# suspension



## bigpoppie (Aug 18, 2013)

I got  some test a few months ago and finally decided to use it pre workout on my ace & prop cycle. It all settled to the bottom. I kept it in a hot sink for about 30 minutes and it finally broke loose and I was able to mix it up in the amp. As I drew it in it was settling back down, so I shot some back in and drew quickly. I got a good portion of it in but not all. I tried to get the air out and it was clogged. I pushed so hard the pin blew off.
Is this normal? Do I need to do something else to get it back into solution properly?
Thanx


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## BigBob (Aug 18, 2013)

Hey bro, What size pin are you using? You could use some bacteriosratic water to cut it with. May help dilute it.


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## Populus54 (Aug 18, 2013)

What's it suspended in. Water? oil? glycol?


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 18, 2013)

Who is the amp maker?.  Got a pic?  I love milk bottles  .  Ive had imposters that went back where i got and i was gonna make the person eat everyone till i got refund..id not usem


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## bigpoppie (Aug 18, 2013)

They are BP in water
It was a 23 guage pin.
Would it go back into solution if placed in boiling water for x amount of time?


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 19, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> They are BP in water
> It was a 23 guage pin.
> Would it go back into solution if placed in boiling water for x amount of time?


The two testosterones you mentioned are esters (ace and prop) and are NOT water soluble. You need to compound them into solution with an oil and BA for sterility and possibly some BB. The ester is added for the very reason to make them more hyrdrophobic. If using water, TNE is what you would want.

That's why your raws are precipitating.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 19, 2013)

Testosterone itself is also not very water-soluble. It's going to settle as well. That's why it's called "suspended".


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 19, 2013)

Bp? Whos that? So u have test suspension in water in glass ampules not vials and what is mg / ml amount..


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## bigpoppie (Aug 19, 2013)

Balkan pharma amps 100mg/ml.
The ace and prop I pin seperate from this daily. I want to try the suspension but ran into the problems I described earlier. If I can't keep it from settling how can I mix it with sterile water?


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 19, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> Balkan pharma amps 100mg/ml.
> The ace and prop I pin seperate from this daily. I want to try the suspension but ran into the problems I described earlier. If I can't keep it from settling how can I mix it with sterile water?


It's already in water. I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make your own with one of the esters of testosterone (wouldn't be the first time I've heard that LOL).

You just really have to shake the living hell out of it and if you can't get the testosterone to break apart well enough (the water should turn a milky white) then it's time to break out the 18g canon and hold something between your teeth.

I've had it where it was just a chunk at the bottom of the vial and had to shake that shit for 10 minutes.


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## turbobusa (Aug 19, 2013)

Ok so you are using test h20 susp and trying to pin that with the two oil based tests?Suspension(h20) always falls out and quickly.. I used quite a bit of the old us pharm hg  Schein test susp many moons ago. looked like chaulk dust
under a layer of water.Sometimes I did the oil and water both in one poke. Think more than anything i kinda got away with it. The best way i found is to shake the susp up and quickly draw up with a larger pin say 20 -21. cap pin flip it over and slightly clear the pin. remove pin and install the actual pin you will inj with.
while still capped give it brisk shake with pin upwards . have yourself "ready".
Uncap drive it home slight aspiration then inj fairly quickly and steadily.
Never once clogged that way. Why the over kill on short tests?
If I were doing quality susp I'd not even bother with the ace unless the susp is is pre w/o only and only on training days.I'd stay away from doing oil and water in one barrel. just increases chances of shit going wrong. infec /abcess etc.Just my exp/opinion. Have a great day... T


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## turbobusa (Aug 19, 2013)

Ok i see in another post you meant tren ace . Hey i just woke up so this old brain takes a min to fire up. The key is keeping the susp out of the pin and 
upside down til ready . keep a swirling motion as much as possible . once that
stuff gets in the pin ya gotta keep it moving and flowing so plan on a two pin deal one draw one poke . T


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## bigpoppie (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanx for the help guys I'll give it another shot.


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## ASHOP (Aug 20, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> Thanx for the help guys I'll give it another shot.



