# Joint pain???



## jarhead95 (Apr 1, 2007)

Is it normal to have joint pain when your on a cycle or at the end of a cycle? I had some problems with my first cycle. I was taking 500 mg of decca and 450 of test prop a week. Injecting 150 mg test prop every other day. The test prop made me extrememy sick (which is normal for most) and I ended up getting an inner ear infection and a bronchial infection. I went to my doctor and he gave me a strong antibiotic to take care of both infections. He also said that I needed to stop my cycle while on the antibiotics. I lost almost all the gains that I made. Sucked ass!!! My bench went from 315 to 375 in about 5 weeks. Anyhoo, two weeks before I stopped my cycle, I started getting achy joints in my arms. When I stopped the cycle the pain got worse! Its been 3 weeks since I've stopped and the pain is severe enough now where I cant even lift. I havent started any pct. besides the nolvadex that I was taking during the cycle. Aaaand somehow the two vials that I recieved from alin ened up cracked during postal shipment. Can anyone give me some advice with out bagging on me about how I ran my cyle? I thought the joint pain may have came from just lifting too hard on my bench days.

My stats:
190 lbs
5'6
12% body fat

Mike1991, your extremely knowledgeable, any clues on what I should do pal?


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## jarhead95 (Apr 1, 2007)

*2 broken vials*

The two broken vials were 1000 hcg that I was going to use 3-4 weeks after my 10 week cycle to start my natural testosterone levels back up.


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## mike1991 (Apr 2, 2007)

jarhead95 said:
			
		

> Is it normal to have joint pain when your on a cycle or at the end of a cycle? I had some problems with my first cycle. I was taking 500 mg of decca and 450 of test prop a week. Injecting 150 mg test prop every other day. The test prop made me extrememy sick (which is normal for most) and I ended up getting an inner ear infection and a bronchial infection. I went to my doctor and he gave me a strong antibiotic to take care of both infections. He also said that I needed to stop my cycle while on the antibiotics. I lost almost all the gains that I made. Sucked ass!!! My bench went from 315 to 375 in about 5 weeks. Anyhoo, two weeks before I stopped my cycle, I started getting achy joints in my arms. When I stopped the cycle the pain got worse! Its been 3 weeks since I've stopped and the pain is severe enough now where I cant even lift. I havent started any pct. besides the nolvadex that I was taking during the cycle. Aaaand somehow the two vials that I recieved from alin ened up cracked during postal shipment. Can anyone give me some advice with out bagging on me about how I ran my cyle? I thought the joint pain may have came from just lifting too hard on my bench days.
> 
> My stats:
> 190 lbs
> ...




I have no idea. Deca and Test actually boast your immune system. They are often given to people with full  blown aids to help with this I generally never get sick hardly while on a cycle. I do after going off. I think you are just having some bad luck. I usually get joint pain while being on wistrol for a long time but deca usually cures it after I go off it. I always get my pain in my shoulders joints.


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## Big Danny (Apr 2, 2007)

I allways seem to beneficiate from the use of aas and heal a lot of small injuries. Your pain is definetly coming from lifting to heavy. Before dropping the weight I really advice you to take a break from benching, before your injury becoming acute.


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## mike1991 (Apr 2, 2007)

Big Danny said:
			
		

> I allways seem to beneficiate from the use of aas and heal a lot of small injuries. Your pain is definetly coming from lifting to heavy. Before dropping the weight I really advice you to take a break from benching, before your injury becoming acute.



Thats not true and you can't really just rule that out. He didn't say where he was hurting but it could be many things like Fibromyalgia, bursitis, tendinitis, polymyalgia rheumatica, giant cell arteritis or and other soft tissue rheumatic disorders and it is already acute if he has it. Goal is to make sure it doesn't become chronic.


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## MaSTa LifTa (Apr 2, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> I have no idea. Deca and Test actually boast your immune system. They are often given to people with full  blown aids to help with this I generally never get sick hardly while on a cycle. I do after going off. I think you are just having some bad luck. I usually get joint pain while being on wistrol for a long time but deca usually cures it after I go off it. I always get my pain in my shoulders joints.



anabolic steroids just like corticosteroids are immunosuppressants.  aas when used in aids are used to combat the muscle wasting by their anabolic properties and appetite stimulation.


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## mike1991 (Apr 2, 2007)

MaSTa LifTa said:
			
		

> anabolic steroids just like corticosteroids are immunosuppressants.  aas when used in aids are used to combat the muscle wasting by their anabolic properties and appetite stimulation.




Oh for heaven sakes. AAS are no where near corticosteriods and no offense that is just plain stupid. AAS has been shown to increase T-cell count as with a large number of benefits that was not mention. What about cancer pt or people who have severe burns? Seems to be to me if AAS is immunosuppressants that would be the last thing you would want them to get. Since the majority of these people are on reverse isolation.


