# everyone chime in.....



## J.Lizzle (Aug 16, 2013)

How do you guys continue gaining?
When do you consider it time to cruise/come off?

Im not sure if my genetic response is horrendous..but i look no different on 1g test compared to 200mg test...or test with high npp and test with high tren..

I can add in 150mg oxys for 4weeks and my body doesnt change or look fuller...no sides..bp is good..

The ONLY steroid i can tell im running is Tren because of the shortness of breath...

Im asking as i think i need a good long cruise soon cos im on 1.2g test and 600npp atm...4weeks in and im a stronger but dont look any different to when i was on 200test,300tren...just doesnt make sense..

was gonna cruise on 100test and either 100tren or mast for 8weeks with hcg...then take a newer approach...

Cruise on longer esters..then blast on short esters...do 10week blasts...so say start with 250pharma test as a base with 350tren ace, 600npp...then after 5weeks double the anabolics so you have higher doses last 5weeeks..so last 5weeks would be 250test, 525tren,900npp...cos then you should gain through all 10weeks before myostatin gets high and you find it hard to gain...then CRUISE time....

Will use 8iu ed HGH on blast..then just use 2iu on Cruise most probably..maybe 4iu...

BIT of a long post..but there's lots of good bro's with all different levels of experience so im sure this will benefit a fair few people i hope...

Cheers.
J


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## joshck (Aug 16, 2013)

Whats ur stats bro


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## joshck (Aug 16, 2013)

Lol it is a rather long post and I have a.d.d . So is the question y u cant gain ?...lets take a look at ur diet first


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## vikingquest (Aug 16, 2013)

Yeah definitely diet.  Are you trying to lean bulk and not eating enough or tour macros are whacked.


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## Populus54 (Aug 16, 2013)

Really another diet issue. Do any of you newbies get it. Get you diet in order. I don't know how many times I have to say it all the gear in the world does nothing if you do not eat properly.


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## srd1 (Aug 16, 2013)

You can pump all the aas you want into your body if it isnt getting the nutrition it needs to put the aas to work its useless. Eat yourself sick and your body wont have any choice but to grow brother


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## Cerberus777 (Aug 16, 2013)

Throw another 700-1000 calories at those doses...after a cruise.


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 16, 2013)

Lizzle whats your age and lifestyle brother? Are you hanging  ironbeams 25 stories up burning calories like a wolverine in a fight bro or u a desk jockey..  Its all good asking those hows and whys hell im still learning every day so help us help you with a little more info.. maybe u overtrain?


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 16, 2013)

Deffo ain't my diet.....and deffo not overtraining.

My  training day diet is based on john Meadows....off days is lower carbs higher fatts.

On my phone but will do a rough idea when on laptop in an hour


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 16, 2013)

Just taken 2 photos this morning before meal 1....abs are tensed..

Diet on my mums life looks like this most days...ill eat some shit once or twice a week.

*Training Days*

*Meal 1 *- 50g Protein from beef protein, greens powder, 2whole eggs. 3g omega 3, 2g cla.

*Meal 2* - 200g Xlean Steak mince, greens, handful walnuts.

*Meal 3* - 250g Chicken Breast, 80g carbs from rice.

_Train from 4.30 - 5.30_ - I sip on 80g glyocfuse(80carbs) 20g peptopro, 20g bcaa, 5g creatine)

_PWO_ - Recovery Shake containing 20g pro, 40g carbs.

*Meal 4* - 250g Chicken Breast, 80g carbs from White potato, bit of tomato ketchup. banana.

*Meal 5 *- 200g XLean Steak Mince, 80g carbs from wholegrain rice, 3g omega, 2g cla. 

Works out roughly 280g pro, 400g carbs, 50g fats on Training Day..

*OFF Days.*

*Meal 1* - same as training day

*Meal 2 *- same as training day

*Meal 3 *- 200g diced turkey thigh, greens. 1/2tbsp evoo.

