thread.

 I was always under the impression that that after a certain amount of time using Anabolic Steroids, you would reach a point where all your Androgen Receptors were saturated.  That would result in a "plateau" in your progress.

Let me paraphrase what you just posted:

1) Your goal is to saturate (activate) all your Androgen Receptors.  

2) Over time of continuous Steroid use, your cells will increase the number of receptors, resulting in bigger gains.

As far as insulin, (now I show my lack of knowledge) Insulin unlocks receptors resulting in the cells ability to gouge itself with fuel.  This results in muscle growth.  Tell me where I'm wrong.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 3, 2018)

The plateau is very real, but as far as I can tell it's not caused by body adapting to AAS use, but rather by different factors. 

1) Yes, that's what you want. [You can't however, due to side effects]
2) Yes. 


You are completely right, insulin 'unlocks' GLUT-4 glucose receptors, making the cell gouge itself. 

By using insulin in my example I meant that with insulin the body adapts to it - and you need more and more insulin. So with using insulin you actually need to 'reset the receptors.'  For example if you use 30 ius of slin for bodybuilding purposes you will get huge fast and then, after few weeks it suddenly has no effect. (the adaptation is pretty rapid, especially with abuse of high doses and from my experience as well)


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 3, 2018)

janoshik said:


> 1) Yes, that's what you want. [You can't however, due to side effects]



I would have thought that saturating all your receptors would not be possible due to metabolic or biological factors.  What side effects could you expect in an attempt to saturate these receptors?

Someone did mention the possibility of HGH enhancing receptor saturation in some way.  Do you see that as a possibility.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 3, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I would have thought that saturating all your receptors would not be possible due to metabolic or biological factors.  What side effects could you expect in an attempt to saturate these receptors?
> 
> Someone did mention the possibility of HGH enhancing receptor saturation in some way.  Do you see that as a possibility.



Well, saturation of 100% receptors in not physically possible. What I mean by saturating them is a number close to 100%. 


Side effects expected would involve a lot of heartburn, high blood pressure and possibly acne 
But really, you'd probably get into risk of dying from malignant hypertension. 



HGH has nothing to do with androgen receptors at all.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 4, 2018)

janoshik said:


> HGH has nothing to do with androgen receptors at all.



I posted a link over in my HGH thread about the possibility that HGH could result in Hyperplasia.  I went ahead and posted the study here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439518/

If Hyperplasia is indeed a fact, that would result in more muscle cells.....and more receptors.

Do you think Hyperplasia induced by HGH is a reality?


----------



## Sully (Sep 4, 2018)

As it relates to androgen receptor activation, that’s where the value in products like Winstrol comes into play. As Test levels rise, your body produces more SHBG(sex hormone binding globulin) to help combat against excess androgens and maintain homeostasis. Substances like Winstrol help to free the Testosterone that is bound in SHBG, and allow a higher level of free Test, therefore allowing a higher saturation level of androgen receptors while using the same, or even lower, amount of Test. At least, that’s my understanding. 

I’m not personally a huge fan of Winstrol, for other reasons, but this is it’s most valuable potential use, IMHO.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 4, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I posted a link over in my HGH thread about the possibility that HGH could result in Hyperplasia.  I went ahead and posted the study here:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439518/
> 
> ...



I don't think that HGH can induce hyperplasia of muscle cells, just like the authors of that article, nor I do believe that HGH influences the satellite cell populations to induce their differentiation to muscle cells. (Though satellite cells are certainly worth looking into!) 


By increasing the number of receptors I generally meant within a single sell, but yes, having more muscle cells would certainly help.




Sully: Yes, you understand it perfectly. Of course winstrol exhibits its own effect on receptors as well. 


That's also how proviron works - very heavy SHBG affinity increases free testosterone.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 5, 2018)

janoshik said:


> nor I do believe that HGH influences the satellite cell populations to induce their differentiation to muscle cells. (Though satellite cells are certainly worth looking into!)



You say that Satellite Cells are certainly worth looking into.  How so?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26140708


----------



## SURGE (Sep 7, 2018)

janoshik said:


> I don't think that HGH can induce hyperplasia of muscle cells, just like the authors of that article, nor I do believe that HGH influences the satellite cell populations to induce their differentiation to muscle cells. (Though satellite cells are certainly worth looking into!)
> 
> 
> By increasing the number of receptors I generally meant within a single sell, but yes, having more muscle cells would certainly help.
> ...



I have been adding 25mg proviron to most test cycles for this purpose. I don't know exactly how much it increases free test but it has other benefits and is cheap so well worth adding in.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 8, 2018)

I saw this post over at ProMuscle from Lats.  It's going back 5 months or so, but I found it an interesting theory.  



LATS said:


> Yes sub q is superior way to do anabolics.. Test especially.. But one must watch how much goes into one area.. Minimal amounts into one area..  But I keep my test ( even blasting) at no more than 300 mgs.. So it's easy for me to SUBQ with little pain



I would like to hear Jano's view on it.  Kind of like a medical or psysiological point of view.  I have heard this Sub Q proceedure before, but I never gave it much creedence.  After hearing Lats, I may need to rethink my position.


----------



## squatster (Sep 9, 2018)

Ok
So has any one ever figured out what the best cycle would be to gain pure size? Duration? Migs?
What signs would your body tell you when it's done to stop?
How about cut cycle?


----------



## janoshik (Sep 9, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> You say that Satellite Cells are certainly worth looking into.  How so?
> 
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26140708



Well, if we could force them to proliferate and grow innervation, it would be a great fix to many terrible diseases/injuries. And would make it possible for humans to get awfully big


----------



## janoshik (Sep 9, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I saw this post over at ProMuscle from Lats.  It's going back 5 months or so, but I found it an interesting theory.
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to hear Jano's view on it.  Kind of like a medical or psysiological point of view.  I have heard this Sub Q proceedure before, but I never gave it much creedence.  After hearing Lats, I may need to rethink my position.



The main reasoning past preference of subq in case of HGH is the local side effects - any injection into the muscle can damage the muscle. 

I assume the same could be applied to oils. 

Effect-wise there is no difference, but there might be some difference in how fast the hormone gets released, but not very significant imo. 

It was theorized that subq injections change aromatization / redution to DHT rates of the hormone, due to different abundances of the the enzymes responsible in various tissues, however I don't believe it to be true.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 9, 2018)

janoshik said:


> The main reasoning past preference of subq in case of HGH is the local side effects - any injection into the muscle can damage the muscle.
> 
> I assume the same could be applied to oils.
> 
> ...



I understand that you don't buy into the theory but....

"change aromatization / redution to DHT rates of the hormone", I'm not following.  Are you saying that the theory was that Sub Q would result in less aromatization to DHT then intramuscular?

Anyway, bottom line, you think that injecting Testosterone Sub Q is just as effective as intramuscular.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 9, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I understand that you don't buy into the theory but....
> 
> "change aromatization / redution to DHT rates of the hormone", I'm not following.  Are you saying that the theory was that Sub Q would result in less aromatization to DHT then intramuscular?
> 
> Anyway, bottom line, you think that injecting Testosterone Sub Q is just as effective as intramuscular.



I think the story was that subq aromatized less or something (or similar scenario - I'm honestly not sure). Don't really believe that. 

However, steroids become active only after blood esterases cleave off the ester. So it doesn't matter where does the hormone come from (subq, im...) it only gets to get active once it's in blood.


----------



## squatster (Sep 10, 2018)

squatster said:


> Ok
> So has any one ever figured out what the best cycle would be to gain pure size? Duration? Migs?
> What signs would your body tell you when it's done to stop?
> How about cut cycle?


It's crazy-
So many years of steroid use and no one can really can answer or want to answer this question. 
Not really sure why I would care any ways at my age.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 10, 2018)

squatster said:


> It's crazy-
> So many years of steroid use and no one can really can answer or want to answer this question.
> Not really sure why I would care any ways at my age.