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## jarhead95 (Apr 2, 2007)

*thanks guys*

Thanks guys!!! Actually I read up on decca and test prop before I started using them. In a lot of cases test prop makes a lot of users feel ill (flu like symptoms) but generally go's away after a few weeks. I guess it can take some time before your body gets used to it. Aaand decca is usually prescibed to full blown aids patients, not for imune deficiencies, but for join pain caused by imune deficiencies. I just dont understand what the hell went wrong! The pain isnt in my shoulders (rotaray cuff) but in my elbow region. I feel a little better today. I went back to the doctor and he gave me some Darviset and a muscle relaxer. Still dont feel comfortable lifting anytime soon though.


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 2, 2007)

If the pain is located in the elbow region, and no where else, then it's probably prudent to believe you have a sports related injury. If so, it's going to take some time to heal.  

If the pain was in all of your joints, that's a different story that would take your M.D to treat. 

Deca, and Test usually help with joint pain, not aggrivate it. 

Cortizone, on the other hand, would likely cause joint pain. It's the exact opposite of an ANABOLIC steroid. It's a cortico-steroid made to REDUCE inflamation, thus joint pain could be a side. There is no comparison between the two steroids. ZERO! They are night and day different. People hear their friend with the shoulder injury got a "steroid shot," and think muscle. lol! I think cortizone, and want to run away like a scared puppy!

Hope you get this under control soon. Marines overcome all obstacles!

Semper Fi Jarhead95


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## MaSTa LifTa (Apr 2, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> Oh for heaven sakes. AAS are no where near corticosteriods and no offense that is just plain stupid. AAS has been shown to increase T-cell count as with a large number of benefits that was not mention. What about cancer pt or people who have severe burns? Seems to be to me if AAS is immunosuppressants that would be the last thing you would want them to get. Since the majority of these people are on reverse isolation.



First off, I never said corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are the same.  I just said they are both immunosuppressants.  Yes, I do in fact realize that anabolic steroids increases T cell count as well as RBC and WBC.  However, in burn victims anabolic steroids are of course used for their anabolic properties since the elevation in WBC is mild at best with anabolic steroids compared to a colony stimulating factor such as filgrastim, pegfilgrastim and the lesser used sargramostim.

1: J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1990 Sep;37(1):71-6. Links 
Anabolic steroid effects on immune function: differences between analogues.Mendenhall CL, Grossman CJ, Roselle GA, Hertelendy Z, Ghosn SJ, Lamping K, Martin K. 
Department of Medicine, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Cincinnati, Ohio 45220.

As an untoward effect of chronic anabolic steroid use, immunologic alterations may be induced. To evaluate this possibility five commercially available steroids with various types of structural differences were studied in male Sprague-Dawley rats. Animals were divided into five groups and treated with testosterone (Group 1), testosterone propionate (Group 2), testolactone (Group 3), oxandrolone (Group 4), and stanozolol (Group 5). Androgenic anabolic steroids were administered daily, subcutaneously dissolved in oil, at a dose of 1.1 mg/kg. Immune alterations were assessed by skin-test responses to phytohemagglutinin. *After five days of treatment (1.1 mg/kg/day) a significant immuno-suppression was observed with all groups.*  Using oxandrolone as the model stimulant, serum testosterone levels were significantly suppressed, while castration abolished the stimulatory effect. These observations indicate that immune alterations do occur with anabolic steroids which are immuno-suppressive. It appears that these changes are associated with altered gonadal testosterone release.

PMID: 2242353 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Of course since it is considered unethical to do studies in patients with dosages of AAS that bodybuilders use, it's impossible to tell the degree of immunosuppression we get at the dosages we take.  In the drug monograph for testosterone enanthate immunosuppression is listed as 2-3% and flu-like syndrome is listed at 1%.  We all know that more than 1 out of every 100 people using AAS gets flu-like syndrome though.  This is because immunosuppression is a dose-related adverse effect of anabolic steroids use.  I practice evidence-based medicine, but as a bodybuilder it is impossible to do so with non-existant studies done in humans at such high doses.


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## mike1991 (Apr 3, 2007)

MaSTa LifTa said:
			
		

> First off, I never said corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are the same.  I just said they are both immunosuppressants.  Yes, I do in fact realize that anabolic steroids increases T cell count as well as RBC and WBC.  However, in burn victims anabolic steroids are of course used for their anabolic properties since the elevation in WBC is mild at best with anabolic steroids compared to a colony stimulating factor such as filgrastim, pegfilgrastim and the lesser used sargramostim.
> 
> 1: J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1990 Sep;37(1):71-6. Links
> Anabolic steroid effects on immune function: differences between analogues.Mendenhall CL, Grossman CJ, Roselle GA, Hertelendy Z, Ghosn SJ, Lamping K, Martin K.
> ...