*Meal 4* - 250g steak mince, 2whole eggs. greens

*Meal 5 *- 200g chicken breast, tub of cottage cheese, 50g carbs from wholegrain rice. 3g omega, 2g cla.

250g pro, 60g carbs, 100g fats. 

***I work a desk job 8-4pm most days....so arent active during the day apart from when i train.
Im 188cm( 6ft 1ish) and about 220lbs on waking

Training wise i deffo DONT overtrain...but i dont log it..

For example yesterday i hit shoulders and triceps all in the 8-12rep range apart from drop sets..thats just to failure on drops

3 Working Sets with forced reps on 1st set- Hammer strength shoulder press facing the bench
3 working sets with drop sets - Lateral Raises
3 working sets - Rear Delt flyes
CGBP - 3 working sets
Dumbbell Skullcrushers - 3 working sets
Rope Pushdown - 1 workng set high reps with drop sets.

Any questions ask..on my mums life i'll be truthful..I have NO reason to lie..

Yeah im not in bad shape...but considering i can be on 2.5g of gear and 8iu hgh feel and look the same as when im on 500mg gear it dont make sense..apart from ill be able to stay leaner with the hgh deffo

My aims now and purely to recomp and keep going..i DONT want to be a mass monster..purely going for aesthetics now whilst growing slowly..

I don't want to get flamed...im being honest.

CHEERS GUYS.

J


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 16, 2013)

vikingquest said:


> Yeah definitely diet.  Are you trying to lean bulk and not eating enough or tour macros are whacked.



Replied...deffo wouldnt say its my diet


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## Bull_Nuts (Aug 16, 2013)

Up your   protein and change your training atound for 2 weeks imo


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## myosaurus (Aug 16, 2013)

I advice this to most guys i know. go on an intense cutting phase for 3-4 months every year, then consider coming off for about 3 months AAS free, then consider bulking. since you're not after brutal size, why not drop below 8% and look bigger without shirt then when you're soft? sounds like you're burnt off from gear and its time to clean out.


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## Cerberus777 (Aug 16, 2013)

How is your digestion?  Do you trust your source?


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## turbobusa (Aug 16, 2013)

If you are the same on 1 g vs 200mg it's gonna be diet or training. 
Up the food drop excessive iso moves and hit the compound basics 
like you mean it. You may have to plan long term. How bout build some mass 
then  work on asthetics when you have more to work with?
Some guys do need to break plateaus with heavy compound basis and 
a substantial protein increase.If you know the compound you use is ok then 
look to the obvious. As asked above stats? how long training.
Find the solution that is what this game is.
T


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 17, 2013)

Digestion is fine and yeah i trust my source.

Im 6ft 1...220-225lbs on waking. 
Been training about 3.5years..

Ill look at upping my protein to 350g for the next 6weeks...and focus on compounds...i do eventually when ive got the size want to maintain like 8% all year round..

End August ill probs PCT and come off for a while...although i thought the clearing yourself out cos receptors get saturated etc was broscience?


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 17, 2013)

I slow way down if I don't switch up compounds just about every four weeks.

I never run high test and just blast the shit out of other androgens.

In the past few months I have run

Test-300
Tren-750
Winny- 100

Test-150
DHB- 1000
Tren- 200

Test- 300
Deca- 1200

I just seem to respond better if I switch up the compounds every three weeks or so.

I am about to start
Test-250
NPP -700
Slin- 15iu
Drol- 100
Dbol- 100


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 17, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> I slow way down if I don't switch up compounds just about every four weeks.
> 
> I never run high test and just blast the shit out of other androgens.
> 
> ...



Yeah its just a lot of pinning to keep switching every 4weeks with short esters..

Enig...would you say my diet is ok then? I really can't see my diet being the problem at all...and i swear all the receptor downregulation is broscience.....


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 17, 2013)

Receptor down regulation is any thing but bro science. Many of the top minds in the AAS's game have written about this and concur to it's validity.

