# Is it really "just that easy" ?



## Concreteguy (Mar 20, 2015)

I just read BIGA's Principles of growing. I'm reading along taking it all in and it was nothing I haven't heard a hundred, million times before and BAM. There is was, a moment that almost made the hair on my arms go up. 
 But before I go into what I read, let me tell you who I am. I'm a guy like any other that walked in a gym and got hooked, got into gear about five years later and started competing about five years after that. Being the typical *white guy with freckles* Lee Haney wasn't feeling any pressure with me out there training. I was eating, training, and doing gear correctly. Maybe on the heavy side, but everything was on point and I was growing. It wasn't until I started doing shows that I started finding the big guys. I was a big guy in my gym but not among BIG GUYS. I excepted this fact and just won shows on balance and conditioning. I'm in the process of getting ready now.
  So lets go back to a couple hours ago. I'm reading along in this article and the first thing that struck me was BIGA said to try to take in 500grams of protein a day. That's a lot and I have never done this. I have read the kidneys have a problem with this much. So I never did it. Then this is what blew me away.
He wrote at the end. Make sure and eat 500grams of protein. All steroids do is make you convert protein to muscle. SO THE MORE YOU EAT THE BIGGER YOU WILL GET.
 Guy do I have to tell you what's going on in my mind? Is it really just this fucking easy? Literally all these years of training and not being the "big guy" is because of ((((M E)))) not eating enough fucking protein? As I came to my senses, I pulled the revolver out of my mouth and headed to the refrigerator for some cottage cheese. He made it sound so easy. Have a protein shake with every meal. That's it. I'm not kidding when I say this. This is the only thing I have never tried in my years training and that's going to change. Effective today!
 What are your feelings on this guys?

CG


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## sodzl (Mar 20, 2015)

Sometimes i think there's too much emphasis on all the science.  What works in the lab and in theory doesn't always pan out in real life.  I have to agree with him to a point.  My best cycle was on a low dose (todays standards) .  I kept a couple shaker bottles in my mini fridge and would take a couple sips every twenty minutes or so.  How many times have we seen a guy claim to be a "hard gainer" and his diet consist of pop tarts, creatine, pizza and an occasional chicken breast.


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## Concreteguy (Mar 20, 2015)

YA man. Now your getting it. Could it be as easy as he says. "The more protein you eat the bigger you will get"? Tell ya what on paper it sure makes sense. Damn, I just never looked at it as what does steroids do? So enable them to do there job. IE: Feed them protein. Crist sacks, it's to easy. Talk about a forehead slapper. And I have read that article a dozen times over the years..........

CG


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## lycan Venom (Mar 20, 2015)

watch rich piana's YouTube videos. it's all he preaches. eat more! train more! eat 8-12 times a day, force it! train as hard and long as you can, and then more!

it's just constant anabolic vs never allowing a catabolic state. I'm no biochemist scientist but it makes since, eat and grow. each person's body will react differently, muscle, fat or organ issues. experiment and let us know.


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## Magnus82 (Mar 20, 2015)

Lol CG, the epiphany! As simple as it is,  many don't do it.  Some think they do,  but don't.  I kind of did the same thing but with carbs.  I've helped several people that despite my advise, kept upping the dose and upping the dose.  Then add slin, peps, gh, HIT, DC, High volume, high frequency,  two a days...... ugh! I talked 2 of them into running a modest 500mg/wk test 500mg/wk deca/npp but make damn sure to get 500g protein with no less than 75% of them coming from real food.  Let's just say they were both blown away. Great thread GC.  The more you know, the more you grow!


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## Concreteguy (Mar 20, 2015)

Maybe we could move this towards the most efficient  way to get huge protein values down the trap? Are there any aids we can take to help our kidneys slamming this much protein? Or do you think it's OK? 
 I'm not kidding, Johnnies got a new par of shoes baby. I'm going to walk this walk...........

CG


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## Magnus82 (Mar 20, 2015)

I think a lot of the kidney damage can be contributed to high tren and/or pain killers.  Honestly I don't run very high doses on a bulk and never tren so my concern with excessive protein is minimal.  Cutting I will use tren but calories are lower and protein is closer to 1g to 1.5g/bw. I know blood work doesn't alway show the extent of all kidney damage,  but it always comes back within range after a bulk.


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## Elvia1023 (Mar 20, 2015)

I think it is more being consistent with everything but diet being the most important element. The reason I don't look a certain way is purely due to diet... mine is pretty crap. If I had ate 500g protein on a consistent basis over the last few years (with good carbs and fats) I would look so much better.

I don't think you need 500g protein... far from it... but sure it will work. 

Carbs are protein sparing and that is key. There are some massive ripped guys consuming 250g protein (or less) ed. More is not necessarily better. It's your complete diet that counts. I have read some of your log and your diet is a bit like mine... all over the place. Honestly if someone offered me $10,000 to eat say 50/40/20 for 7 meals a day all healthy and clean for 1 week I am not sure I would be able to do it  That's my goal though to eat consistently and about 350g protein per day (50g in approx. 7 meals).