These studies are from chronic AAS, but who injects AAS SQ. Even then It says it may be induce.  People who smoke may get cancer to but that doesn't mean everyone will. Even then it says 1 out 100 or 2 to 3%. But that doesn't mean everyone will. You would have a greater chance of getting an adverse reaction from ASA then you would with AAS. If you are in the evidence-based medicine area you should know better then use research articles dated 17 years ago. Maybe if it involved bones but not anything use. Just look up something as HTN 17 years ago and read current publications on it. I bet you will see a huge difference. But thinks for the articles anyway.


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## MaSTa LifTa (Apr 3, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> These studies are from chronic AAS, but who injects AAS SQ. Even then It says it may be induce.  People who smoke may get cancer to but that doesn't mean everyone will. Even then it says 1 out 100 or 2 to 3%. But that doesn't mean everyone will. You would have a greater chance of getting an adverse reaction from ASA then you would with AAS. If you are in the evidence-based medicine area you should know better then use research articles dated 17 years ago. Maybe if it involved bones but not anything use. Just look up something as HTN 17 years ago and read current publications on it. I bet you will see a huge difference. But thinks for the articles anyway.



The study shows immunosuppresion after only 5 days if you would read it.  So the chronic effects are only going to be even greater increased immunosupporesion. The comment about 3% is at HRT doses.  That means if you take 10x the dose you are likely to get 20-30% who experience immunosuppresion hence my talking about dose-related side effects.  As for the HTN guidelines of course they will change.  There was a lot of difference between JNC 6 and JNC 7 but that is the difference in treatments.  HTN or the side effects of the drugs used to treat HTN doesn't change.  This is talking about a side effect of a drug.  They don't change.  Testosterone 17 years ago is the same as testosterone today.


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## mike1991 (Apr 3, 2007)

MaSTa LifTa said:
			
		

> The study shows immunosuppresion after only 5 days if you would read it.  So the chronic effects are only going to be even greater increased immunosupporesion. The comment about 3% is at HRT doses.  That means if you take 10x the dose you are likely to get 20-30% who experience immunosuppresion hence my talking about dose-related side effects.  As for the HTN guidelines of course they will change.  There was a lot of difference between JNC 6 and JNC 7 but that is the difference in treatments.  HTN or the side effects of the drugs used to treat HTN doesn't change.  This is talking about a side effect of a drug.  They don't change.  Testosterone 17 years ago is the same as testosterone today.



My friend this study was done on rats not humans. I would be more acceptable to believe it if it was done on pigs. Seriously I would. Listen if AAS was an immunosuppresion it would not be given to Aids pt who have very weak immune system. The same with cancer and third degree burn patients either. You can believe you want but what I read is not the way you are seeing this. JNC 6 and JNC 7 nothing but guidelines which is just suggestions which a guideline is.


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## jarhead95 (Apr 3, 2007)

*Wow*

Wow guys Im glad I sparked a very controversial subject. Sounds like there been some heavy thought on this topic. Anyhoo, just wanted to update my status. I went to an orthopedic specialist today. Aaaand he thought my injury was sports related (lifting too hard) He said the decca and test prop probably did help the injury, but once I started seeing side effects (getting infections) the decca wasnt working to its full potential, and when I started the antibiotics and quit the cycle, the pain was more noticeable. He said there was no way around it. Either stay on the juice and feel less pain, or take the antibiotics and kill the infection. Couldnt do both!


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## MaSTa LifTa (Apr 3, 2007)

jarhead95 said:
			
		

> Wow guys Im glad I sparked a very controversial subject. Sounds like there been some heavy thought on this topic. Anyhoo, just wanted to update my status. I went to an orthopedic specialist today. Aaaand he thought my injury was sports related (lifting too hard) He said the decca and test prop probably did help the injury, but once I started seeing side effects (getting infections) the decca wasnt working to its full potential, and when I started the antibiotics and quit the cycle, the pain was more noticeable. He said there was no way around it. Either stay on the juice and feel less pain, or take the antibiotics and kill the infection. Couldnt do both!



Good choice.  You have plenty of cycles ahead of you.  Just get completely recovered and then go again.  No need to rush things.


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## jarhead95 (Apr 3, 2007)

*next cycle*

How long should I wait until I should start back up again with another cycle? Aaand can anyone help me with my next cycle. I still have a shitload of decca and would like to incorporate that into my next cycle. I know that most of u guys are extremely knowledgeable about this shit. I dont want to use the test prop. Shit hurts too bad aand my body has a hard time getting used to it.