Try using a 22g and dont give it too much time to settle.


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## The Grim Repper (Aug 20, 2013)

Damn,  like shooting broken marbles into yer shit.  Good luck!


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## bigpoppie (Aug 20, 2013)

The Grim Repper said:


> Damn,  like shooting broken marbles into yer shit.  Good luck!



Thanks for helping me to be otimistic about it lol.


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## bigpoppie (Aug 20, 2013)

ASHOP said:


> Try using a 22g and dont give it too much time to settle.



Would you recommend the sink of hot water to break it up or a pot of boiping water?
Thanx


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 20, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> would you recommend the sink of hot water to break it up or a pot of boiping water?
> Thanx


What gauge needle are you using? I see 23g. Obviously too small. You need a thicker gauge needle.


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## The Grim Repper (Aug 20, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> Thanks for helping me to be otimistic about it lol.



I really do hope you did get the humor in that brother, nothing more than just that, I know you'll get it sorted.


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## bigpoppie (Aug 20, 2013)

The Grim Repper said:


> I really do hope you did get the humor in that brother, nothing more than just that, I know you'll get it sorted.



I got it but I don't think ill be laughing so much when I skewer my ass


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 21, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> I got it but I don't think ill be laughing so much when I skewer my ass


LOL, and it sounds like that's exactly what you'll have to do to get those stones through the pin... (seriously, it's not that bad).

But you HAVE to update on how it goes.


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## MightyJohn (Aug 21, 2013)

yrs back when I did suspension I would plunge in and out 10-15x to break it up before shooting...I'd also keep the pin moving(twisting it) while I threw a 25g on it...worked like a charm


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## ASHOP (Aug 21, 2013)

MightyJohn said:


> yrs back when I did suspension I would plunge in and out 10-15x to break it up before shooting...I'd also keep the pin moving(twisting it) while I threw a 25g on it...worked like a charm



That's a tip I have never tried. Interesting,,,thanks!


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## vikingquest (Aug 21, 2013)

I'm failing to see the issue.  Are you trying to do less than the one ml or is it just getting clogged? If it's getting clogged,  20g that shit.  You can heat it up in water and see if it will hold. Boil water and throw an amp in the for 30 seconds and draw it up fast. Make sure it's cooled a bit before Injecting (obviously) ((sometimes you have to spell this out)).


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 21, 2013)

vikingquest said:


> I'm failing to see the issue.  Are you trying to do less than the one ml or is it just getting clogged? If it's getting clogged,  20g that shit.  You can heat it up in water and see if it will hold. Boil water and throw an amp in the for 30 seconds and draw it up fast. Make sure it's cooled a bit before Injecting (obviously) ((sometimes you have to spell this out)).


I here you. You just got a use a bigger pipe. Heating is a waste of but hey, whatever.


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## MightyJohn (Aug 21, 2013)

Heating it honestly makes it worse...b/c it causes the test grainuals to soften, just enough to clumb


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 21, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> I here you. You just got a use a bigger pipe. Heating is a waste of but hey, whatever.



Great grammar OTH (what the hell?). This just barely makes sense.



MightyJohn said:


> Heating it honestly makes it worse...b/c it causes the test grainuals to soften, just enough to clumb



I use to love suspension and did a lot of it. I mostly remember and always did 50mg/ml and I had zero clogging problems. I also always used 21, 22, and 23g needles. Wasn't there a 22.5g? What happened to those?

I think it mostly all Agovirin 2ml amps? Always way overpriced.


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## MightyJohn (Aug 23, 2013)

I always tried to find micronized stuff 100mg/ml...pharma vet or mex honestly forget and denkall(real original dk) & managed to get it through a 25g...now sometimes the 1in were tough but 5/8 was a breeze...the shorter the distance, less chance of clogging


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 23, 2013)

Aquavirion amps I just got are 25mg x 1ml . $.1.35 each so I load 3 per pin x 2 pins smooth as butter thru a 25g ...