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## Magnus82 (Mar 20, 2015)

I should also mention a large part of my protein intake are egg whites.. They are low in phosphorous which makes them easier on the kidneys.  I also consume a lot of garlic, onions, olive oil, cranberries, beets,  and asparagus which all aid in proper kidney function.  I have also heard ginger root and turmeric tea make a great kidney detox.  I would also think inj curcumin would be a great addition.


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## srd1 (Mar 20, 2015)

Cool thread....Diet has always been my achiles heal gets me every time I start out great out of the gate but it never fails 3 or 4 weeks in my appetite tanks. Any fail proof methods to be able to choke down all that food??


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## Concreteguy (Mar 20, 2015)

srd1 said:


> Cool thread....Diet has always been my achiles heal gets me every time I start out great out of the gate but it never fails 3 or 4 weeks in my appetite tanks. Any fail proof methods to be able to choke down all that food??



 This is a great question. It hits firmly in the hearts of all of us.
How do we stay hungry for  ( What ) foods?

 CG


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## lycan Venom (Mar 21, 2015)

maybe I'll invent some kind of proprietary blend of ingredients that stimulate appetite... they make the shit for reptiles, why not humans.. if eq and tren make you hungry, what pharmaceutical compound can make you constantly hungry!? last cycle I I was on both eq and tren combined with clen.. I thought I was going to not eat at all and I had the complete opposite.. I couldn't stop eating.


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## AnaSCI (Mar 21, 2015)

For those that have not read Big A's article from 2002, here it is in it's entirety: 

http://www.anasci.org/vB/weight-lifting-training-articles/8215-growth-principles-beginners.html

This is a general guide for beginning and intermediate bodybuilders that don't know the principles behind muscle growth yet or are not happy with the results that they are currently getting.

We will go through training, diet and gear. I will
tell you the principles behind everything that I
recommend for you to do, so you can understand why
certain things happen, so in the future you can fix
problems yourself.
Bodybuilding is a very simple and logical endeavour.
Everything that you do has to be logical. Only logical
actions will give you results. Every time that you
come across a new principle, always ask yourself it it
makes logical sense. If it does not, dump it!

*TRAINING*

Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When
does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something
that it has not done before. When is something that it
has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%.
That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train
to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the
muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort
otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow.
Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial
to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100%
effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then,
what is the point to do a second set of that exercise?
You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has
been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should
you do a second one? You will just eat into your
recovery ability.
So, you should only do one set to failure per
exercise. Later on, I will describe the training
program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.

A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The
muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous
system is recovered. It takes roughly 24hours for the
nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then
will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you
should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train
different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous
system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system
recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you
train again, so the body has to concentrate again on
recovering the nervous system.
A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed,
Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including
myself, train like this offseason for maximum growth.
Even if you use streroids, you still have to train
like this. Steroids increase your recovery ability,
but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The
extra strength will give you the ability to train
harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the
extra recovery that the steroids will give you.

The following is a great training program that I
recomend:

Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Triceps
* Incline press - warm-up sets, 1 work set
* Flat flyes - 1 work set
* Millitary press - 1 warm-up, 1 work set
* Lateral flyes - 1 work set
* Rear delt machine - 1 work set
* Tricep pushdowns - 1 warm-up, 1 work set
* Lying tricep extensions - 1 work-set

Wed - Quads, Hams, Calves
* Squats - warm-ups, 1 work set
* Leg press - work set
* Leg extension - work set
* Leg curl - warm-up, work set
* Stiff leg deadlift - work set
* Standing calf raise - work set

Fri - Abs, Back, Bis
* Rope crunches - warm up, work set
* Lat pull down - warm-ups, work set
* Deadlift - warm-up, work set
* Bent-over rows - work set
* Shrugs - work set
* Standing BB curls - warm up, work set
* Concentration curl - work set

You do a lot of warm-ups for your first exercise of
the day. You do one warm-up for the first exercise of
each bodypart, only to optimise the firing of te
neuropathways.
Let's use chest as an example - if for example your
max (work set) in the incline press is 3 plates, then
you do 2 warm-ups with the bar, 2 warm-ups with one
plate, 1 warm-up with 2 plates and then your work set
with 3 plates. The work set is a set where you fail at
about 6 reps. Every workout, you have to do more reps
or increase the weight in that work set (remember, the
muscle has to do something that it has not done
before). So if one work out you fail with 6 reps, the
following nothing less than 7. When you reach 8 reps,
the following workout you should do (increase) a
weight where you can do minimum 4 reps. Then increase
your reps again every workout until you reach 8 again,
and so on. Each rep has a tempo of 2-1-1. That is 2
seconds in the negative, one second in the contraction
and 1 second in the positive.
Then, after you fail in the incline press, you move
straight to flat flyes. You do not need a warmp now
because your chest is more than warm after you failed
on presses.
And that's it for chest. The basic routine stays the
same. If you want variety, small changes as using DB's
instead of BB or doing flat presse and incline flyes
for example, is mor ethan enough variety to keep the
muscle 'confused'.

