# SubQ vs IM discussion



## Rory (Nov 2, 2012)

Just curious to thoughts from people regarding injection sites. Most all my injections are IM in shoulders with slin pins. 

I've done subq once an hated it. Left an uncomfortable bruised lump. Done calves an couldn't walk right for days. Quads never felt right. 

Going to be experimenting with biceps and tris again tho.


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## Smalltowniron (Nov 2, 2012)

A lot guys go sub q. Not me though


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## PRIDE (Nov 2, 2012)

All of my shots are done in the quads now-a-days, IM with either a 25g1" or slin pin. Haven't used any other spot probably since using Syntherol in bis and tris.


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## vpiedu (Nov 2, 2012)

i never go sub-q but i do spot inject with 30g 1/2" slin pin and i pin bis tris traps pecs lats delts abs quads and calves. if im in a hurry i pull out the ole 3cc barrel and pin the ventral glute and run

VP


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## powders101 (Nov 2, 2012)

Always IM and mostly in shoulders, bis and quads. HGH is SQ in the stomach.


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## odin (Nov 2, 2012)

Depends on the mood on that day but usually im in the bis or tris.


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## IRONFIST (Nov 2, 2012)

IM everywhere, I try to mix it up.


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## Rory (Nov 2, 2012)

vpiedu said:


> i never go sub-q but i do spot inject with 30g 1/2" slin pin and i pin bis tris traps pecs lats delts abs quads and calves. if im in a hurry* i pull out the ole 3cc barrel and pin the ventral glute and run*
> 
> VP



Im good there as long its not tren  Then I feel like Im dying for 20 mins. Funny one day I was at a friends apt I was visiting with out of town for a couple days and his new girlfriend showed up. I was going to leave an hit the gym an was like fuck it and went to the bathroom to pin and started coughing so bad I could barely breath. He opened the door and they were both standing there watching me with a needle in my ass and face beet red from the tren cough........ never again risked it lol. Always a safe bet in the shoulders


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## Magnus82 (Nov 3, 2012)

For some reason quads kill me.  I like bis, shoulders, and my new favorite, ventrogluteal.  All with slin pin, all im.


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## vpiedu (Nov 3, 2012)

Rory said:


> Im good there as long its not tren  Then I feel like Im dying for 20 mins. Funny one day I was at a friends apt I was visiting with out of town for a couple days and his new girlfriend showed up. I was going to leave an hit the gym an was like fuck it and went to the bathroom to pin and started coughing so bad I could barely breath. He opened the door and they were both standing there watching me with a needle in my ass and face beet red from the tren cough........ never again risked it lol. Always a safe bet in the shoulders



man, that was a good one!!! i am still laughing my ass off...  damn that was some funny shit Rory. thanks for that one brother!

VP


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## LuKiFeR (Nov 3, 2012)

Always done IM. started with quads...then ass.  Now i use everywhere.
But i just started some peps n got some slin pins so im gona try test cyp subq for first time.
There were alot of guys on alinboard swearing by subQ.


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## LuKiFeR (Nov 3, 2012)

Dble pst. Sorry


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## Collinb (Nov 3, 2012)

Depends on my pins honestly.  Doesnt matter to me either way, nothing shows there is a slower absorption or anything between the two from anything that I have seen.  If I have slin pins it usually is either Sub-Q or shallow IM at most, or I use a 1-1.5 inch for deep IM.


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## Rory (Nov 4, 2012)

Interesting observation today. Today I pinned left bicep .5cc an figured my left quad .5cc an right quad 1cc. Right knotted up an hurt to move while left quad an bicep was fine with no problems. Didn't think the extra .5cc in right quad would knot up and make that much of a difference given the muscle size. First time pinning quads that injecting didn't hurt at all tho.


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## vintagemuscle (Nov 4, 2012)

SubQ is the standard for me however when do im I use a 30g x 1 in the quads or delts.


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## thebrick (Nov 4, 2012)

I rotate between delts and tri's IM 25g 1". Lately I've been pinning my bi's with a 1 cc slin pin with prop mixed with tren and like it alot. My arms are def bigger because of it. Surprised the hell out of me, now I'm hooked.