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## Nattydread (Aug 23, 2013)

That denkal was aquatest. It was smooth.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 23, 2013)

Nattydread said:


> That denkal was aquatest. It was smooth.


There was a time when that stuff was mega painful. I think there was a lot of counterfeit out there. Way back was Univet. Don't know if anyone remembers that. In 20ml vials.


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## Nattydread (Aug 23, 2013)

I remember at one point there was a rumor that some of the counterfeits had armorall in it. The denkal and sydgroup were good.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 23, 2013)

Nattydread said:


> I remember at one point there was a rumor that some of the counterfeits had armorall in it. The denkal and sydgroup were good.


Water-based preps got a really bad rap through all of that but I loved (and still do) the suspensions.

Lot of infections and abscesses made people worry about aqueous solutions. I still use them and have never had a problem. I've thrown quite a few suspicious amps in the trash but ya can't be too careful.


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## Nattydread (Aug 23, 2013)

Now I wanna get some.


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## MightyJohn (Aug 24, 2013)

Yeah I'm tempted too LOL


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## Concreteguy (Aug 24, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Testosterone itself is also not very water-soluble. It's going to settle as well. That's why it's called "suspended".



This is true. But with the addition of a surfactant like polysorbate-80. You can truly turn it into a solusion that will look like milk and push threw a 30 gage pin.

CG


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## bigpoppie (Aug 24, 2013)

I haven't gotten around to trying again yet but the issue was everything settled to the bottom of the amp. Keeping it in hot water for 30 min allowed it to break up and for me to shake it up. As I drew it up it was already settling. I will trry it with a bigger pin just gotta get some. All I have are 23&25.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 24, 2013)

Concreteguy said:


> This is true. But with the addition of a surfactant like polysorbate-80. You can truly turn it into a solusion that will look like milk and push threw a 30 gage pin.
> 
> CG



Great info! Will try... on my, uh... horses.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 24, 2013)

bigpoppie said:


> I will trry it with a bigger pin just gotta get some. All I have are 23&25.


Have you tried a Cuisinart? (LOL)


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## bigpoppie (Aug 24, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Have you tried a Cuisinart? (LOL)



I'm soon just gonna dig a hole through my skin and pour the shit in.


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## FordFan (Aug 25, 2013)

10+ years ago I had my first and last experience with test susp.  Shit clogged so bad all I could use was 18ga. I literally would pull of of vial and stab my ass and inject as fast as I could (1cc). There were times stuff would solidify before finishing. Fwiw, mine was 20ml from Mexico but can't remember the brand.

Short version, find TNE and be done.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 25, 2013)

FordFan said:


> 10+ years ago I had my first and last experience with test susp.  Shit clogged so bad all I could use was 18ga. I literally would pull of of vial and stab my ass and inject as fast as I could (1cc). There were times stuff would solidify before finishing. Fwiw, mine was 20ml from Mexico but can't remember the brand.
> 
> Short version, find TNE and be done.


Suspensions are TNE. But if I understand you, I think what you're just saying is use the OIL-based versions of suspension (where the test is better dissolved).


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## vikingquest (Aug 25, 2013)

I love tne.  Sort of addicted you could say lol


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 26, 2013)

vikingquest said:


> I love tne.  Sort of addicted you could say lol


You and every other man on the planet that is addicted to being a dude.


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## vikingquest (Aug 26, 2013)

Lol very true


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## turbobusa (Aug 26, 2013)

FordFan said:


> 10+ years ago I had my first and last experience with test susp.  Shit clogged so bad all I could use was 18ga. I literally would pull of of vial and stab my ass and inject as fast as I could (1cc). There were times stuff would solidify before finishing. Fwiw, mine was 20ml from Mexico but can't remember the brand.
> 
> Short version, find TNE and be done.



Probably the old illium brand. Aussie labeling sold in mex
Denkall etc.. . T


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## Thor (Aug 28, 2013)

*Hey Bros...*

Try the susp from GP.. very nice and no problems like y'all are talkin about .:headbang:


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## bigpoppie (Aug 28, 2013)

thor said:


> try the susp from gp.. Very nice and no problems like y'all are talkin about .:headbang:



gp????