*DIET*

VERY simple. Very important that you try to get as
close to 500g of protein per day. Easiest way to do
that is to have a whey protein shake in water with
every meal. Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories
don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do.
If you get to add fat on, just cut out the fats and
keep your carbs bellow 300g/day. That's all it is!
Very simple, but hard to stick to, so not many people
get results. On gear, the more protein you eat, the
more you grow. Is as simple as that. Gear maximises
protein synthesis.

*GEAR*

You need a testosterone base. 750mg/week is plenty.
You need an anabolic - deca or Eq at 400mg/week is
plenty. You need for optimum growth, a good oral like
d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d.
You use the test and the anabolic non stop. The oral
is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. Every 6th week (the half
way point between the off oral period - so 2 weeks
after you finish the oral) you have a blood test. If
the blood test is OK, then you can begin your next 4
weeks on oral. There is no reason for you to come off.
The only 2 reasons are health or your receptors are
saturated. If the regular blood test is OK, your
health is OK. If you are still making progress, your
receptors are OK. Coming off, will just sabotage your
gains. That's why I do not believe in set time frames
for cycles. Listen to your body. When you use the
oral, you need to use all the liver aids available - Synthergine,
milk thistle, L-methionine, liv-52, etc. Of course you
cannot drink or do rec drugs during that time. Using
these precautions, your blood tests will be OK.
You also need to use an anti estrogen like Nolvadex at
10mg/d throughout the whole time. Also, you have a
choice between HCG every 4 weeks at 5000IU or Clomid
at 50mg EOD. These will make sure that your balls will
stay at a decent size and they will not forget how to
function.
The blood tests that you need are: full blood count,
liver and kidney function tests, FSH, LH, TSH,
cholesterol.
If the Total protein test in the liver tests is high,
that is because of your diet. You need to keep an eye
on the Billirubin and Urea test results. Your FSH and
LH will be suppressed - that's normal because of the
gear. If the TSH is low, add 20mcg/d T3. If the kidney
function is off, then drink more. protein stresses the
kidneys, so you need more fluids.
When you eventually come off the gear, you make sure
that you are off the orals. Then cut out the anabolic
over 2 weeks. Then the testosterone over 3 weeks. One
week after that, you need to add primo tabs or anavar
(oxandrin) for 3 weeks. That will ensure that you will
keep your gains.
Ideally do a gainkeeper's formula that is outlined in another article.

These are the basic principles behind muscle growth. You do the above you will GROW, no matter what.


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## Magnus82 (Mar 21, 2015)

[bd1;264826]Cool thread....Diet has always been my achiles heal gets me every time I start out great out of the gate but it never fails 3 or 4 weeks in my appetite tanks. Any fail proof methods to be able to choke down all that food??[/QUOTE]

I've always said eating is by far the hardest part.  When you bulk your stuffing your face to the point of almost puking.  When cutting you want to eat the paint off the walls.  I've found drinking my calories help a ton. Breakfast usually a shake consisting of 16oz egg whites, 1 whole egg,  1 banana, and 2 scoops protein powder along with 2 pieces 12 grain toast topped with avocado. About 110g protein in that meal.  The shake because its blended speeds digestion and I'm quite hungry by 11am. I will also use this shake pre and post workout.  That's 330g already.  Add 3 more meals and it gets you there pretty easily.  Also for more protein for those of you  that eat rice,  make ham fried rice.  Make 2  cups rice and add 6 scrambled eggs, diced ham, chicken, beef,  or shrimp.  Before bed eat cottage cheese or make yogurt with plain  Greek yogurt,  protein powder, coconut oil,  and sugar free instant jello.


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## Magnus82 (Mar 21, 2015)

lycan Venom said:


> maybe I'll invent some kind of proprietary blend of ingredients that stimulate appetite... they make the shit for reptiles, why not humans.. if eq and tren make you hungry, what pharmaceutical compound can make you constantly hungry!? last cycle I I was on both eq and tren combined with clen.. I thought I was going to not eat at all and I had the complete opposite.. I couldn't stop eating.



Ghrp6


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## AnaSCI (Mar 21, 2015)

srd1 said:


> Cool thread....Diet has always been my achiles heal gets me every time I start out great out of the gate but it never fails 3 or 4 weeks in my appetite tanks. Any fail proof methods to be able to choke down all that food??





Concreteguy said:


> This is a great question. It hits firmly in the hearts of all of us.
> How do we stay hungry for  ( What ) foods?
> 
> CG





lycan Venom said:


> maybe I'll invent some kind of proprietary blend of ingredients that stimulate appetite... they make the shit for reptiles, why not humans..



Synthelamin has always helped boost my appetite to the point of not wanting to stop eating!