There is almost nothing that you take in exogenously that your body will not down or up regulate to in an effort to maintain homeostasis ( hate using that word) I mean that's what insulin resistance is, opiate and alcohol tolerance et cetera.

And as far as pinning short esters- well I don't really, maybe except TrenA and most recently NPP- I switch around long esters and I just go really heavy and usually the kick in period is also about the time I switch.
 For example I ran Deca for a month, started with 1500, then 1200 for the next three weeks... Around the third week is when I could tell the Deca really working. I got two good weeks of it then boom, onto the next compound. Honestly I feel in most 10-12 cycles you seem to make the most gains for 2-3 weeks any ways when the first real kick of the hormone sets in.

This is something I wasn't really all that keen on until it kinda just happened by chance I ended up with a bunch of mixed vials- as in I had two or three of Deca, EQ, DHB, Tren, NPP- so over the past 6 months I was just blasting from one to the next and I noticed how much progression I was making.


Now on top of that- my diet has never been so good before as well. I have been able to really stay on top of my eating and I am getting the kind of calories I really need. I usually go through 3lbs of meat a day to give you an idea plus a few shakes and a a shit load of other foods.

So in summary, my constant switching of hormones and massive clean eating has really been what I feel is keepin the gains coming- oh and not to mention I lift like a fucking maniac and have moved to higher volume and still heavy ass weight.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 17, 2013)

> .......Works out roughly 280g pro, 400g carbs, 50g fats on Training Day..



Edit- and going back and looking- no way... 280g of Protein is not enough. Maybe for maintenance, but to induce growth in a person who's been adding mass for a few years now- no way. You have to keep in mind that every new pound of mass requires a more intense approach, while 1.2-1.5g of protein per lb of lean mass may have worked in the past, your body is also trying to "not be so muscular" you have to eat enormous amounts to fool it into thinking its okay to have and carry so much costly muscle mass and 280g of protein ain't gonna cut it.


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 17, 2013)

Right ok...So my Receptors could be burnt out then? If that's the case a good long 8-10week cruise could be a good idea with focus on lower volume and compounds and an awesome diet...then when im ready start a blast after the cruise..up the volume etc..

So protein wise...350g -400g a day you would recommend?


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## vikingquest (Aug 17, 2013)

J.Lizzle said:


> Just taken 2 photos this morning before meal 1....abs are tensed..
> 
> Diet on my mums life looks like this most days...ill eat some shit once or twice a week.
> 
> ...



Ok,  so here's a breakdown, if you wanna get bigger,  you have to eat more. I know others gave already posted but I will go a bit into detail.  Your breakfast,  you need about 60 grams of carbs. Add oats and about four egg whites.  Meal two,  add a sweet potato. Meal three is decent,  maybe add some healthy fats in there. Avocado or olive oil. I would up your post workout shake to 35-40 grams protein and then make sure you eat the next meal within an hour an a half. Also,  add some kale,  broccoli,  asparagus, green beans and spinach to your meals. Before bed add a few servings of cottage cheese with some blueberries.  

Down regulation is a real thing btw.  Enigmatic is spot on there. His cycles are basically what I run but sometimes I keep one compound the same all the way through and switch up orals and other complimentary compounds every month or so. 

Hope this is what you were looking for. Try it for a couple weeks and you will grow.


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## joshck (Aug 17, 2013)

Protein is somewhat  overrated and overtraining is a word lazy people use


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## joshck (Aug 17, 2013)

A pro in my area has told me that he eats big macs or whatever he can just to get calories in that day..sometimes....id say u still need to eat more...a lot more and try to get most of ur protein from food ..actually his cycles look somewhat likes urs...he changes esters or compounds every 6 weeks tho


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks for the replies!
So even if my goals are recomping i still need to eat more?

I didnt realise the receptor stuff was real..so im gonna cruise for a while then start a blast but changing compounds every 4weeks and just do 12weeks with 2weeks clearance then back to a cruise..

So..
250 Pharma Test E, 700Tren A for 4 weeks
250 Pharma Test E 900Npp for 4 weeks
250 Pharma Test E, 200 Tren E, 600mast E for 4weeks..