It's not so much that no one wants to answer, it is more that no one CAN answer that question.

Let's start with Sully:



Sully said:


> I’ve always felt that it’s dangerous to state that a certain amount of gear, regardless of the hormone in question, is a “sweet spot”. Everyone responds differently to every hormone, and at different amounts. There can’t be one certain amount that just works best for everyone, there are just too many variables in play.



And go right to Jano:



janoshik said:


> First I gotta say is that everything I'd say was already here by Sully.
> 
> To answer your question directly -
> 
> ...



There has always been 3 totally different thoughts on dosages of AAS.

1) The more AAS you inject, the bigger and stronger you will get!  All the Camel crew does 5+ grams, and look how big Ramy and Roelly are!  You can argue for a 1 gram limit, but to be huge, you need 5+ grams!

2) As I posted at the beginning of this thread, Palumbo is on record as believing that 1 gram of Testosterone is the "Sweet Spot".  1 gram of Test, 600mg. Deca, add in some D-Bol and you are all set!


3) If you can't gain strength and size with 750mg. of Test, 300mg. Deca, in addition to a good diet.  Then you should consider taking up knitting!


My point is this.  In my opinion, all the above is true.  If you possess great genetics, then #3 will work for you.  If you have less than ideal genetics, #2 should work for you.  If your genetics suck, you just may see some significant results using #1.


Obviously, there are serious health concerns involved with all 3.  If you are concerned about your health, it may be beneficial for you to not to inject these drugs at all.  


I would be remiss if I didn't add this final thought.

My personal opinion is this.....Do yourself and your family a favor and start your AAS usage at a very low dosage.  You will see great gains for your first cycle.  Bump your dosages up as you break plateaus.  And finally, do not venture too much over 1 gram to protect your health.


I am in no way an authority on this subject.  I am just expressing my thoughts....


----------



## squatster (Sep 11, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> It's not so much that no one wants to answer, it is more that no one CAN answer that question.
> 
> Let's start with Sully:
> 
> ...



Great answer man. 
I think you nailed it with all 3 answers my self.
It was what I was looking for and more. 
Thank you


----------



## Sully (Sep 11, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I saw this post over at ProMuscle from Lats.  It's going back 5 months or so, but I found it an interesting theory.
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to hear Jano's view on it.  Kind of like a medical or psysiological point of view.  I have heard this Sub Q proceedure before, but I never gave it much creedence.  After hearing Lats, I may need to rethink my position.



There was a study done on administering Test for HRT purposes several years ago. If I’m remembering correctly it was conducted by the VA, and maybe had some involvement by the Canadian Army? It started a lot of this subQ controversy. I seem to remember reading the study and not understanding how these guys were drawing their conclusions from the data that was presented, but it’s been a few years and I’m really fuzzy on the details. Lemme see if I can dig up a link to the study.


----------



## Sully (Sep 11, 2018)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17143361/


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 11, 2018)

Sully said:


> There was a study done on administering Test for HRT purposes several years ago. If I’m remembering correctly it was conducted by the VA, and maybe had some involvement by the Canadian Army? It started a lot of this subQ controversy. I seem to remember reading the study and not understanding how these guys were drawing their conclusions from the data that was presented, but it’s been a few years and I’m really fuzzy on the details. Lemme see if I can dig up a link to the study.



What's wrong with me???  In the face of overwhelming evidence.....I'm just not buying into it!

I'm going to try it myself.

I'm going to come off Testosterone completely.  Get a Testosterone Serum and Free Testosterone Test.  Then I'll Sub Q 250mg. of Testosterone for 4 weeks and see where my Test Serum and Free Test is.  I have quite a bit of scar tissue in my glute because of the hundreds of injections over the years.  If Sub Q is as effective as Intramuscular, that would be reason enough for people to re-think their opinion.


----------



## squatster (Sep 11, 2018)

I just wouldn't feel very comfortable with 1 to 3 cc under my skin just waiting to go some were


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 11, 2018)

If I was to use this method, I would certainly use multiple 1cc injections.  That does not concern me,  My concern would be how efficiently and effectively you body could assimilate the hormone.  Why have medical injections always been injected into the muscle?  I have no recollection of visiting a Physician and being injected Sub Q!


----------



## Sully (Sep 12, 2018)

The question is not “Does it work?”. Clearly, according to the study it works. The question is, “how does it work, when does it work, and in what way does it work?”. I don’t believe subcutaneous injections to be an every situation solution. As with all things, it has it’s time and place. 

Especially after trying it myself, it’s apparent that there is a specific situation where subQ is ideally implemented. That situation is for guys that run nothing more than low dose TRT/HRT, with small weekly injections of Test. Anything injection larger than 0.5cc will result in a big painful knot under the skin, with a noticeable brown mark on the skin over the knot. Even 1cc subQ is too damn big of an injection. 

Do not use subQ injections for an actual cycle! Unless you’re prepared to break up every injection into a 0.5cc daily dose, which may require multiple daily injections depending on how much gear you’re running, it just isn’t the right way to go about things. For a standard cycle, IM injections work perfectly.


----------



## Sandpig (Sep 12, 2018)

Sully said:


> The question is not “Does it work?”. Clearly, according to the study it works. The question is, “how does it work, when does it work, and in what way does it work?”. I don’t believe subcutaneous injections to be an every situation solution. As with all things, it has it’s time and place.
> 
> Especially after trying it myself, it’s apparent that there is a specific situation where subQ is ideally implemented. That situation is for guys that run nothing more than low dose TRT/HRT, with small weekly injections of Test. Anything injection larger than 0.5cc will result in a big painful knot under the skin, with a noticeable brown mark on the skin over the knot. Even 1cc subQ is too damn big of an injection.
> 
> Do not use subQ injections for an actual cycle! Unless you’re prepared to break up every injection into a 0.5cc daily dose, which may require multiple daily injections depending on how much gear you’re running, it just isn’t the right way to go about things. For a standard cycle, IM injections work perfectly.


Good advice.
I get a knot/ lump under my skin even when doing small doses.

I can't Imagine doing a full cc.


----------



## janoshik (Sep 12, 2018)

Sully said:


> The question is not “Does it work?”. Clearly, according to the study it works. The question is, “how does it work, when does it work, and in what way does it work?”. I don’t believe subcutaneous injections to be an every situation solution. As with all things, it has it’s time and place.
> 
> Especially after trying it myself, it’s apparent that there is a specific situation where subQ is ideally implemented. That situation is for guys that run nothing more than low dose TRT/HRT, with small weekly injections of Test. Anything injection larger than 0.5cc will result in a big painful knot under the skin, with a noticeable brown mark on the skin over the knot. Even 1cc subQ is too damn big of an injection.
> 
> Do not use subQ injections for an actual cycle! Unless you’re prepared to break up every injection into a 0.5cc daily dose, which may require multiple daily injections depending on how much gear you’re running, it just isn’t the right way to go about things. For a standard cycle, IM injections work perfectly.



Sully again got to it before me.


The studies were done on people running TRT doses, not bodybuilding. You can't subq (at least in one spot) 1 ml or more. 

General rule of thumb in the place where I came from years ago was to subq 0.5 ml maximum.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 12, 2018)

janoshik said:


> The main reasoning past preference of subq in case of HGH is the local side effects - any injection into the muscle can damage the muscle.
> 
> I assume the same could be applied to oils.
> 
> ...



When I asked the question initially, I was really not interested in injecting .5ml.  I thought it was obvious I was speaking in terms of multiple mls.  I should state the question more clearly.


So my apprehensions about Sub Q is valid.


----------



## Sully (Sep 13, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> So my apprehensions about Sub Q is valid.



Yes, you’re concerns are absolutely 100% correct. For a cycle with bodybuilding size doses it would be complete madness to try and do subQ injections. That amount of oil under the skin would cause a litany of problems. 