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## Sully (Mar 21, 2015)

High protein intake is hard on the kidneys? Wrong. That idea is based on one study, done several decades ago, and is a terribly flawed analysis for one major reason. The study was done on people ALREADY EXPERIENCING KIDNEY FAILURE! The conclusions drawn from that study cannot and should not be applied to healthy people with no symptoms of kidney distress/failure. All studies done since then, on healthy trained people, show no indications that even a massive intake of protein has any negative consequences on kidney health or overall health and well being. Quite the opposite actually. Several studies done in the last few years show that increased protein consumption leads to higher metabolic rates, lower body fat percentage, and higher percentage of muscle mass. Plus, studies on eggs, whole eggs specifically, show that people that eat at least 3 whole eggs a day burn fat more easily, build muscle more easily, have lower percentages of body fat and higher amounts of lean muscle mass. 

One last point, the body is almost incapable of metabolizing protein for storage as adipose tissue(fat). The pathways may exist, but they are incredibly inefficient, at best. A recent study conducted on healthy/fit trained individuals fed them super high amounts of protein, far in excess of their maintenance caloric needs, and there was shown to be no increase in their bodies fat mass from the extra protein intake.


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## tri-terror (Mar 21, 2015)

Man CG, I'm so fucking glad you posted this...  sometimes you just need a reality check right?

I have never gotten 500g protein down the hatch.   Ever.

But.  The best I have ever looked offseason was running 750mg sust a week with 400mg tren hex.  I was training Dorians blood and guts routine and consistent in eating at least 350g protein per day.  I didn't track any other macros but I tried to keep my fat reasonable and ate a lot of carbs around my workout.


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## Concreteguy (Mar 21, 2015)

tri-terror said:


> Man CG, I'm so fucking glad you posted this...  sometimes you just need a reality check right?
> 
> I have never gotten 500g protein down the hatch.   Ever.
> 
> But.  The best I have ever looked offseason was running 750mg sust a week with 400mg tren hex.  I was training Dorians blood and guts routine and consistent in eating at least 350g protein per day.  I didn't track any other macros but I tried to keep my fat reasonable and ate a lot of carbs around my workout.



It all makes so much sense in retrospect. Go figure. I've been looking back over all my diets and pics, it points to the same fucking thing. My biggest sizes came with the biggest protein levels. And that was never over 300grams. This diet came from one of PMs most popular trainers. 
 For some reason reading this just set a light off in my head. I'm going to go with it and ramp the #s up to 500 an ride it out. Were getting great food and sup ideas to eat and stay hungry.
 Guys, please keep it coming!

  CG


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## pesty4077 (Mar 21, 2015)

I can't eat that much protein. I eat about 250 now, but hey I don't need to be real big. I will go up to 300 Grams soon though. I do want to comment though. When I eat 400 Grams for a show, I look at my best and BF drops. I am not eating as much fats or carbs either.


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## Concreteguy (Mar 21, 2015)

I remember reading that your body can only assimilate approx 40 grams of protein at one meal. I think it was one of Arnolds books?
Does anyone have some real numbers we can hang are hats on when it come to this.
 How many grams of protein can the average man handle in one meal?
 I'm thinking maybe 2 yogurts a day between meals to help with digestion. Thoughts on this?


  CG


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## rangerjockey (Mar 21, 2015)

Never read that article before....I am sitting at work now dumbfounded, 500 grams holy crap. It makes total sense just look at the power lifters who eat EVERYTHING.  They have to be eating close to 500 grams of protein.  I am thinking of the Strongman competetions that big Sweed...Magnus


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## Magnus82 (Mar 21, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> I remember reading that your body can only assimilate approx 40 grams of protein at one meal. I think it was one of Arnolds books?
> Does anyone have some real numbers we can hang are hats on when it come to this.
> How many grams of protein can the average man handle in one meal?
> I'm thinking maybe 2 yogurts a day between meals to help with digestion. Thoughts on this?
> ...



In my own experience,  my body needs 200g+ protein to grow.  There were times I was growing taking in 2 meals per day.  If the 40g were true,  there would be no possible way to grow, but I did and with marginal difference from when I was eating 6 meals. Keep in mind some proteins take over 6 hours to digest. So to answer your question,  I'm a firm believer in if you create the environment,  your body will use all of it.  
I also think yogurt is a great aid in digestion.  I use plain Faye all all the time and add what I like.


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## Sully (Mar 21, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> I remember reading that your body can only assimilate approx 40 grams of protein at one meal. I think it was one of Arnolds books?
> Does anyone have some real numbers we can hang are hats on when it come to this.
> How many grams of protein can the average man handle in one meal?
> I'm thinking maybe 2 yogurts a day between meals to help with digestion. Thoughts on this?
> ...



The body can and will process and make use of every gram of protein you take in. The idea of only taking in Xgrams of protein in a meal is slightly true. Following a workout, we have an anabolic window where the body is primed for recovery and growth. In that time window, approximately 20-40 grams of protein can be used by the body specifically for protein synthesis. It actually takes more protein to get the same anabolic response as we get older. So, guys in their late thirties and older should try to hit the 40 gram mark. 

Any protein consumed in excess of the 20-40 grams used for protein synthesis is not discarded of passed through as waste as some people will tell you. The body still has to digest it, and it will oxidize it/burn it for fuel just like it would with any other macronutrients taken in at any time of the day.