Then cruise..

Im not familiar with how that will work as i've always thought u should run long esters for longer.....as they'll only just be kicking in by the time i finish.


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## myosaurus (Aug 17, 2013)

J.Lizzle said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> So even if my goals are recomping i still need to eat more?
> 
> I didnt realise the receptor stuff was real..so im gonna cruise for a while then start a blast but changing compounds every 4weeks and just do 12weeks with 2weeks clearance then back to a cruise..
> ...



like i said before, consider an intense cutting phase for 10-12 weeks. get your bodyfat below 8% you can keep the diet you have now and gradually cut calories down as you lose weight. you'll end up around 200lbs looking 10x better than now then you can consider bulking up staying lean. you can throw in 12.5-20mcg of T3 and the diet will be perfect for cutting.


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## turbobusa (Aug 17, 2013)

You want be a bodybuilder or a physique competitor?  Try this 
3-5 lbs steak tar tar daily as much food you can handle on top of the red meat.
Basic bread and butter bulk cycle Dbol  test and deca.   Train heavy volume
20n 2 0ff. Did that in 90. had a several month training layoff prior . Moved to az .
Did as I mentioned above went from 230 -295 in about 6 months.
Strength was outstanding and size gains were awesome. 
had a gut but I also ended up with over well over 22 inch arms cold .
body was proportionate with lots of muscle to work with. 
The eating part was the biggest chore of that way of doing things.
Trained along side many a pro and had no problem burying guys in a w/o.
Probably not practical for you as it won't work if you have fulltime job.
I did not so it was training food rest and sniz. nothing else. 
No slin nothing fancy. inj dbol nandralone and some pissy little sten amps.
Promise it's not the drugs down regulation bla bla etc.  Training and diet. 
mostly diet. Still don't see your stats . Just more drug schemes.
The wrong track for hunting down size. Real size takes real work. 
No shortcuts.....T


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## 1superman (Aug 17, 2013)

This may help
http://www.anasci.org/vB/bodybuilding-articles/30878-not-gaining-muscle-muscle-building-troubleshooter.html


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 18, 2013)

turbobusa said:


> You want be a bodybuilder or a physique competitor?  Try this
> 3-5 lbs steak tar tar daily as much food you can handle on top of the red meat.
> Basic bread and butter bulk cycle Dbol  test and deca.   Train heavy volume
> 20n 2 0ff. Did that in 90. had a several month training layoff prior . Moved to az .
> ...



I'd say more a "large" physique competitor bro.
Im 225lbs on waking at 188cm..6ft 1-2ish


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 18, 2013)

myosaurus said:


> like i said before, consider an intense cutting phase for 10-12 weeks. get your bodyfat below 8% you can keep the diet you have now and gradually cut calories down as you lose weight. you'll end up around 200lbs looking 10x better than now then you can consider bulking up staying lean. you can throw in 12.5-20mcg of T3 and the diet will be perfect for cutting.



I think I may consider this tbh...but im gonna do this whilst on a cruise dose of gear also just with some HGH


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 18, 2013)

vikingquest said:


> Ok,  so here's a breakdown, if you wanna get bigger,  you have to eat more. I know others gave already posted but I will go a bit into detail.  Your breakfast,  you need about 60 grams of carbs. Add oats and about four egg whites.  Meal two,  add a sweet potato. Meal three is decent,  maybe add some healthy fats in there. Avocado or olive oil. I would up your post workout shake to 35-40 grams protein and then make sure you eat the next meal within an hour an a half. Also,  add some kale,  broccoli,  asparagus, green beans and spinach to your meals. Before bed add a few servings of cottage cheese with some blueberries.
> 
> Down regulation is a real thing btw.  Enigmatic is spot on there. His cycles are basically what I run but sometimes I keep one compound the same all the way through and switch up orals and other complimentary compounds every month or so.
> 
> Hope this is what you were looking for. Try it for a couple weeks and you will grow.