If one just does TRT, or even during the Cruise part of a B&C, subQ is ideal due to reductions in scar tissue.


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 16, 2018)

OK, after watching this weekend unfold it has spoken clearly to us all. What did it say? Even with genetics from God himself, a truly superior genetically superior BBer is only going to hold his chemically advanced condition and peek for what can be approximated between 5 to 7 years before the body stops responding favorably to gear on ANY dosage levels. Were not talking about gm rats pounding gear, were talking about the most advanced users in the world under professional supervision. We have once again watched the wheels fall off an incredibly successful Olympian and he didn't fade away. He looked markedly worse than just two years ago. 


  Is 5 to 7 years what we all have in our genetic "bag" to work with? Maybe were just watching our own futures unfold on a much higher level? Remember, EVERYTHING was on point with all the previous Olympians when they finally tubed inside this golden window. There can be one or maybe two exceptions here. But there is an undeniable pattern playing out.


 The Devil is always in the detail friends. IMO, this is worthy of a very deep conversation indeed.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 17, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> OK, after watching this weekend unfold it has spoken clearly to us all. What did it say? Even with genetics from God himself, a truly superior genetically superior BBer is only going to hold his chemically advanced condition and peek for what can be approximated between 5 to 7 years before the body stops responding favorably to gear on ANY dosage levels. Were not talking about gm rats pounding gear, were talking about the most advanced users in the world under professional supervision. We have once again watched the wheels fall off an incredibly successful Olympian and he didn't fade away. He looked markedly worse than just two years ago.
> 
> 
> Is 5 to 7 years what we all have in our genetic "bag" to work with? Maybe were just watching our own futures unfold on a much higher level? Remember, EVERYTHING was on point with all the previous Olympians when they finally tubed inside this golden window. There can be one or maybe two exceptions here. But there is an undeniable pattern playing out.
> ...



Wait, CG.  You need to expand on this!  Phil won 7 straight Olympias.  Ronnie and Lee won 8 straight.

If I follow what you're saying it's that that the reason Phil lost was because he could not utilize the benefits of AAS as efficiently as he did in the first 7 Olympias.  But Ronnie and Lee could.


Am I interpreting your thoughts correctly?

Let me give you an analogy:

Like any athk


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 17, 2018)

Yes and I did say there was a couple exceptions.


----------



## Sully (Sep 18, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> OK, after watching this weekend unfold it has spoken clearly to us all. What did it say? Even with genetics from God himself, a truly superior genetically superior BBer is only going to hold his chemically advanced condition and peek for what can be approximated between 5 to 7 years before the body stops responding favorably to gear on ANY dosage levels. Were not talking about gm rats pounding gear, were talking about the most advanced users in the world under professional supervision. We have once again watched the wheels fall off an incredibly successful Olympian and he didn't fade away. He looked markedly worse than just two years ago.
> 
> 
> Is 5 to 7 years what we all have in our genetic "bag" to work with? Maybe were just watching our own futures unfold on a much higher level? Remember, EVERYTHING was on point with all the previous Olympians when they finally tubed inside this golden window. There can be one or maybe two exceptions here. But there is an undeniable pattern playing out.
> ...



Are you 100% sure that’s the biggest takeaway from all that? Cuz that’s definitely not what I got out of it at all.


----------



## squatster (Sep 18, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Wait, CG.  You need to expand on this!  Phil won 7 straight Olympias.  Ronnie and Lee won 8 straight.
> 
> If I follow what you're saying it's that that the reason Phil lost was because he could not utilize the benefits of AAS as efficiently as he did in the first 7 Olympias.  But Ronnie and Lee could.
> 
> ...



Maybe 5 to 7 years once you hit your max of all maxes. Or not
Think it is safe to say that not one of us here will come close to hitting our 100% full potential.
I know even with age we don't dig as deep as we did. 
I am laying on the couch right now watching Fantom works and eating junk.
When I was in my 20's or 30's and even mid to late 40's I would have been stretching or doing sit up or working.
I think many many maxes come down to mental- it- just doesn't matter as much any more- the goil isn't as important enough any more with time.
If I heard it correctly on one of phils YouTube videos- he was eating 6500 cals pr day- weeks out from the Olympia-- mentality how do you do that time and time again.
Like Phil said - he can finnaly live life- FUCKING WOW
And I didn't even get into the drugs yet.
I have been doing juice for about 35 years now- the only problems I have had was when my calories aren't high enough on heavy cycles. Other then that nothing at all.
I would love to have some guidance on a kick ass cycle to see what a little of my potential could be before my time is up.
Sorry - got carried away like always
Not even sure if I added any thing to this thread or were I am with this chicken scratch of mine.
Sorry
Go around this post of mine


----------



## AGGRO (Sep 18, 2018)

Sully said:


> Are you 100% sure that’s the biggest takeaway from all that? Cuz that’s definitely not what I got out of it at all.



I agree. Phil has issues with his stomach. That will be because of many factors and drugs used could come into it. It's not that he suddenly has stopped responding or that his genetics have faded. Phil has had this issue for years and since the bad hernia it has only got worse. If Phil had Rhodens abs he would have won his 8th title easily. I am no fan of Phil either and happy he lost.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 18, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Wait, CG.  You need to expand on this!  Phil won 7 straight Olympias.  Ronnie and Lee won 8 straight.
> 
> If I follow what you're saying it's that that the reason Phil lost was because he could not utilize the benefits of AAS as efficiently as he did in the first 7 Olympias.  But Ronnie and Lee could.
> 
> ...



Sorry...Let me finish my thought.

What I was trying to get at is this.  What's the difference between Phil losing after winning 7 straight Olympias, or Tom Brady showing signs of aging after winning 5 Super Bowls?

Not that it's not a possibility but, people don't attribute Brady's decline to AAS use.  Only in our sport does everything boil down to drug use.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 18, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> Yes and I did say there was a couple exceptions.



I'm not saying you're wrong, CG.  I am trying to get you to expand what your thoughts are on AAS use as you advance in age.  I believe we're about the same age, but I never competed.  You have a much more relevant position to comment.

I began this thread as "My Thoughts" hoping I could get others to add theirs.  I believe your knowledge could add much more to the thread then mine could.


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 19, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Wait, CG.  You need to expand on this!  Phil won 7 straight Olympias.  Ronnie and Lee won 8 straight.
> 
> If I follow what you're saying it's that that the reason Phil lost was because he could not utilize the benefits of AAS as efficiently as he did in the first 7 Olympias.  But Ronnie and Lee could.
> 
> ...



 IMO comparing a quarter back to an Olympian is apples to ANYTHING other than an apple. On one side of the coin you have a incredibly talented athlete and on the other you have a chemistry experiment.
 Olympians aren't athletes requiring strength, coordination, agility , timing and GOD given talent. 
   Olympians are a combination of the desired genetics' to develop fast twitch muscle fiber, genetic muscle insertions that are tight and small, balanced bone structure, genetics to assimilate high levels of steroids with no uncontrollable side effects ((( AND ))) the drive, tenacity and ability to ender self inflected pain on a mental and physical level few will ever experience. With all of that in place you then must have the ability to eat. EAT BIG and eat huge caloric surpluses of bland boring food. Eat on a timer. EAT WHEN THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS EAT. Lastly there must be a internal driving force to couple all this with. The desire to wont to be the best is whats going to carry these guys through all the times there going to the gym hurting or eating when there not hungry and so on.

 Tom Brady, on 700mgs tren a week would no longer be Tom Brady. Comparing him as a natty aging to an aging chemical science experiment IMO, respectfully can't be done.   


 The point I was making is it would seam that there is a window even the best of the best are working around. They all seam to have a sweat spot and then fight to hold onto it and as they fade from it they eventually bluer from what they once were. Look at the Blade, Dexter Jackson. His legs are going away. But in a way he's an exception as well. Unlike the others going away he stays clean and ripped. But his kryptonite is his muscles wont hold the once desired mass. You know better than to think he doesn't realize this and implemented leg training to counter this into play. He cant stop it.