So, the short answer is to take in at least 20-40 grams post workout, but there's no reason to limit yourself to only 20-40 grams. The body will still use the extra protein, but just for energy and not for protein synthesis.


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## Concreteguy (Mar 21, 2015)

How about peptopro? The characteristics of this is that it goes directly through the stomach walls and gets to your system quickly. Do you think this would be a better way to slam protein?


  CG


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## Cerberus777 (Mar 21, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> How about peptopro? The characteristics of this is that it goes directly through the stomach walls and gets to your system quickly. Do you think this would be a better way to slam protein?
> 
> 
> CG



I'll answer 2 questions here...and I've yet to figure out my multi quotes.   

You can used as much protein as you can digest.  You'll used it as fuel if you don't have the need or hormone environment to grow.   But the calories can't be the majority from protein, or you'll start to prefer this as a fuel source.  You may need extra enzymes to break up the protein,  we produce less as we age.

Pepto pro and EAA are great ways to up protein in 2 ways. One they require no digestion.  Two they will signal your body to start protien synthesis if taken pre meal.


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## Magnus82 (Mar 21, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> How about peptopro? The characteristics of this is that it goes directly through the stomach walls and gets to your system quickly. Do you think this would be a better way to slam protein?
> 
> 
> CG



CG,  have you ever looked into Emeric's DWGE.  I think this would be the perfect thing your looking for.


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## Sully (Mar 21, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> How about peptopro? The characteristics of this is that it goes directly through the stomach walls and gets to your system quickly. Do you think this would be a better way to slam protein?
> 
> 
> CG



I'm not that familiar with peptopro, so I can't speak about that directly. But, what the research shows is that a protein blend is superior to a single type of protein. Part of that is due to the varying amino acid profiles of the different proteins, but mostly it is due to the different digestion rates. The fast digesting proteins like the hydrolyzed whey and whey isolate are digested first, then slower proteins like egg and soy are next, followed by slow digesting proteins like micellar casein and milk protein isolate. The "time-release" nature of the protein blend actually prolongs the anabolic window in the body and allows protein synthesis to happen over a longer period of time, thus allowing the body to repair and build muscle for a longer period of time. When I comes to protein, faster isn't always better. Which might be partly responsible for the idea that whole food meals are superior to shakes, because they digest slower and allow a longer period of amino acid release in the body. 

Of course, none of this is taking into account blood sugar or gastric emptying times, which can have their own differing effects on protein synthesis and nutrient shuttling. That's almost a whole other conversation.


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## Concreteguy (Mar 21, 2015)

Magnus82 said:


> CG,  have you ever looked into Emeric's DWGE.  I think this would be the perfect thing your looking for.



 Seriously, what is  DWGE? I really haven't followed Emeric on any level.

  CG


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## sodzl (Mar 22, 2015)

Digested wheat germ extract.  I think.


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## Magnus82 (Mar 22, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> Seriously, what is  DWGE? I really haven't followed Emeric on any level.
> 
> CG



Here is a post by Emeric:  



emeric delczeg said:


> There are many prebiotics on the market the most popular is inulin, I know some people are confused ,the difference between DWGE and inulin : Inulins are a group of naturally occurring polysaccharides produced by many types of plants, and is most often extracted from chicory, the inulins belong to a class of dietary fibers known as fructans and dozn`t contains glucozoid 2-metoxi-p-benzokinon (2-MBQ) and in 2,6-dimetoxi-p-benzokinon (2,6-DMBQ).
> 
> The DWGE has no fructans, no gluten and contains glucozoid 2-metoxi-p-benzokinon (2-MBQ) and in 2,6-dimetoxi-p-benzokinon (2,6-DMBQ) and naturally occuring oligopetisaccharides. There is also other type of prebiotic containing fructosaccharides (FOS).
> 
> ...



Wheat Germ Extract - a gluten free prebiotc containing mixture of biologically active materials including benzoquinones. The 2,6-dimethoxy-p-benzoquinone (2,6DMBQ), derived from different plant species, is of special interest. The wheat (Triticum vulgaris) is one of the largest known natural sources of these compounds: oligosaccharides and oligopeptides which helps to stimulate the growth and/or activity of bacteria in the digestive system with a beneficial effect in the digestive process. After the harmful proteins of gluten are eliminated and the fructans are disengaged, the wheat germ extract concentration allows the immunomodulatory effects of the substituted benzo-quinones to be obtained without the consumption of impractically large amounts of wheat germ.


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## tri-terror (Mar 22, 2015)

Has anyone actually used dwge?


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## Magnus82 (Mar 22, 2015)

tri-terror said:


> Has anyone actually used dwge?