Thanks for the response.
Basically im gonna do 10-12weeks cutting on a cruise dose...

Then ill take into account what you said..up my doses like enigmatic for 12weeks rotating compounds..

And ill aim for 400g Protein, 400g Carbs and 50g Fats on a training day...and on off days just 330g Protein, 225g Carbs, 50g Fats..

As ill be consuming 20g protein during training via pepto pro and 50g protein from my pwo shake as upping it...and carbs will be 150g less as i have 75g during training, 75g post training and 25g pre with my pre workout..so if i remove that i can use the same diet day in day out..just off days i remove the pre/post/intra nutrition.

Sound good?


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## myosaurus (Aug 18, 2013)

J.Lizzle said:


> I think I may consider this tbh...but im gonna do this whilst on a cruise dose of gear also just with some HGH



cutting while cruising may not be ideal. catabolic effects of diet and cardio will cause too much muscle loss. consider cutting while on blast but start lower on dosages then gradually ramp up while calories gradually come down. blast HCG at the end of cycle then go on PCT or cruise while upping calories. 
cycle:
week 1-3
tren ace 50mg eod
eq 600mg/week
test prop 50 mg eod
primo 400mg/week
gh 4iu
t3 12.5mcg eod
adex 1mg Mon/thur

week 4-6
tren ace 75mg eod
eq 600mg/week
test prop 75mg eod
primo 600mg/week
gh 4iu
t3 20mcg eod
adex 1mg mon/thur

week 7-9
tren ace 100mg eod
eq 600mg
test prop 100mg eod
primo 600mg/week
gh 4iu
t3 20mcg ed
adex 1mg mon/thur

week 10-12
primo 600mg/week(week 10 only)
test suspension 50mg ed
mast prop 100mg eod
winstrol suspension 50mg ed
proviron 25mg 2 x day
adex 1mg eod
gh 4iu
t3 20mcg ed
hcg 500iu eod (week 11-12)

week 13-16
clomid 50mg/day
gh 4iu
slin 10iu Pwo with creatine

or you can cruise for 4-6 weeks(week 13-18) on test 200-300mg with increased food intake then do another simpler blast like test/deca for 8 weeks.


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 19, 2013)

Understand myo...but if ive not had a proper break..and i've not gained in ages...i think a good cruise might be worth it first?

My last bloods were fine but ive not come off or had a PROPER cruise/off period in probs 2years or so...

I havent gained anything in over a year...even now im on 1.5g Test...700NPP and 8iu HYGE ed..

OR...i could use Primo instead of tren e..

First pic is from other day..





2nd pic is from October 2011!!!!!! i HAVENT CHANGED





CRUISE time and maybe work on maintaining what i have? Then start cutting on a cycle like you recommend


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 19, 2013)

Just done up a diet for my cruise period..did this by looking at the not gaining sticky on anasci..said aim for 50-60g fat...adequate protein..i was only on 280g protein before so this should work better...carbs are moderate

Not sure how id improve it for my blast...just increase carbs im guessing?

Let me know what you think

*Cruising Diet..*

*9am *– 1.5Scoops Whey Isolate, Super Greens, 3g Omega 3, 2g CLA ( 35 Protein, 5g Fat) – drink this, shower, prep meals etc
*10.30am *– 250g Chicken Breast, 2 whole eggs. (65g Protein, 15g fat)
*1.00pm* – 250g Chicken Breast, 50g carbs from Sweet potato ( 50g pro, 50g carbs)
*3.30pm* – 250g XLean Steak Mince, 50g Carbs from Rice. (50g pro, 50g carbs, 12g fats)
_
Train  5/5.30pm ish and sip on 25g protein from pepto pro, 75g carbs from vitargo, 5g creatine. (75g carbs, 25g pro)
PWO – 70g Protein from Whey Isolate, 70g Maltodextrin (70g pro, 60g carbs)_