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## Concreteguy (Aug 28, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Suspensions are TNE. But if I understand you, I think what you're just saying is use the OIL-based versions of suspension (where the test is better dissolved).



This has always left me wondering. When you use water as the carrier it's going to hit you almost like main lining. Why slow it down with oil? No matter how thin the oil, wont it still have to brake down to fully release %100 of the TNE?
 Plus any oil will off set the strength per cc unless you step it up ( at home ) to make up for this. I don't think a sponsor would be doing this.
 I.M.O, I think water is the way to go with this.
CG


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 28, 2013)

Concreteguy said:


> This has always left me wondering. When you use water as the carrier it's going to hit you almost like main lining. Why slow it down with oil? No matter how thin the oil, wont it still have to brake down to fully release %100 of the TNE?
> Plus any oil will off set the strength per cc unless you step it up ( at home ) to make up for this. I don't think a sponsor would be doing this.
> I.M.O, I think water is the way to go with this.
> CG


I haven't looked into the oil-based suspensions. I have no problem whatsoever with the water-based. Maybe someone with more info on this will chime in. I know they're saying the absorption of the oil-based is more rapid from a molecular perspective. I just haven't done the research. The previous suspensions already took my T levels to ridiculously high levels. I'm not sure why I would want to increase those levels even higher. Jeeez.... Testosterone isn't crack!


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## MR. BMJ (Aug 28, 2013)

I pretty much avoid the aqueous suspensions and prefer the TNE in oil these days. A good TNE oil product is very effective if made correctly. It's been awhile since i've used it though.


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## MightyJohn (Sep 1, 2013)

Concreteguy said:


> This has always left me wondering. When you use water as the carrier it's going to hit you almost like main lining. Why slow it down with oil? No matter how thin the oil, wont it still have to brake down to fully release %100 of the TNE?
> Plus any oil will off set the strength per cc unless you step it up ( at home ) to make up for this. I don't think a sponsor would be doing this.
> I.M.O, I think water is the way to go with this.
> CG



I have used both and gotta agree with CG on this one TNE oil and water based are not the same thing...water is quite a bit faster...oil based is similar to prop


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 1, 2013)

MightyJohn said:


> I have used both and gotta agree with CG on this one TNE oil and water based are not the same thing...water is quite a bit faster...oil based is similar to prop


Technically, testosterone is not really suspended in oil, it's dissolved (even when there is no ester attached to the molecule). In water, the stuff just settles to the bottom of the amp or vial until you shake it. What you said makes sense since the difference between testosterone (no ester) and testosterone propionate (a very short ester) would not seem to be that great in terms of release times. I have not yet seen anything that would make me think it would be all that much faster although it definitely would be more rapid - although how much more rapid, I don't know. The fact to consider here is, once the testosterone is released from it's oily depot, ester or not, it becomes bio-available almost immediately. That alone says a lot.

Once hydrolysis occurs, the formerly esterified testosterone is now cleaved from it's parent molecule and is no longer soluble in the oily depot and begins to migrate to where water is - specifically, you.


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## MightyJohn (Sep 1, 2013)

OTH...I'm not debating any of that...although when I'd do water based within like 2hrs I look 10-15lbs bigger...never had that effect when doin TNE oil based


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 1, 2013)

MightyJohn said:


> OTH...I'm not debating any of that...although when I'd do water based within like 2hrs I look 10-15lbs bigger...never had that effect when doin TNE oil based





			
				OuchThatHurts said:
			
		

> What you said makes sense since the difference between testosterone (no ester) and testosterone propionate (a very short ester) would not seem...



That's why I said, what you said makes sense to me. A short ester like prop is going to break down pretty quickly. And I'm like you, aqueous suspension hits me like a truck.