 Now you can say age is in play but look at the age of our new Mr O. I think it's 43. That 43 number will check mate most if not all age arguments in the Olympia debate. Again, I just feel theres a window. I don't think it's Rhodens age, I think he's now working inside of "his window". He just entered it later.  I also feel theres a window with use jurk weeds banging away too. This has little effect on the guys that just fire away with cycles and don't track them or amounts. I'm talking about the guys that have slowly titrated up and watched there gains relevant mg amounts. Almost all of the guys that have done this can tell you what I'm saying is true.


----------



## montego (Sep 19, 2018)

Think it boils down to how long your prime is and how much better you are then everyone else.

Even when Ronnie started to slide the last couple years, he was already so far ahead of everyone else it just got closer.


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 19, 2018)

Montego, all good points. But you also made my point. The reason he fade was his active window was going away. In reality it may have been much longer than his Olympia success. He was probably growing at his fastest well before stepping on stage. But again, my point was there is a "window" regardless of drug use that your going to maintain peek condition. I don't think it coincides with age either.


----------



## montego (Sep 20, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> Montego, all good points. But you also made my point. The reason he fade was his active window was going away. In reality it may have been much longer than his Olympia success. He was probably growing at his fastest well before stepping on stage. But again, my point was there is a "window" regardless of drug use that your going to maintain peek condition. I don't think it coincides with age either.


Yup. Totally agree.


----------



## ketsugo (Sep 20, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread.  Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano.  I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions.  I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Let me ask you a question? How long you been doing . As common sense and experience shows clearly there is no seeet spot unless you ask ingorant still beginner because they’ve learned nothin . Why because 90% of forum members no nothing . The term briscience is another term for asinine . I’ve you have lived the lifestyle over 30 plus years you’d know that these questions only the individual can answer . Start low use least amount needed . Or you’ll never find you paths period . One guy 200 mg could jeopardize his health others go 3 grams week and they feel great . So many factors variables : experience, cycles done ( correctly ) some never learn correctly. Lifestyle , eating sleeping habits , type of job , family no one can answer your questions. They will try because they all want to feel knowledgeable and important . A weak man looks in the eyes of others for his reflection. A strong true man stands alone confident in his own beliefs and conviction


----------



## ketsugo (Sep 20, 2018)

Sully said:


> I’ll preface my post with the same disclaimer as yours. This is all just my opinion and I don’t claim to infallible in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Wow you and I always seem to think alike


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 20, 2018)

ketsugo said:


> Let me ask you a question? How long you been doing . As common sense and experience shows clearly there is no seeet spot unless you ask ingorant still beginner because they’ve learned nothin . Why because 90% of forum members no nothing . The term brisience is another term for asinine .



Reading the beginning of your post, you asked me a question:

"How long you been doing.".  Doing what?  Posting on this board?  Perhaps you're asking "How have you been doing?"  I'm good, how about you?



ketsugo said:


> I’ve you have lived the lifestyle over 30 plus years you’d know that these questions only the individual can answer . Start low use least amount needed . Or you’ll never find you paths period . One guy 200 mg could jeopardize his health others go 3 grams week and they feel great . So many factors variables : experience, cycles done ( correctly ) some never learn correctly. Lifestyle , eating sleeping habits , type of job , family no one can answer your questions. They will try because they all want to feel knowledgeable and important . A weak man looks in the eyes of others for his reflection. A strong true man stands alone confident in his own beliefs and conviction



Now, the rest of your post.  That is exactly the kind of interaction I wanted.  Someone like you, with over 30 years in this game who is a respected member who newer members could and should listen to.  Thank you for giving your views.  I hope you continue to contribute.

You would be better served by leaving out the condescending beginning of your post.  The last thing I want is senior members intimidating newer members from asking questions because they fear they will be attacked.


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 21, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> *The last thing I want is senior members intimidating newer members from asking questions because they fear they will be attacked*.



I support this view 100%. We have to treat all member with common respect. I have seen newbs get mugged over at PM. They get beat up for just having a low post count. A form of hazing? If I could do something about it at PM I would, but I can't.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 21, 2018)

I began this thread, not because I consider myself an authority on AAS use but, to begin some dialogue on this forum.  As a matter of fact, as witnessed by the answers that have been posted to my questions, guys like Concreteguy, Sully, etc. possess a ton of knowledge I want to tap into.  I have been using AAS off and on for 30 years, the past 10 years mostly on.  My hope is that we all can share our experiences on this thread.  At the very least, perhaps we can prevent those younger guys, who have little or no experience, from making the same mistakes we did.

I invite any member who may be hesitant to post, because they have been flamed on other forums, to ask questions or add comments.  As stated by Concreteguy, we will not allow anyone to get attacked on this thread for their inexperience.


----------



## montego (Sep 22, 2018)

Dunno how I missed this thread.

I love the topic too.

When general health comes into the discussion the waters gets so muddy it's hard to give an opinion sometimes. I'm always very selective on the topics I discuss since I know at any time someone can see this info and run with it.

As far as how much test and gh could you use while trying to avoid negative health impacts down the road, I believe the answer is in your blood work.

We all know each person metabolizes hormones differently by being either more effecint or less. Personally, having an inflammatory disease I don't get the big elevation in igf when running gh like most do so, I in turn need to run a little more. Same goes with test. While 200mg puts most guys in the 800-1000 range, I only sit about 700. Body fat and other things come into play of course but overall I don't utilize the hormone as well as others.

This goes back to the blood work issue. Knowing what doses put you where is key.

Given you know what doses put youa in certain ranges, I believe that long periods of time above the upper end of normal for testosterone is playing with fire if done so for longer periods of time. Arterial wall hardening, and heart growth are almost certain to happen. They will happen with athletes in general but AAS definitely speeds up the process.

With gh you're playing with multiple things. Blood glucose issues, possible intestinal growth (still dunno if that's certain) and, the big one, the possibility of cancer growing faster if you do have it without knowing it.

In my opinion, staying in the normal range for igf and test most of the year is the best bet. A couple blasts a year might not impact you at all long term but, it might.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 22, 2018)

montego said:


> Dunno how I missed this thread.
> 
> I love the topic too.
> 
> ...



Absolutely!

Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics.  And I believe this 100%.  We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout!  Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.

The same is true with health.  Some people eat a healthy diet, run 5 miles per day.  They don't drink or smoke.  Then die of a heart attack at 38.  Others drink, smoke, and eat unhealthy foods, then live to be 96 years old,

Personally, I'm an "old man".  I have never spent a night in a hospital, never had a broken bone, I never even needed stitches.  I've rolled cars over on the interstate, been in fights, not even a scar.  Then, add on 30 years of AAS use.  Lucky, probably.  But I believe that healthy gene has more to do with it.

That being said, I realize I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow.  If that was the case, I would not be dumb enough to disassociate my AAS use with my misfortune.

This is why I want young people to realize, anything that you do that involves a risk, is like playing Russian roulette.  If you have health issues now, ask yourself, is it worth shortening your life to look good at the beach?


----------



## montego (Sep 22, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics.  And I believe this 100%.  We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout!  Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.
> 
> ...


Perfect points.

I love these topics btw.

On the forum I mod at we run weekly topics like this and it has been amazing.

Besides disturbing the knowledge, it brings interactions between the members aside from the regular ole stuff.

Good job! Keep em coming man!


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 22, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics.  And I believe this 100%.  We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout!  Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.
> 
> ...



 Some have a propensity to develop problems using AAS and some like you and me just don't. 