I do.  I've been suffering from ulcerative colitis since I was 16. Although I had no medication for it my diet was limited.  IBS,  severe gas and bloating, stomach aches,  heartburn,  and loose stools were all things I just learned to live with.  I tried different otc medications and probiotics with no success.  Even made my own yogurt with specialized bacteria strains.  Aside from diet,  nothing helped.  When Emeric came out with DWGE I was hopeful as I believe he is one of the greatest minds in modern bbing today.  Less than 3 weeks on and I felt like I was leading global a normal life,  returning foods I once enjoyed.  Just the ability to eat more food was huge.  It been a game changer for me. My sister in law suffers from CIC (Chronic Ideopathic Constipation) and she was able to come off Linzess with the use of DWGE.


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## chicken_hawk (Mar 22, 2015)

Elvia1023 said:


> I think it is more being consistent with everything but diet being the most important element. The reason I don't look a certain way is purely due to diet... mine is pretty crap. If I had ate 500g protein on a consistent basis over the last few years (with good carbs and fats) I would look so much better.
> 
> I don't think you need 500g protein... far from it... but sure it will work.
> 
> Carbs are protein sparing and that is key. There are some massive ripped guys consuming 250g protein (or less) ed. More is not necessarily better. It's your complete diet that counts. I have read some of your log and your diet is a bit like mine... all over the place. Honestly if someone offered me $10,000 to eat say 50/40/20 for 7 meals a day all healthy and clean for 1 week I am not sure I would be able to do it  That's my goal though to eat consistently and about 350g protein per day (50g in approx. 7 meals).



I land here with Elvia. CHO spare protein and without CHO the PRO you ingest will just be converted to energy anyway. 

And that may be the reason 500g of PRO works so well for them. 1. Energy is a priority of anabolism 2. 500g of PRO will provide plenty extra so they never become energy deficient. 3. The result is a theoretical state of anabolism.

My thinking is that 300g of PRO with more CHO would be a better answer. I also think that using extra BCAA's or EAA's between meals may be an even better answer. BCAA's and more specifically Luecine of around 4+ g triggers PRO synthesis on an empty stomach. On the other hand 10g or EAA's provides the equivalent anabolism of 40g of whey w/out the bloat.If it were me, I would start there, by simply adding 5g of BCAA's between meals.

Hawk


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## Concreteguy (Mar 22, 2015)

chicken_hawk said:


> I land here with Elvia. CHO spare protein and without CHO the PRO you ingest will just be converted to energy anyway.
> 
> And that may be the reason 500g of PRO works so well for them. 1. Energy is a priority of anabolism 2. 500g of PRO will provide plenty extra so they never become energy deficient. 3. The result is a theoretical state of anabolism.
> 
> ...



 CH, you make perfect sense in what your saying. But let me ask you this. BIGA is an IFBB Pro and he's saying 500grams of protein. He isn't giving a choice of carbs to spare protein. Why do you think this is. Is the article older than current wisdom on nutrient?
 I'm thinking about just hammering the 500gms protein and doing a lot of digestive enzymes to keep it being used. But I do get what your saying.

CG


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## chicken_hawk (Mar 22, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> CH, you make perfect sense in what your saying. But let me ask you this. BIGA is an IFBB Pro and he's saying 500grams of protein. He isn't giving a choice of carbs to spare protein. Why do you think this is. Is the article older than current wisdom on nutrient?
> I'm thinking about just hammering the 500gms protein and doing a lot of digestive enzymes to keep it being used. But I do get what your saying.
> 
> CG



Well, here is how I see it. 
1. You like me have been around competitive bbers for some time. I say that to remind you that it is a mix of science, mysticism and tradition. I have seen it 1000 times, if big time bber X says, squeeze your balls while doing 1 arm curls then all his followers will squeeze their balls too. Pro bbers become cult like idols and their word is law. We have a former pro from the 90's here and if he told his guys to eat baby food they would. Anyone else remember that?

2. Almost everything works. There are so many programs, both training and nutrition, DC, HIT, CHO backloading, CHO cycling, High test-low tren or high tren-low test. They all work. But, what works best? That's what I want to know and attempt to find out. I believe 500g will make an improvment is ones progress, but is it the best and fastest? I doubt it.

3. I prefer to take small steps when I try something new (and I do like trying new things). I would add 50-75g to what I was currently doing for a month and then judge from there. I mean I know 4g of AAS works better than 2g, but I am just not going there all at once.

4. 500g is not the secret. Actually the secret is no secret, it's just expensive. GH is the reason Pros are so big. not the 5iu I fool around with, no 15+iu is where it's at. Take 15-20iu PRW ED to get IGF levels up and that is where the mass is at.

I am not an authority on anything so please just take my thoughts as just that, my thoughts. 