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## LuKiFeR (Sep 2, 2013)

Testosterone Suspension and Testosterone Base

this says 
test base is more of a short acting. test susp givs u a peak a week later.


i just gota jug of test susp from a fellow on the west coast(thanx bud)...
and i did 1ml in delt. slow...steady inject. and it looks like i used synthol. wow...
golf ball on the delt....and painfull.  not to mention....took me an hour to heat up and disperse the chunks


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 2, 2013)

LuKiFeR said:


> Testosterone Suspension and Testosterone Base
> 
> this says
> test base is more of a short acting. test susp givs u a peak a week later.
> ...


Sounds like your fellow gave you junk. I've never had a reaction like that with Agoviron. I know what the "article" says but testosterone base, testosterone suspension, testosterone no ester, it's all the same thing - same solubility, same hydrophobicity. Are you trying to say that dissolving non-esterified testosterone in oil somehow changes it's properties?


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## Ironbuilt (Sep 2, 2013)

Aquaviron is dosed at 25mg/ ml.right in one ml amps
.suspenion made at 100 will have a kick especially in a delt
Do a calve next time..that will smart.
.


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## LuKiFeR (Sep 2, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Sounds like your fellow gave you junk. I've never had a reaction like that with Agoviron. I know what the "article" says but testosterone base, testosterone suspension, testosterone no ester, it's all the same thing - same solubility, same hydrophobicity. Are you trying to say that dissolving non-esterified testosterone in oil somehow changes it's properties?



i wld think test in water wld dissolve quicker. but a blood test proved that tne in oil dissolves completely pretty much instantly where as tne in water dissolves instantly but not 100% of it. the remainder peaks about a week later.


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 2, 2013)

LuKiFeR said:


> i wld think test in water wld dissolve quicker. but a blood test proved that tne in oil dissolves completely pretty much instantly where as tne in water dissolves instantly but not 100% of it. the remainder peaks about a week later.


Only in one vague study done on horses. That's the thing. If you've ever done suspension, especially in a muscle that used often, there's no week-later peak or spike. Not that I've ever noticed. Seriously. Not even trying to be argumentative but does that really add up? Human physiology determines how suspension and all IM injections work. Not studies with horses. Even the clinical pharmacology from the manufacturer that requires a great amount of R&D show a much shorter absorption mechanism of action within just a few hours. If some residual testosterone is left at the injection site, it would be cleared in a timely fashion perhaps over a day or two. Not a week later. Even if there is residual compound in the muscle, why would it just decide to absorb a week later? It's highly questionable to say the least. I would never do a suspension that was 100mg/ml. That's just asking for trouble. If you make a cup of tea, would the sugar suspended in the tea be more likely to settle if you put one teaspoon of sugar or four?


_edit: My last sentence here was to illustrate to issue with adding too much compound to any solution. Surely, sugar does dissolve (not suspend) in water to a great degree before it begins to precipitate._


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 2, 2013)

LuKiFeR said:


> i wld think test in water wld dissolve quicker. but a blood test proved that tne in oil dissolves completely pretty much instantly where as tne in water dissolves instantly but not 100% of it. the remainder peaks about a week later.


Testosterone cannot dissolve in water. It's not easy to dissolve in oil but it IS oil soluble. There is much to compare. Since no hydrolysis has to take place with it dissolved in oil it would be rapid. Would it produce a higher plasma level? Who knows. For now, I cant imagine a more powerful testosterone boost than aqueous suspension and why would I need one? To each his own. But spiking testosterone levels into the stratosphere is not my goal with testosterone.


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## LuKiFeR (Sep 2, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Testosterone cannot dissolve in water. It's not easy to dissolve in oil but it IS oil soluble. There is much to compare. Since no hydrolysis has to take place with it dissolved in oil it would be rapid. Would it produce a higher plasma level? Who knows. For now, I cant imagine a more powerful testosterone boost than aqueous suspension and why would I need one? To each his own. But spiking testosterone levels into the stratosphere is not my goal with testosterone.



my bad. i didnt mean dissolve in the water....ment in the body.....absorbed...in the body. i dnt want peaks either.


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 2, 2013)

LuKiFeR said:


> my bad. i didnt mean dissolve in the water....ment in the body.....absorbed...in the body. i dnt want peaks either.


No worries!