 I don't agree with 1000mgs of test being the "sweet spot". IMO a seasoned AAS user with mass and size in mind is going to need more if it's a stand alone drug. That very same 1000mgs is MUCH more effective with HGH and slin swimming in the blood. You know this. How you train will even effect your receptors and clearing. LOL, a question like that is "painted" with a very wide paint brush Race. Some drugs are mg to mg MUCH stronger. 1000mgs of tren? Masterone? It's just a loaded question to me. I'm surprised Yano didn't jump all over that point. Tren interacts differently with receptors also. Holy cow it goes on and on...…:action-smiley-064:


----------



## Concreteguy (Sep 22, 2018)

I think sarms are very interesting. A prison guard at my gym uses nothing but sarms and is fucking huge. Guy tells me the truth because I help him with diet and train off and on with him. It makes me scratch my head just looking at him. But he doesn't have a vein in his body. He looks all watered up. Osterine and MK677 at a reasonably dose every day. Dorian had a sarm in his mix of off season gear along with the basket full of other things. Knowing they attach to the same receptors as gear makes it even more of a conundrum. Go figure.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 23, 2018)

Concreteguy said:


> I think sarms are very interesting. A prison guard at my gym uses nothing but sarms and is fucking huge. Guy tells me the truth because I help him with diet and train off and on with him. It makes me scratch my head just looking at him. But he doesn't have a vein in his body. He looks all watered up. Osterine and MK677 at a reasonably dose every day. Dorian had a sarm in his mix of off season gear along with the basket full of other things. Knowing they attach to the same receptors as gear makes it even more of a conundrum. Go figure.



I was never impressed with SARMs.  Here was my protocol when I experimented with them:


MK 677 - 50mg. Once a day

CJ 1295 w/dac - 2mg. Once a day

GHRP 6 - 200mcg. Three times a day


My IGF-1 levels were the same as using 6iu's of HGH per day.


Some may argue that it proves that these high doses of peptides is better than using HGH, but the lethargy was almost unbearable.


----------



## Sully (Sep 24, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics.  And I believe this 100%.  We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout!  Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.
> 
> ...



For my money, this is the most important post in the whole thread. Genetics rule all. They won’t prevent you from achieving your goals, but shitty genetics will leave you perpetually playing catch up to the guys with great genetics. 

And the importance of health as it pertains to genetics can’t be understated. There will always be those guys that use huge amounts of gear. What separates the genetic have’s from the genetic have-not’s is how they respond to those large doses, both positively in the form of muscle growth, and negatively in the form of side effects. Ancillary drugs can only compensate for a certain amount of side effects before they cause their own sides. More is not always better. 

To some extent, we are all playing a dangerous game with our health. What exactly are the trade off’s? We have some likely suspects, and some possible outcomes but unfortunately, no one truly knows at this point. The number of unknowns and uncertainties that we’re dealing with at this point are mind boggling. As I said in an earlier post, there are just too many moving pieces to be able to point at one thing and say “That’s the culprit!”. 

The overall impact on our health is something we all need to take into consideration regularly. Just getting blood work done once a year isn’t sufficient to be able to say you’re healthy and nothing is wrong. Our long term health shouldn’t be something that’s in the back of our mind that we occasionally make a half hearted gesture toward recognizing and bringing to the forefront. It should be something we consider every single we make a decision. Do I really need to run Tren again? Is 100mg/day of Anavar too much? Is eating nothing but chicken and rice really the only way to diet down? Is that little pain in my shoulder just soreness, or should I have it looked at? Is how I perceive myself when I look in the mirror healthy? Am I sacrificing my relationship with the friends and family that love me just so I can be another roided-out meathead that doesn’t actually have what it takes to succeed at the highest levels of the sport? 

I’m just as guilty as anyone of making bad choices in my pursuit of Greek god status. Please don’t think that I’m passing judgement on anyone here. With time comes perspective, and my perspective on what I do as it relates to our pursuit of the perfect physique is evolving and changing daily. Parts of me still think that it’s all worth it. Other parts make me think I should walk away entirely. As with most things in life, maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle? I wish I had the answers, but that’s where I rely on the people here and their input. Guys like CG and Race that have more years in the gym than I have on this planet are the ones that help me see things from a different perspective, and I appreciate their contributions whole-heartedly. Maybe someday I’ll have the answers to all those questions. I just hope that when I do, it’s not too late.


----------



## Racepicks (Sep 30, 2018)

I was watching the latest "Ask Dave" episode on RXMuscle.  I find that, aside from Dave pushing his products, the content is pretty interesting.


THE TRUTH ABOUT MAGNESIUM! #askDave


One of the question he was asked was: If Dave Palumbo decided to add size again, aside from food and supplements, what anabolics would he use and at what dose.

His answer was:  HRT dose of Testosterone (100 to 200mg/wk - long ester) and Equipoise.  He said he is positive that this, along with increasing his food intake, would allow him to gain about 22lbs of muscle in 8 weeks.  (kind of an interesting response from a guy who, a few weeks ago, claimed that the "Sweet Spot" for Testosterone was 1 gram...well, whatever).

This made me think about a story I read in, I believe it was Muscular Development many years ago about Tom Platz.  He was recovering from an injury, I forgot if it was a torn bicep or a torn Pec, but he was extolling the virtues of a phenomenon called Muscle Memory.  This is a theory that once you gain size and lose it, whether it be from injury or just not training, once you return to the gym you will pack on that muscle very quickly. I wonder if Dave's experience has to do with Muscle Memory?

In any case, what do the more experienced guys think about Muscle Memory?  Does it exist?


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## Aton (Sep 30, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I was watching the latest "Ask Dave" episode on RXMuscle.  I find that, aside from Dave pushing his products, the content is pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> THE TRUTH ABOUT MAGNESIUM! #askDave
> ...





I do think there is and have always noticed after dieting down hard when I returned to bulking I gained back the size pretty quick and easy.
Now some will say losing size is just the depletion of stored glycogen and yes this is true to a degree but at some point you have to drop ur carbs to a point to continue to lose bf and this is where your body uses muscle as reserve energy supply to keep up w the demand you are asking of it.

I’ve also seen guys get some great size then stop lifting for months. Then they come back and you see the obvious softer smaller version they are at the moment. Then bam a few months later they are back to the size they were.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## squatster (Sep 30, 2018)

MUSCLE MEMORY- wow
That's a tough one. 
Been juicing for a little over 35 years now- think if you go to my photos-- you- will see 35 years of ups and downs-(I need to put them in order of time)
I believe to a point in muscle memory - WELL- the cells you still have fill up quick- THE CELLS WE STILL HAVE LEFT???
Other things- like my shoulders are so screwed up - my blood isn't flowing to my arms enough to get the 21"back again- is this why- hell knows? (21" arms on a 186 lbs. Guy looked stupid as hell any ways)
MUSCLE MEMORY- hmmm big time yes - but to what point
Did any of this make sense at all to any one?


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## Sully (Oct 1, 2018)

This is the only study I’m familiar with that deals directly with the concept of “muscle memory” on a cellular level: 

http://www.ergo-log.com/testosteron...permanent-effect-on-muscles-animal-study.html

The conclusion of the study is the same as what I have experienced in my time training and using AAS. Before I ever started using AAS, I never experienced anything that resembles “muscle memory”, especially as it pertains to mass. After I started using AAS, I noticed the phenomenon fairly quickly. 

My personal conclusion on “muscle memory”? It absolutely exists, BUT, only if you use AAS. Otherwise, you are where you are.


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## Sully (Oct 1, 2018)

Aton said:


> I do think there is and have always noticed after dieting down hard when I returned to bulking I gained back the size pretty quick and easy.
> Now some will say losing size is just the depletion of stored glycogen and yes this is true to a degree but at some point you have to drop ur carbs to a point to continue to lose bf and this is where your body uses muscle as reserve energy supply to keep up w the demand you are asking of it.



To me, this sounds more like the rebound effect than “muscle memory”. I see these as 2 completely different events, precipitated by completely different events. The rebound effect is very well documented by competitive bodybuilders from many different eras, and I not imagine there is much debate as to whether or not it exists. 