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## Rfagazzi (Nov 4, 2012)

Rory said:


> Im good there as long its not tren  Then I feel like Im dying for 20 mins. Funny one day I was at a friends apt I was visiting with out of town for a couple days and his new girlfriend showed up. I was going to leave an hit the gym an was like fuck it and went to the bathroom to pin and started coughing so bad I could barely breath. He opened the door and they were both standing there watching me with a needle in my ass and face beet red from the tren cough........ never again risked it lol. Always a safe bet in the shoulders



I'll give the shoulders a try today. I am so prone to tren cough, I actually plan ahead for it. Sucks! Is it that there are bigger gaps between veins & vessels, therefore the chances are less likely for nicking something? I'm quite the experienced user, but this is news to me. Very interesting.........


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## Rfagazzi (Nov 4, 2012)

Well, I pinned 1ml of tren-a in my front left delt. I love it! Not even so much as tickle in my throat, tightness in my chest, nothing! Thanks for the great tip Rory.


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## Rory (Nov 4, 2012)

Rfagazzi said:


> Well, I pinned 1ml of tren-a in my front left delt. I love it! Not even so much as tickle in my throat, tightness in my chest, nothing! Thanks for the great tip Rory.



Delts are my favorite for tren to avoid the cough! Once in a great while I'll get it but very rarely.


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## Collinb (Nov 5, 2012)

How do you guys feel about glute SubQ pins?  Everywhere I read people are saying never use slin pins for glutes make sure its 1.5" or 1" if really lean...Would .5" slin pin work fine for glutes?


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## electrickettle6 (Dec 6, 2012)

Sub q is a viable form of administration. It is used in HRT clinics by a medical professional. BUT the amount of oils we put into our body makes it very difficult for us to sub q inject our hormones. It leaves a welt and usually gives me a histamine release around the injection site. 
Also the medical administration is usually .5 ml Twice a week and done on the corner of the bottom abdominals.
If you want to do it alternate the 4 corners of your abs and start with .5mls every application.
Might as well pin man.


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 11, 2012)

So you guys that say subq are you talking for AAS or just peptide/hgh products . I've never heard of subq AAS oils always im? If you are using a one inch slin pin you are still im and not going at an angle leaving a bump of oil under the skin layer are you? Only AAS for like a site injection with actual studies is inj winny right. Thanks for clarifying ..


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## striffe (Dec 11, 2012)

Magnus82 said:


> For some reason quads kill me.  I like bis, shoulders, and my new favorite, ventrogluteal.  All with slin pin, all im.



Me too, quads are a bad spot for me, for some reason. I use slin pins and 1" 25g. I mainly do glutes, delts, and bis. Slin pin for bis, i use both for delts, and 1" 25g for glutes.


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## NOSUPERMODEL (Dec 11, 2012)

Started doing my TRT dosage Sub Q.  Its a nice break from the twice weekly IM.  If I could only load the slin pins faster.  Takes me about 20 minutes to get everything done.


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 11, 2012)

Subq is just under the skin. So ure depositing a pocket of oil between skin and muscle? That's a first for me. I know u can use slin pins for site im injections bit never AAS subq . Anyone post anywhere I can see that's ok to subq AAS ?


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## Brandon91 (Dec 12, 2012)

My 3 favourite sites are Delts, chest and Biceps with a 5/8 orange

Quads I use sparingly since hitting a nerve isn't a nice feeling and I avoid Glutes due to the awkwardness of jabbing it on your own

Will try sub-q eventually but for now I don't feel as though I need to open that site


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## Brandon91 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Subq is just under the skin. So ure depositing a pocket of oil between skin and muscle? That's a first for me. I know u can use slin pins for site im injections bit never AAS subq . Anyone post anywhere I can see that's ok to subq AAS ?



Some TRT docs are using sub-q, that's what there saying over on some of the UK forums


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 12, 2012)

Seems weird or odd to me. Anything I ever got from
My hrt dr says IM only.. Post a uk read if u can.


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## Brandon91 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Seems weird or odd to me. Anything I ever got from
> My hrt dr says IM only.. Post a uk read if u can.




*Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D. Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report. Saudi Med J 2006;27(12):1843-6. http://ipac.kacst.edu.sa/eDoc/2006/161440_1.pdf *


OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.


METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe.



RESULTS: A total of *22 *patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.



CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.