Hawk


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## nothuman (Mar 22, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> How about peptopro? The characteristics of this is that it goes directly through the stomach walls and gets to your system quickly. Do you think this would be a better way to slam protein?
> 
> 
> CG



That would be a REALLY expensive way to consume large amounts of protein


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## squatster (Mar 23, 2015)

Great read again guys. I have never been a huge guy - at 5'-8" and the most I have ever weighed was 232 I have never Been over 10%  body fat either
The best gains I ever did was-70+ grams of protein ever 2 to 2 1/2 hours - was going up pounds pr week and fat was decreasing and then I quit every thing after my peptide log- I do 2 or 3 donuts per day now and that's it for my protein-(Sorry - have to justify the donut eating some how so I say there is protein in them) - haven't touched a weight since.
You guys with these great articles are getting my flat little ass going again
This place is alive again
Thanks guys
Keep them coming


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## rangerjockey (Mar 23, 2015)

Could you imagine the cost of 15 iu's daily of GH,....? to rich for m blood...literally


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## Sandpig (Mar 23, 2015)

rangerjockey said:


> Could you imagine the cost of 15 iu's daily of GH,....? to rich for m blood...literally



I can't even afford 3 IU's


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## chrisr116 (Mar 23, 2015)

chicken_hawk said:


> Well, here is how I see it.
> 1. You like me have been around competitive bbers for some time. I say that to remind you that it is a mix of science, mysticism and tradition. I have seen it 1000 times, if big time bber X says, squeeze your balls while doing 1 arm curls then all his followers will squeeze their balls too. Pro bbers become cult like idols and their word is law. We have a former pro from the 90's here and if he told his guys to eat baby food they would. Anyone else remember that?
> 
> 2. Almost everything works. There are so many programs, both training and nutrition, DC, HIT, CHO backloading, CHO cycling, High test-low tren or high tren-low test. They all work. But, what works best? That's what I want to know and attempt to find out. I believe 500g will make an improvment is ones progress, but is it the best and fastest? I doubt it.
> ...



Your right, Hawk.  Almost anything works if done consistently.  We are definitely cultish in our behavior.  But, remember, ball squeezing is done during squats by the spotter, not during 1 armed curls.  Well, that how we do it here... lol


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## Kafka82 (Mar 23, 2015)

500 especially if you really big doesn't seem too much 

I'm 200 lb and can easily eat 350g please day with just a post workout shake 
With good effort adding 150g more is not difficult...questione Is do we need that much?
If you look at scientific articles the answer is no unless they are sponsored by supps company. 

The problem is there are very little studies done on Bodybuilders and most are done on sprints athletes..size matters ;-)


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## Kafka82 (Mar 23, 2015)

Interesting discussion 

Another comment about the article 
So would you run HCG when doing TRT at about 250 pw if Test?


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## b-boy (Mar 23, 2015)

i have never and will never eat 500grams of fucking protein...LMFAO..
carbs are protein sparing!!! so why do i need that much protein? provide a hormonal enviroment for growth, provide energy for hard training (carbohydrates), protein (amino acids) for repair and growth (this isn't as much as you think), fat for health, hormonal support, vitamin absorbtion, skin and nails, brain development, controlling inflammation).

no need to eat a fuck ton of protein... (thanks George Farah for schooling me on this).


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## Kafka82 (Mar 23, 2015)

Also about the training / Is not too low volume what is being suggested in the article? I think frequency and volume should be adjusted on the individual I guess... But Still 3-4 sets working sets for chest seems a bit too little to me


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## GottaGain (Mar 23, 2015)

b-boy said:


> i have never and will never eat 500grams of fucking protein...LMFAO..
> carbs are protein sparing!!! so why do i need that much protein? provide a hormonal enviroment for growth, provide energy for hard training (carbohydrates), protein (amino acids) for repair and growth (this isn't as much as you think), fat for health, hormonal support, vitamin absorbtion, skin and nails, brain development, controlling inflammation).
> 
> no need to eat a fuck ton of protein... (thanks George Farah for schooling me on this).



What would you use as a general guideline for daily protein intake? 1.5g per lb of bodyweight?


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## b-boy (Mar 24, 2015)

GottaGain said:


> What would you use as a general guideline for daily protein intake? 1.5g per lb of bodyweight?


 offseason I was 1.25x my bodyweight in protein


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## Concreteguy (May 29, 2015)

Well it's been about two months now eating in excess of 400 grams protein per day mostly in shakes. Guess what? At 55 years of age I'm growing better than ever before. Thanks IFBB PRO BIGA for setting me straight on how to fucking eat to grow! "ROFLMAO" lol

BTW: speaking of carbs being protein sparing? I'm sparing the carbs and fat. hahaha..........good thing I'm not an expert.

  CG


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## Magnus82 (May 29, 2015)

Question CG.  Did you keep your caloric intake the same,  if so what macro did you decrease.


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## humpthebobcat (May 29, 2015)

hmm so placebo effect or genetics? lol


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## Concreteguy (May 29, 2015)

humpthebobcat said:


> hmm so placebo effect or genetics? lol



 The forums are full of really smart guys just like ya. Keep on giving out all that free advice man. Could I give you a list of my competitors you could start sending it too?

  CG


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## Concreteguy (May 29, 2015)

Magnus82 said:


> Question CG.  Did you keep your caloric intake the same,  if so what macro did you decrease.



I decreased carbs, kept fats the same and went ape drinking whey and casein. I was and still am adding yogurts to my shakes. I literally cleaned up and increased my body weight. I have never been able to do this going into a show.
 The moral to the story is there is no "one shoe fits all feet". I just can't believe I'm at this stage of my life in this sport and find the diet I need now. Really up setting.