“Muscle memory” is caused by a completely different set of factors and events, and is perhaps not nearly as well understood. The lack of understanding of the underlying mechanisms behind it are what lead to the debate as to whether or not it does in fact even exist in the first place.


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## Racepicks (Oct 2, 2018)

I wonder!  If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training.  I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury.  Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat.  Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".


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## Sully (Oct 3, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I wonder!  If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training.  I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury.  Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat.  Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".



Didn’t someone post a story here not pong ago about some kid in Texas in high school that smashed the state record in bench press? If I remember correctly, he hurt his knee playing ball and did nothing but bench for about a year. But I have no idea how that hurt his progress once he got healthy and started working legs again. 

I’m not aware of any studies on it, though.


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## squatster (Oct 3, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I wonder!  If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training.  I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury.  Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat.  Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".


This is deep


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## Racepicks (Oct 3, 2018)

Sully said:


> Didn’t someone post a story here not pong ago about some kid in Texas in high school that smashed the state record in bench press? If I remember correctly, he hurt his knee playing ball and did nothing but bench for about a year. But I have no idea how that hurt his progress once he got healthy and started working legs again.
> 
> I’m not aware of any studies on it, though.





squatster said:


> This is deep



I'm not sure this would be classified as earthshattering information.  I'll tell you what.  What I'm hoping is that posting these random thoughts makes people want to visit this forum on a daily basis.  Not for my opinions, but to read what you, and others post.  Adding the links to the studies that either support my thoughts, or dismiss them out of hand.  My respect to all who have added their thoughts and opinions to this thread.  I love this site and the friends I have made here, let's make sure it is here for the long run.


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## montego (Oct 3, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I was watching the latest "Ask Dave" episode on RXMuscle.  I find that, aside from Dave pushing his products, the content is pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> THE TRUTH ABOUT MAGNESIUM! #askDave
> ...


I believe muscle memory absolutely is a real thing.

I have a close friend who used to be a perennial top Placer in local shows in the heavyweight class. Guy had an amazing physique.

Few years back he was in a car wreck and ruptured some vertibre which took him out of training for a very long time and even after he was able to go back he didn't. Just lead a regular lifestyle with nothing related to bodybuilding at all. No diet, cardio, training, AAS, nothing. He lost about 60lbs.

Last year he decided to start training again just to get back in decent shape. Nothing crazy drug wise just a trt dose of test.

Within 2 months he had dropped a ton of body fat and was UP 25lbs from his starting weight......2 months.

As you mentioned earlier Race, genetics surely play a role but, he isn't the guy who can eat whatever he wants and be shredded. He looked like a normal guy and regaining that amount of tissue in that short of a time frame on hardly any drugs was simply amazing.


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## Racepicks (Oct 4, 2018)

montego said:


> I believe muscle memory absolutely is a real thing.
> 
> I have a close friend who used to be a perennial top Placer in local shows in the heavyweight class. Guy had an amazing physique.
> 
> ...



Yeah...you're right.  My first thought would be the guy was blessed with those genes that just adds muscle by brushing his teeth.  Just like Tom Platz, when he attributed his quick return of mass to "Muscle Memory".  Of course, age has a lot to do with it.  I posted pictures over on ProMuscle when I was 56 years old.  I wish I had pictures of when I was 31.  I worked out like a fiend when I was older.  But when I was 31 I ate like shit, drank, went to the clubs at night, skipped work outs, and I looked 90% better.  Back then, 1986, we had all those Mexican products.  Redi-ject Sus and shit!  But I, after being involved in testing, don't believe that the AAS we have today is inferior.  I'll argue that with anybody who believes that Pharma stuff is better then generic.


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## Racepicks (Oct 4, 2018)

We all tell people not to make the same mistakes we made when we were just starting.  For me, it was having zero muscle and spending a ton of time doing useless cutting exercises that my friends, who were competing in local shows, were doing.  Spending 2 hours in the gym doing 5 or 6 sets of 12 reps of concentration curls and shit!  No wonder I made no progress until I began using mass building exercises like Bench Press, Squats, Deadlifts, and weighted Pull-ups.  Keeping the sets low and the intensity high.  4 days on and the other 3 days to rest.  Eating a ton of healthy, nutritious and protein heavy meals.

Now, I point young guys just starting to Jim Wendler's book "5/3/1".  Keep it simple, build a base first, and get strong AF.


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## montego (Oct 4, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> We all tell people not to make the same mistakes we made when we were just starting.  For me, it was having zero muscle and spending a ton of time doing useless cutting exercises that my friends, who were competing in local shows, were doing.  Spending 2 hours in the gym doing 5 or 6 sets of 12 reps of concentration curls and shit!  No wonder I made no progress until I began using mass building exercises like Bench Press, Squats, Deadlifts, and weighted Pull-ups.  Keeping the sets low and the intensity high.  4 days on and the other 3 days to rest.  Eating a ton of healthy, nutritious and protein heavy meals.
> 
> Now, I point young guys just starting to Jim Wendler's book "5/3/1".  Keep it simple, build a base first, and get strong AF.


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_tid=43538&share_fid=50930&share_type=t


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## Thaistick (Oct 4, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I wonder!  If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training.  I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury.  Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat.  Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".



Well dammit I typed a frakkin essay and my browser crashed. I'll retype and edit it back in here later. 
Great thread.


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## Racepicks (Oct 4, 2018)

montego said:


> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_tid=43538&share_fid=50930&share_type=t



Sounds a lot like the man himself!!!


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## Racepicks (Oct 4, 2018)

Thaistick said:


> Well dammit I typed a frakkin essay and my browser crashed. I'll retype and edit it back in here later.
> Great thread.



Nothing sucks more than that. My Brother!:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## Racepicks (Oct 4, 2018)

montego said:


> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_tid=43538&share_fid=50930&share_type=t



This reminds me of a story...

Back home in Rhode Island, I began working out at a Gym on Branch Ave. in Providence RI. called Rhode Island Bodybuilding Club.  Make no mistake, this was no YouFit!  Place was a dump, but I loved it!  I wish there were still gyms like that......but I digress!

The owner of the gym was a local competitive bodybuilder.  After a while we became best friends, we still are.  It wasn't practical for us to be training partners, we would spend too much time stripping his plates to get to my weights.

Here's my point:  One day I missed a workout day.  The next day he asked me what happened.  I told him I wasn't feeling good.  His reply stays with me til this day!

"You get more gain from working out than you do sitting at home.  Even if you can train at 50%, that is still gains!".  Of course, he went on to say, "if you're too sick to get out of bed, that means missing that workout is unavoidable".  But....how many times do you just not feel too good, nothing serious, just not much energy.  


GO TO THE GYM AND SQUAT.  After you complete your workout, you will be surprised how good you feel.

Good Post Montego:headbang:


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## Racepicks (Oct 14, 2018)

I was just thinking, while I was posting over on the "My Thoughts on HGH" thread. http://www.anasci.org/vB/peptides-human-growth-factors/41447-my-thoughts-hgh-11.html#post330914

Most people are using a ton of different anabolics, HGH, Peptides, Insulin, etc.  These people will say, I added 200mg. of Trenbolone and the results were amazing!.....but how do they know?  Was it because two weeks after starting the Tren, they looked in the mirror and were bigger?  Leaner?  Vascular?  But wait, was it the 10 iu's of HGH?, was it the 600mg. of Equipoise?  Was it the 8iu's of Insulin?  My point is this, how do you know?  What was the compound that was responsible?


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## Big Dave Smith (Oct 16, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> I was just thinking, while I was posting over on the "My Thoughts on HGH" thread. http://www.anasci.org/vB/peptides-human-growth-factors/41447-my-thoughts-hgh-11.html#post330914
> 
> Most people are using a ton of different anabolics, HGH, Peptides, Insulin, etc.  These people will say, I added 200mg. of Trenbolone and the results were amazing!.....but how do they know?  Was it because two weeks after starting the Tren, they looked in the mirror and were bigger?  Leaner?  Vascular?  But wait, was it the 10 iu's of HGH?, was it the 600mg. of Equipoise?  Was it the 8iu's of Insulin?  My point is this, how do you know?  What was the compound that was responsible?