NB: the low doses it refers to was an average of *55, with a max of 100mg. *
NB 2: Obviously this is a very low dose, but it makes you wonder how effective it would be for doses up to 500mg (or 2x 250mg since subQ spots are plentiful). Could be an easy alternative for those who aren't keen on intramuscular injections


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## Brandon91 (Dec 12, 2012)

Subcutaneous Administration of Testosterone
These two articles shows that subc injections of AAS are quite viable alternative for IM injections.

Quote:
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS

M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada

Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however, its physiological effects are unclear.

We therefore investigated the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy.

Patients and methods: Between May and September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism. Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks. Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration is not officially approved by Health Canada. T levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels were measured however; the week 12 data are still being collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l (p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1 (27.46+12.91 nmol/l).

Patients tolerated this therapy with no adverse effects.

Conclusions: A once-week SC injection of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further evaluation.


Quote:
Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.

Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: [email protected].

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.

METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study.

Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.

CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.


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## omegachewy (Dec 12, 2012)

subq i only use for peps. with oils there's too much risk of abscess.
Oh and btw, theres no such thing as "spot treating" with esterfied aas. thats kinda the point of an ester. esterase will slowly do its job in the blood and give test as it goes. so, in summary
Always IM
Subq for most peps-most
No such thing as spot treatment with esterfied aas.


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 12, 2012)

Ok Brandon, Well i learn something new everyday.. So it's sayin basically test nothing like deca , tren , and all the good stuff. And low mg.Any American studies?  Thanks for posting brutha..

And omega I'm with you on all this....


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## vpiedu (Dec 12, 2012)

omegachewy said:


> Oh and btw, theres no such thing as "spot treating"



there is no direct effect of the gear locally but, there is the benefit of pinning muscles directly to improve size and shape and yes spot injecting does work from the amount of oil you put into the muscle sorta like syntherol but not as dramatic but it does work and it is permanent. 

VP


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## Brandon91 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Ok Brandon, Well i learn something new everyday.. So it's sayin basically test nothing like deca , tren , and all the good stuff. And low mg.Any American studies?  Thanks for posting brutha..
> 
> And omega I'm with you on all this....



Those are the only studies I could find mate, some guys say they use subq for ED small doses of tren ace to keep the blood levels stable, some guys get lumps from subq so personally I wouldn't do it unless it was a water based injection


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## vpiedu (Dec 12, 2012)

vpiedu said:


> there is no direct effect of the gear locally but, there is the benefit of pinning muscles directly to improve size and shape and yes spot injecting does work from the amount of oil you put into the muscle sorta like syntherol but not as dramatic but it does work and it is permanent.
> 
> VP



just for clarification im referring to IM injection, and i am using 30g 1/2" slin pin and i can tell a difference with spot injections.

VP


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## omegachewy (Dec 13, 2012)

woah, no. you are comparing apples and kumquats here. syntherol is used for spot treatment and it does a damn good job for fascia stretching, but the principle behind that is to INCREASE in volume to enhance the stretch, not the same thing again and again as with aas. syntherol is also thicker, taking longer to disipate (not sure if i spelled that correctly)


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 13, 2012)

Winnies the the only aas I've heard that does have benefits for site im pins.. 
Nothin else IMO . To each his own and I learned something new ..


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## Brandon91 (Dec 13, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Winnies the the only aas I've heard that does have benefits for site im pins..
> Nothin else IMO . To each his own and I learned something new ..



I've been seeing some posts around about esterless water based steroids have site growth potential such as test suspension, methyl tren, injectable dbol/anadrol 

People are saying because it's water based and has no Esther it acts locally first


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 13, 2012)

Whoa brandon , never seen a waterbased dbol or anadrol unless an oral type suspension you put in your mouth. Test no ester (Tne) is in oil, test suspension like you say is in an aquious solution both of which I know people do for site injection at low mg doses. Too high a mg and the pip(post injection pain) is terrible especially in the smaller muscle groups, but there is always the one person who loves pain..


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## Brandon91 (Dec 13, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Whoa brandon , never seen a waterbased dbol or anadrol unless an oral type suspension you put in your mouth. Test no ester (Tne) is in oil, test suspension like you say is in an aquious solution both of which I know people do for site injection at low mg doses. Too high a mg and the pip(post injection pain) is terrible especially in the smaller muscle groups, but there is always the one person who loves pain..