*PWO Meal* – 45mins – 1hr post PWO shake – 250g Chicken Breast, 300g white potato, organic honey ( 50g pro, 70g carbs)
*Pre Bed Meal *– Either 250g Steak Mince and 1 Whole Egg or – 3Scoops Protein Blend and 1.5tbsp EVOO + 3g Omega 3, 2g CLA
( 60g pro, 25g fats)

*Totals* = 400g Protein, 300g carbs, 60g Fats

Non Training Day Intra + PWO Meal removed and replaced with  1 Scoop Whey Protein, 1 large banana.
*Totals* = 330g Protein, 200g Carbs, 60g Fats


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## VanillaMandingo (Aug 20, 2013)

I had the exact same issue and was discussing those with guys on anoter board. I Have been at a constant high dose for a couple of years and I truly believe that my body just got used to it. I coincidentally just got injured two weeks ago and had a surgery last week, so I am on cruise for maybe two months or more. 

Afterward, I am going to give my body frequent breaks and adhere to a blast and cruise protocol, which I believe will allow me to begin making progress, again. I did things stupidly and during two blasts earlier this year, made zero progress and then got injured. Lessons learned.


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## J.Lizzle (Aug 20, 2013)

Cruising for a good 12weeks


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## J.Lizzle (Dec 31, 2013)

bumping this...had some time off....cruised for 10weeks...then took 8weeks off aas...

Aiming for a large physique competitor look..

Protein wise im gonna aim for 400-450ish for a few months to see if that helps...


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## humpthebobcat (Dec 31, 2013)

I have a feeling from reading that you feel like you have covered your bases and you've just "maxed out your potential" for lack of a better term...I don't know what the secret is...I max out around 220 and I'm 6'2" but I stuck to pretty basic compounds and cycles...I can't figure out if what sets others above is due to genetics, superior magic combo of training and diet, better gear, or a combination of all three........so, maybe try deep tissue massage or acupuncture to allow for more size...or more gh and slin...and more protein of course....you kind of look bigger in 2011 to me actually

I hope switching it up works for you tho, interested to find out


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## STP (Dec 31, 2013)

I used to have this problem too until I actually started cruising


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## J.Lizzle (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks. 
I'm aiming for 350g protein unless you think I need more?


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## J.Lizzle (Jan 3, 2014)

Bump


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## butthole69 (Jan 3, 2014)

Everyone already told you the answer but you just want to come up with exotic drug protocols instead. If you can't handle feeling unattractive maybe you shouldn't try to gain more size


Kali Muscle - HYPHY F.O.O.D.(For Our Own Dominance) Pt.2 - YouTube


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## chrisr116 (Jan 3, 2014)

Try a couple of these a day for a few months and see what happens.  Make sure your drinking these in addition to your regular diet, not in place of food.  I use enough whey protein (2 or 3 scoops) to get to 50 grams of protein from whey

2 to 3 scoops whey
1 banana
2 cups milk
1 tablespoon peanut butter
2/3 cup raw oats
couple handfuls ice cubes

Blend it, and drink it.  It makes a one quart drinkable bulking shake.  

Should give you around 1100 cals, 135 grams carbs, 40 grams fat, and 75 grams of protein.  

If you drink two of these to your diet per day, in a week you will be adding a whopping 15, 400 calories a week to your diet.  

This is how I make mine, and of course you can adjust ingredients until you get it to your liking.


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## J.Lizzle (Jan 3, 2014)

So basically i should for someone my size really be pushing for like 6000cals a day to grow and probs 400-500g protein?


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## chrisr116 (Jan 3, 2014)

J.Lizzle said:


> So basically i should for someone my size really be pushing for like 6000cals a day to grow and probs 400-500g protein?



What was told to me.....eat for the size you want to be, not the size you are now


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## BIGAINS (Jan 3, 2014)

chrisr116 said:


> What was told to me.....eat for the size you want to be, not the size you are now


This!


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## J.Lizzle (Jan 5, 2014)

Well upped protein to 350....might up to 400 in 4 weeks to see if any noticeable difference


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