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## MaSTa LifTa (Apr 3, 2007)

jarhead95 said:
			
		

> How long should I wait until I should start back up again with another cycle? Aaand can anyone help me with my next cycle. I still have a shitload of decca and would like to incorporate that into my next cycle. I know that most of u guys are extremely knowledgeable about this shit. I dont want to use the test prop. Shit hurts too bad aand my body has a hard time getting used to it.



I usually take off the same amount of time that I was on my cycle including my PCT.  You can just run the deca with some test enanthate for your next cycle, just don't run it alone without test.


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 4, 2007)

jarhead95 said:
			
		

> How long should I wait until I should start back up again with another cycle? Aaand can anyone help me with my next cycle. I still have a shitload of decca and would like to incorporate that into my next cycle. I know that most of u guys are extremely knowledgeable about this shit. I dont want to use the test prop. Shit hurts too bad aand my body has a hard time getting used to it.



I would wait until you are healed up from the injury. If the test prop has a high ba content, that's one of the culprits for you feeling ill from it. High ba content always gives me a little trouble as well. Hope you heal up soon!

Semper Fi


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## mike1991 (Apr 4, 2007)

I love the test prop from Bio-lab no pain what so ever if you decided to give it a try. 20 bucks for a 10ml vial and its domestic and they are an approve sponsor. Stay away from Stealth supertest. That shit hurts like a mother fucker and excuse my language. But I have heard people have gotten good results from it.


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 4, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> I love the test prop from Bio-lab no pain what so ever if you decided to give it a try. 20 bucks for a 10ml vial and its domestic and they are an approve sponsor. Stay away from Stealth supertest. That shit hurts like a mother fucker and excuse my language. But I have heard people have gotten good results from it.



That's a great deal!! Domestic too! Can't beat that


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## jarhead95 (Apr 4, 2007)

*thanks guys*

Just another quick question. During my cycle I was sweating like a whore in church, expecially at night. When I'd wake up my tshirt was soaked. Is this normal? I figured it was my body trying to rejected the juice. still sweating a bit only at night.


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## mike1991 (Apr 4, 2007)

I use to sweat when I was using tren ace years ago and T3 drugs. My blood sugar was low alot to but I was taking insulin as well. I not for sure if test prop and deca will make you sweat. Never has for me so others may know. Your antibiotics shouldn't make you sweat like that either. What did he or she put you on.


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 4, 2007)

jarhead95 said:
			
		

> Just another quick question. During my cycle I was sweating like a whore in church, expecially at night. When I'd wake up my tshirt was soaked. Is this normal? I figured it was my body trying to rejected the juice. still sweating a bit only at night.



Anytime I'm ON, I sweat at night so bad I have to put a large towel in the bed, as I cannot stand laying back down in cold sweat. Very normal for being ON. It's all part of the iron game. 

Semper Fi


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## mike1991 (Apr 5, 2007)

DEVILDOG said:
			
		

> Anytime I'm ON, I sweat at night so bad I have to put a large towel in the bed, as I cannot stand laying back down in cold sweat. Very normal for being ON. It's all part of the iron game.
> 
> Semper Fi



That sucks, I never sweat unless Im on insulin, tren,T3. What was your MOS Devil dog?


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 6, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> That sucks, I never sweat unless Im on insulin, tren,T3. What was your MOS Devil dog?



0311 Rifleman
0331 Machinegunner

Enlisted in the early 1989-1990's. Made it to NCO, E-4 (Corporal), and got my Bloodstripe.

Miss some of it, but not all of it. LOL! I was a single guy back then too! Even had some money then too! Now, I get robbed daily by the wife, and kids. LOL!


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 6, 2007)

Btw, tren is by far the worst offender in making me sweat at night! The worst! Great stuff otherwise.


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## mike1991 (Apr 6, 2007)

DEVILDOG said:
			
		

> Btw, tren is by far the worst offender in making me sweat at night! The worst! Great stuff otherwise.



MCRD at San Deigo or Parris? Where did you do your SOI at.


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 6, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> MCRD at San Deigo or Parris? Where did you do your SOI at.



MCRD P.I. (If I went through MCRD S.D, I would be sitting here wearing sunglasses, drinking a beer, and smoking a cigarette as I would be a Hollywood Marine. LOL!) 

3rd Battalion Mighty Mike

3rd deck topside.

School of Infantry was at Camp Geiger, North Carolina. 

Semoer Fi


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## mike1991 (Apr 8, 2007)

So you think Hollywood Marines are not as good since there are no sand fleas in S.D.


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## DEVILDOG (Apr 8, 2007)

mike1991 said:
			
		

> So you think Hollywood Marines are not as good since there are no sand fleas in S.D.



LOL!! Not at all! I wouldn't wish sand fleas on anyone. I went through in the Summer too.


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