BSI labs are doing a few blends of water based, with mtren, susp and dbol in them, all injectable


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## vpiedu (Dec 13, 2012)

omegachewy said:


> woah, no. you are comparing apples and kumquats here. syntherol is used for spot treatment and it does a damn good job for fascia stretching, but the principle behind that is to INCREASE in volume to enhance the stretch, not the same thing again and again as with aas. syntherol is also thicker, taking longer to disipate (not sure if i spelled that correctly)



i know exactly how both work there little dude. read my post. i have been doing this for 20+ years i know what works. nuff said.

VP


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok I saw them.. Did you see the methyl tren is 2500mcg per ml? That's 2.5mg a cc..lol..dbols 50mg/ml. Bet ya that hurts like the old reforit -b from Mexico
that was 25mg/ml mixed in b-12 and other water soluable vitamins .. Ended up
drinking my great Mexican buys ..lol But bsi has good ratings on their other stuff..


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## Brandon91 (Dec 13, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Ok I saw them.. Did you see the methyl tren is 2500mcg per ml? That's 2.5mg a cc..lol..dbols 50mg/ml. Bet ya that hurts like the old reforit -b from Mexico
> that was 25mg/ml mixed in b-12 and other water soluable vitamins .. Ended up
> drinking my great Mexican buys ..lol But bsi has good ratings on their other stuff..



they're rated on everything at the moment, gonna buy some of their enanthate this week


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## kaju (Dec 14, 2012)

Just a note. I done a subQ injection of sustonon in that small roll of fat I have on my stomach. Damn Talk about sore. Id rather have a sore muscle from an IM pinning. I done it twice in one week. I had a sore spot there for about two  weeks after my last pin. I like the subQ I just learned not to pin in my fat at that spot.


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## b12 (Dec 14, 2012)

I like subQ a lot. Helps cut down on IM injection volume.


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 15, 2012)

kaju said:


> Just a note. I done a subQ injection of sustonon in that small roll of fat I have on my stomach. Damn Talk about sore. Id rather have a sore muscle from an IM pinning. I done it twice in one week. I had a sore spot there for about two  weeks after my last pin. I like the subQ I just learned not to pin in my fat at that spot.



Kaju we didnt say do 3cc's brutha. Lol.. Ok how much DID u do on the muffintop? Kdn bro..


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## kaju (Dec 21, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Kaju we didnt say do 3cc's brutha. Lol.. Ok how much DID u do on the muffintop? Kdn bro..



1ml per spot


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## Incognito1 (Dec 26, 2012)

I did subq oils a few times in the past. It always left me with a huge lump for weeks post injection. Ill never do it again. My favourite spot is quads with a slin needle.


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## b12 (Dec 27, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Ok I saw them.. Did you see the methyl tren is 2500mcg per ml? That's 2.5mg a cc..lol..dbols 50mg/ml. Bet ya that hurts like the old reforit -b from Mexico
> that was 25mg/ml mixed in b-12 and other water soluable vitamins .. Ended up
> drinking my great Mexican buys ..lol But bsi has good ratings on their other stuff..



Damn, I just caught this! Thread! loved that orange stuff, the b12 plus dbol right before a workout was awesome. Is Reforvit still around!? That was a long while ago since I last saw it!


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## Ironbuilt (Dec 27, 2012)

b12 said:


> Damn, I just caught this! Thread! loved that orange stuff, the b12 plus dbol right before a workout was awesome. Is Reforvit still around!? That was a long while ago since I last saw it!



Gear grinder made loeffler stop production my brutha.. Grab liquid d-Bol and skip the nasty b vitamins .. Lol..I had 10 bottles long ago that I sipPed on like shots a tequila.. I still taste them..


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## kaju (Dec 27, 2012)

Ironbuilt said:


> Gear grinder made loeffler stop production my brutha.. Grab liquid d-Bol and skip the nasty b vitamins .. Lol..I had 10 bottles long ago that I sipPed on like shots a tequila.. I still taste them..



I think tequila tasted better. LOL


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## Kdawgs (Dec 30, 2012)

I quite like sub-q test injections but how does it go for other AAS? I'd be a little worried to go sub-q with something like tren ace.


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