These things are difficult to determine, especially if you're beginning everything at once.  You have to have some sort of previous history and understanding of what you're doing, long with a baseline pattern of what you've BEEN doing.  

I tend to start cycles on the more basic end, adding things as I go, then abruptly ending with TRT.  

Month 1- Test/Primo
Month 2- Test/Primo/Mast Prop/Tren Ace
Month 3- Test/Primo/Mast Prop/Tren Ace/Anavar
Month 4- Test/Primo/Mast Prop/Tren Ace/Anavar
Month 5- TRT

I would begin by seeing how the test/primo feels.  Any water retention?  Is my primo real'ish (LOL!).  Month 2 would be the accessment of how much the tren is impacting in terms of side effects.  I look for increased hardness and strength.  If the dose is too high or too low, I adjust based on ability to sleep, mood, etc.  Once that baseline has been developed, I finish with anavar.

As time goes on, I tend to increase GH as well.  If it's pharma, it'll start at around 3.5iu ED, increasing to 5-6'ish.  If it's generic, I'll start at 4-5iu, and wind up around 8-10iu.  This dose will be dictated by hand numbness, lethargy, etc.

Certain gear types have certain sides.
EQ- Anxiety, increased vascularity, and my skin gets a bit red (from higher RBC)
Tren- Issues sleeping, grumpiness, acne
Masteron- Very oil skin, water loss/dryness
Winstrol- Joints
Deca- fluid retention

The younger you are, the more difficult it is to tell.  The older you are, the easier it is to identify.  At the end of the day, you're mostly going on a gut feeling, but you can guess the problem more times than not.


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## Big Dave Smith (Oct 16, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread.  Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano.  I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions.  I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.
> 
> Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.
> 
> ...





The sweet spot will relative to how much the dosage impacts your blood work.  
How quickly and how high does your RBC go up?
How badly does it drop your HDL?
How much does it increase your blood pressure?
How quickly does it increase your estrogen (which would then require the need for anti-aromatase inhibitors which would drop HDL)?


I personally don't like going above 525mg.  It's a nice round number, doing 1/2cc of test 300 EOD.  When I hit the 700mg range, I start to bloat a bit.  At the 1000mg range, regardless of using Rx AI's, I get moon face.

AI's do not prevent all water retention, even if estrogen is low.  The water retention and increase RBC, for me, leads to high blood pressure.  I also get a puffy face.  Around the 500mg mark, I can maintain a more normal appearance facially, yet still get the gains needed.  Am I losing out by not slamming a gram?  Maybe, but I don't want to feel and look like shit in exchange for the added gains.  

If your priority is mass, regardless of the sides, then 1000mg is great.  If your priority is aesthetics, use as little as possible while still gaining.  Take a few years (or more) to build up to higher doses.  Old guys at my gym could walk around at 260lbs on 2 omnadrens a week.  Today's generation can't break 100lbs on 3cc of test cyp.


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## AGGRO (Oct 17, 2018)

Big Dave Smith said:


> Certain gear types have certain sides.
> EQ- Anxiety, increased vascularity, and my skin gets a bit red (from higher RBC)
> Tren- Issues sleeping, grumpiness, acne
> Masteron- Very oil skin, water loss/dryness
> ...



I could have written the same list. I would add prostate issues with masteron.

The main thing that causes acne for me is test. It's mainly when I start a blast or come down to trt.


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## Racepicks (Oct 18, 2018)

I have been a member of ProMuscle for over 8 years.  One of the guys that I have learned from is Big Dave Smith!  Glad to see you posting over here, my Man!


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## weltweite (Oct 20, 2018)

Big Dave Smith said:


> Certain gear types have certain sides.
> EQ- Anxiety, increased vascularity, and my skin gets a bit red (from higher RBC)
> Tren- Issues sleeping, grumpiness, acne
> Masteron- Very oil skin, water loss/dryness
> ...



I know EQ really messes with GABA in the brain, so probably where that anxiety comes from.

Been hearing a lot about Deca only being dry, no water retention until it is combined with Test or something else.


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## Big Dave Smith (Oct 20, 2018)

weltweite said:


> I know EQ really messes with GABA in the brain, so probably where that anxiety comes from.
> 
> 
> 
> Been hearing a lot about Deca only being dry, no water retention until it is combined with Test or something else.





I’d be curious to see how Kava Kava (dosing 2-3x/day) would help with EQ.   

“The pharmacological properties of kava are postulated to include blockade of voltage-gated sodium ion channels, enhanced ligand binding to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptors, diminished excitatory neurotransmitter release due to calcium ion channel blockade, reduced neuronal reuptake of noradrenaline (norepinephrine), reversible inhibition of monoamine oxidase B and suppression of the synthesis of the eicosanoid thromboxane A(2), which antagonises GABA(A) receptor function. Clinical studies have shown that kava and kavalactones are effective in the treatment of anxiety at subclinical and clinical levels, anxiety associated with menopause and anxiety due to various medical conditions.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12383029/


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## Racepicks (Oct 24, 2018)

Big Dave and Jano

What Peptides do you think would be effective in place of AAS.  If your answer is what I think, what would be synergetic with AAS to give you the maximum benefit. 

Anyone else who has an opinion would be welcome!


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## Big Dave Smith (Oct 25, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> Big Dave and Jano
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Considering they don’t operate in the same way, they wouldn’t act as a replacement, but more in terms of synergy.  

I shake my head at those who say peptides don’t work. (Specifically GH peptides)

The combination of no DAC + GHRP2 was outrageous when I used it in 2011-2012.   The same can be said for DAC + MK.  

The only issues I had with either were extreme water retention, grogginess, and hunger.   I’d never be able to prep on them, but if you can’t grow with them... your peptides are either fake, or you aren’t trying.  

Best used in place of GH, obviously.  I wouldn’t run GH with it.  My hands were so numb on some days, I couldn’t grip the steering wheel of my car.  Body weight reached all time highs when I aggressively used them.  

I don’t use them anymore, mostly because my goals are different, and I just hate-hate-hate the way I look with the water retention.  If you’re looking to add mass during an off-season to be more competitive, it’d be foolish not to use it.  

A badass stack would be...
Test
Arbitrary Anabolic 
Peptides 
Insulin 
Mass amounts of food

If you can’t get enormous using that for an off-season, just quit.


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## Racepicks (Oct 27, 2018)

My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids....It is amazing the lack of knowledge most people possess on this subject.  I don't mean those of us who use AAS, I mean the average person who rely on (fake) News Media.

I just watched an NBC Nightly News story about Cesar Sayoc, who was arrested for mailing pipe bombs to various liberals through out the country.

One neighbor commented, "I heard he was using Steroids".  WHAT?????

Bro!!!  People just have no idea!  Does Steroid use make people want to send pipe bombs to other people?  I am not even convinced that "Roid Rage" exists.  In fact, I will unequivocally call out "Roid Rage" as BULLSHIT!  Stop confusing schizophrenia with steroid use!  Try to convince me that I'm wrong!


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## montego (Oct 28, 2018)

Racepicks said:


> My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids....It is amazing the lack of knowledge most people possess on this subject.  I don't mean those of us who use AAS, I mean the average person who rely on (fake) News Media.
> 
> I just watched an NBC Nightly News story about Cesar Sayoc, who was arrested for mailing pipe bombs to various liberals through out the country.
> 
> ...


I agree but, the general public is ignorant with almost any topic that isn't taboo and many that aren't. Just like nutrition..... Fat makes you fat. My wife thinks fat free is healthy despite those fats being substituted for large amounts of sugar.