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## butthole69 (Sep 19, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Testosterone cannot dissolve in water. It's not easy to dissolve in oil but it IS oil soluble. There is much to compare. Since no hydrolysis has to take place with it dissolved in oil it would be rapid. Would it produce a higher plasma level? Who knows. For now, I cant imagine a more powerful testosterone boost than aqueous suspension and why would I need one? To each his own. But spiking testosterone levels into the stratosphere is not my goal with testosterone.



Wouldn't hydrolysis only be required for esterified testosterone? When (how?) does the body hydrolyze testosterone suspension?

I'm pretty sure that testosterone suspension takes longer to absorb because (even with micronized testosterone) you are injecting testosterone crystals. Only the outermost layer is available for absorption, while dissolved testosterone has 100% surface area/availability.


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## butthole69 (Sep 19, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> Only in one vague study done on horses. That's the thing. If you've ever done suspension, especially in a muscle that used often, there's no week-later peak or spike. Not that I've ever noticed. Seriously. Not even trying to be argumentative but does that really add up? Human physiology determines how suspension and all IM injections work. Not studies with horses. Even the clinical pharmacology from the manufacturer that requires a great amount of R&D show a much shorter absorption mechanism of action within just a few hours. If some residual testosterone is left at the injection site, it would be cleared in a timely fashion perhaps over a day or two. Not a week later. Even if there is residual compound in the muscle, why would it just decide to absorb a week later? It's highly questionable to say the least. I would never do a suspension that was 100mg/ml. That's just asking for trouble. If you make a cup of tea, would the sugar suspended in the tea be more likely to settle if you put one teaspoon of sugar or four?



Sugar dissolves in water, not suspends. Sucrose is covered in hydroxyl groups so its highly water soluble.


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 19, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> Sugar dissolves in water, not suspends. Sucrose is covered in hydroxyl groups so its highly water soluble.


You're right. Flour then. Whatever. You get my point though. I forgot that sugar was polar but still, I was just using it as an analogy (even though slightly incorrect) and indeed even sugar if mixed too heavily will fall out of solution b/c the reverse reaction takes place in lieu of the forward reaction and ions can no longer enter the solution and the sugar falls to the bottom blah blah blah.

Thanks for the correction. I'll retract that as soon as I can, thanks. It doesn't upset the validity of my assertion though. IOW, I believe my point still stands.


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 19, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> Wouldn't hydrolysis only be required for esterified testosterone? When (how?) does the body hydrolyze testosterone suspension?
> 
> I'm pretty sure that testosterone suspension takes longer to absorb because (even with micronized testosterone) you are injecting testosterone crystals. Only the outermost layer is available for absorption, while dissolved testosterone has 100% surface area/availability.


To your first question, yes. Why would non-esterified testosterone require hydrolysis? That's the whole benefit they're claiming here with suspension in oil right? Only it's not oil-based suspension but rather solution.

To your second question, yes, the testosterone has greater surface area but is still hydrophobic and as to whether the oil or water/suspension in water/suspension in oil is more rapid than the other is still up for grabs. I believe the absorption of the solution would be more rapid but then again, it's in oil. Water would disperse immediately. I think it's a wash honestly. But prove me wrong and I'll be all for it. I'm cannot say for certain but I can make some educated assumptions based on IM delivery methods of medications.


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 19, 2013)

By the way, butthole69 (why that stupid nick?), anyway, by the way, great catch on the sugar mistake and very good and educated points all around. Good work.


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## LuKiFeR (Sep 19, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> By the way, butthole69 (why that stupid nick?), anyway, by the way, great catch on the sugar mistake and very good and educated points all around. Good work.



this is what makes this board great. 
accepting,learning and educating.


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## OuchThatHurts (Sep 19, 2013)

LuKiFeR said:


> this is what makes this board great.
> accepting,learning and educating.


Absolutely. It takes some time to simply learn to say, "I don't know", or, "You are right, my mistake." There is no monopoly on wisdom, not by mods, admins, or anyone else for that matter. And I agree, this is a great board. It's become my #2 slot for reading and posting. Love it.


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