To the Roid Rage topic, I liken it to dogs.

There's no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.

There's no such thing as Roid Rage just assholes.

To say that it doesn't exists though would be a lie. Certain hormones can definitely put you in a much more aggressive and confrontational mind set. Tren and halo come to mind. Generally though, it boils down to the individual and their "natural" state of mind [emoji23]


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## The Grim Repper (Oct 28, 2018)

weltweite said:


> I know EQ really messes with GABA in the brain, so probably where that anxiety comes from.
> 
> Been hearing a lot about Deca only being dry, no water retention until it is combined with Test or something else.



I've been a big proponent of GABA administration for years to improve sleep and recovery as well as its mood effects.

As far as the original dosage discussion, long before I touched an anabolic, I was asked/accused, etc. of using them which was largely a byproduct of my genetics and training effect combined with diet and consistency. I believe one's propensity for results is genetic and somewhat just as important is their ability to deal with the side effects or tolerance to certain compounds and dosage amounts.
My philosophy was do 'milk' every bit of progress out of the least amount you can use. Once you 'raise the bar' on your hormonal environment, you can do the same with your training, sleep, diet and all of the other VERY important pieces of the muscle building puzzle to further enhance your results.


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## Racepicks (Oct 28, 2018)

montego said:


> There's no such thing as Roid Rage just assholes.
> 
> To say that it doesn't exists though would be a lie.



I think we agree on this subject.  If you're an asshole, some of these androgens could make you a bigger asshole.  What I'm still not convinced of is this, does AAS use effect a person to a point where they will become a Schizophrenic when they were not to begin with?  The big assholes I remember were pretty much assholes even before they began using AAS.  I'm not sure is they became worse after, or was it the added mass that gave them much more confidence to become a bully?  I'm just not sure if this is just another thing that has just perpetuated itself over the many years.


If a person dies of cancer and he used steroids, the steroids were responsible.


If a person goes on a killing rampage and he used steroids, the steroids were responsible.


I'm just not convinced.


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## squatster (Oct 29, 2018)

The Grim Repper said:


> I've been a big proponent of GABA administration for years to improve sleep and recovery as well as its mood effects.
> 
> As far as the original dosage discussion, long before I touched an anabolic, I was asked/accused, etc. of using them which was largely a byproduct of my genetics and training effect combined with diet and consistency. I believe one's propensity for results is genetic and somewhat just as important is their ability to deal with the side effects or tolerance to certain compounds and dosage amounts.
> My philosophy was do 'milk' every bit of progress out of the least amount you can use. Once you 'raise the bar' on your hormonal environment, you can do the same with your training, sleep, diet and all of the other VERY important pieces of the muscle building puzzle to further enhance your results.



Miss you're stuff brotha
Hope we see a lot more from you.


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## Racepicks (Oct 30, 2018)

The Grim Repper said:


> As far as the original dosage discussion, long before I touched an anabolic, I was asked/accused, etc. of using them which was largely a byproduct of my genetics and training effect combined with diet and consistency. I believe one's propensity for results is genetic and somewhat just as important is their ability to deal with the side effects or tolerance to certain compounds and dosage amounts.
> My philosophy was do 'milk' every bit of progress out of the least amount you can use. Once you 'raise the bar' on your hormonal environment, you can do the same with your training, sleep, diet and all of the other VERY important pieces of the muscle building puzzle to further enhance your results.



I wish I could express what I have witnessed in the 30+ years of training.  Don't get me wrong, I have been guilty of the same things.  Going to the gym with no plan, no goal.  You've all seen it!  Throwing the same weight on the bar, doing the same reps.  Doing a set, walking around, talking to the guys!  NO INTENSITY WHATSOEVER!  So what is the solution?  Up The Doses, what else can you do?

When you do not see easy gains while training natural, are you training intensely?  Even natural weightlifters will see great progress without AAS.  Even further, if you possess the genetics, a natural weightlifter will make an enhanced lifter look sick!  Up to a point!  If you have decent genetics, and utilize steroids, it will only take you a few weeks to catch up.  If you do not have the genetics, your only chance is to workout like a madman.  And enhance!


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## The Grim Repper (Oct 31, 2018)

squatster said:


> Miss you're stuff brotha
> Hope we see a lot more from you.



Missed you guys too. You sure will. I have some great stuff planned to share.
Thanks for your kind words man!


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## Big Dave Smith (Oct 31, 2018)

Here are a few questions to add to this conversation...

Which individual compounds are given too much credit in terms of their value?

Which individual compounds are misused the most?  

Which individual compounds are people using too much of in terms of dosage?  Duration?  

Which individual compounds are people using not enough of?


You can pick any gear, gh, peptide, or ancillary.


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## ketsugo (Nov 1, 2018)

Sully said:


> I’ll preface my post with the same disclaimer as yours. This is all just my opinion and I don’t claim to infallible in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Shit so I’m reading this post and saying to myself ,” brilliant “ this guy knows his shit !! Of course it’s you sully lol! Well put. I don’t think you are right ! I know you are!!


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## Racepicks (Nov 2, 2018)

Big Dave Smith said:


> Here are a few questions to add to this conversation...
> 
> Which individual compounds are given too much credit in terms of their value?
> 
> ...



Look....I'm going to have most people disagree. but, the most overrated????   HGH.  If you have followed me for the last few years, you know I have made my reputation with testing HGH.  I thought it was the "Holy Grail" for Bodybuilders.  Today, not so much.

Don't get me wrong.  If you are a competitive Bodybuilder or Powerlifter, HGH is indispensable.  The recovery powers and the synergy with AAS is undeniable. I have reached the conclusion that anyone, other than who I stated above, who are spending thousands of dollars on Pharmaceutical HGH are wasting their money.  I have tested both.  I am not a competitive Bodybuilder or Powerlifter, I'm just a gym rat like most of you.  I believe you will receive the same benefits from Generic HGH.  That being said, I don't think HGH will provide much difference,  If I am correct, why spend a ton of money on Pharma.


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## Big Dave Smith (Nov 5, 2018)

If GH wasn’t as costly, I’d say it’s not overrated at all.   As an endo-meso, GH makes it easier to stay lean on higher calories, and fuller on low calories.  

Pharm grade definitely has a different feel.  I’ve tried humatrope, serostim, saizen (2 kinds), nords, genos, and a few others.  Old school riptropins could be rated as high, but the result really does feel different than generics.   I hold more sub-Q water with generics, more IM with pharma.  


I’m partial to it because the sides are more tolerable, and I’m just cranky about not being able to use the harder stuff like I did when I was younger.


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## Sully (Nov 5, 2018)

ketsugo said:


> Shit so I’m reading this post and saying to myself ,” brilliant “ this guy knows his shit !! Of course it’s you sully lol! Well put. I don’t think you are right ! I know you are!!



Man, the longer I’m involved in this stuff, the less and less I feel like I know. 5 years ago there were plenty of things I would have said were concrete, no question about it absolutes. Now, I’ve changed my mind about a lot of those things. Funny how what u think you know changes as you grow older and gain a different perspective.


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## ketsugo (Nov 5, 2018)

Sully said:


> Man, the longer I’m involved in this stuff, the less and less I feel like I know. 5 years ago there were plenty of things I would have said were concrete, no question about it absolutes. Now, I’ve changed my mind about a lot of those things. Funny how what u think you know changes as you grow older and gain a different perspective.





You know your craft no doubt


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## ketsugo (Nov 6, 2018)

Sully said:


> Man, the longer I’m involved in this stuff, the less and less I feel like I know. 5 years ago there were plenty of things I would have said were concrete, no question about it absolutes. Now, I’ve changed my mind about a lot of those things. Funny how what u think you know changes as you grow older and gain a different perspective.





I believe that is the definition of “ wisdom”


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## ldbruffey (Nov 22, 2018)

Never used pharma but will be using it come this offseason. I’ll do a combo of gonovas and nordi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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