This is what the diet looks like.
1 pack of oats
3 whole eggs
2 scoops whey all in a shake for breakfast


Dinner: Steak
2 potatoes
green salad

everything in between is a shake made of whey or casein. I will mention again that three to four times a day I will add a yougurt to my shakes.

 CG


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## The Grim Repper (May 29, 2015)

I love to eat so hitting 500 for me is a breeze, VERY easy if taking shakes between meals.  Right now I'm between 330 and 400 or so a day, 90% from whole food. which is keeping me on target while I zig zag my carbs.


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## Magnus82 (May 29, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> I decreased carbs, kept fats the same and went ape drinking whey and casein. I was and still am adding yogurts to my shakes. I literally cleaned up and increased my body weight. I have never been able to do this going into a show.
> The moral to the story is there is no "one shoe fits all feet". I just can't believe I'm at this stage of my life in this sport and find the diet I need now. Really up setting.
> 
> This is what the diet looks like.
> ...



Ever mix your shakes with liquid egg whites.  I have been now for 3 years and love it.  Great way to get that extra protein in.  12oz egg whites,  1 whole egg,  
1 1/2 scoops whey,  and 1 banana.


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## Concreteguy (May 29, 2015)

Magnus82 said:


> Ever mix your shakes with liquid egg whites.  I have been now for 3 years and love it.  Great way to get that extra protein in.  12oz egg whites,  1 whole egg,
> 1 1/2 scoops whey,  and 1 banana.



I have read so many times that "drinking them doesn't digest" that I quit doing it. I used to drink them up to a dozen a day. Never bothered my stomach. Just kept reading all this crap about drinking them and then quit. Maybe I should start up again. lol Another great idea gone to the wind because of the local experts advising......

 I get a kick out of folks just running an idea in there mind and then making up minds as if they know the answer with out EVER trying it. lol

CG


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## humpthebobcat (May 29, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> The moral to the story is there is no "one shoe fits all feet".
> 
> CG



so I wonder if it's the placebo effect or genetics LOL


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## Concreteguy (May 29, 2015)

I've trained with the best trainers at PM and am a twenty year vet of this sport placing as high as fifth at the Nats and your pointing out that maybe it's a "placebo effect"?  Great point. Thanks for sharing. Could you maybe go play in another thread?

  CG


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## squatster (May 29, 2015)

It is very easy to gain if you can pack in the protein 
The hard part some times is to afford it


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## Magnus82 (May 29, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> I have read so many times that "drinking them doesn't digest" that I quit doing it. I used to drink them up to a dozen a day. Never bothered my stomach. Just kept reading all this crap about drinking them and then quit. Maybe I should start up again. lol Another great idea gone to the wind because of the local experts advising......
> 
> I get a kick out of folks just running an idea in there mind and then making up minds as if they know the answer with out EVER trying it. lol
> 
> CG



It has been found that raw eggs have an absorption rate of 50% since the protein in not denatured. .  Cartoned egg whites are pasteurized and are just as absorbed as cooked eggs


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## humpthebobcat (May 29, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> I've trained with the best trainers at PM and am a twenty year vet of this sport placing as high as fifth at the Nats and your pointing out that maybe it's a "placebo effect"?  Great point. Thanks for sharing. Could you maybe go play in another thread?
> 
> CG



the placebo is just the power of the mind....I think most successful body builders are pretty interested in the power of the mind........but I'm the idiot, you're right


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## Concreteguy (May 30, 2015)

humpthebobcat said:


> the placebo is just the power of the mind....I think most successful body builders are pretty interested in the power of the mind........but I'm the idiot, you're right



 Your comment on power of the mind is completely arguable. But not very likely. Nothing changed but the diet. Nothing. When the protein went threw the roof my recovery was unbelievable. The first week in a knew something was vary different. My strength has gone up and so has my weight. When you talk about the power of the mind. I believe in staying positive. I believe in a mind muscle connection. I also believe it's possible and has been proven many times over that you can have a placebo effect on many different conditions. Because I have so much experience in exactly this and the duration of the training and response to training. I feel the results fare out way and kind of placebo effect. After all the shit talking about high protein I was concerned I was wasting my time. I wasn't feeling positive about it at all.
 Genetics? This was your second question. Are you saying I have a genetic predisposition to protein and the amount I taking? Maybe. That would make much more sense than the previous guess. But I believe running the numbers up will work for most of the guys that have tried everything else and just never got huge. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

 CG


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## Elvia1023 (May 30, 2015)

Besides the increase in protein have you increased the number of meals you have in total? This may sound stupid but it's not (really). Due to my metabolism I often found if I increase the number of meals I have I get bigger and leaner provided my hormonal support is adequate. These meals have to be fairly clean but can consist of all macronutrients. The regular feeding simply ramps everything up and my body burns everything much more effectively. This is observed when I have 6-7 meals per day... anymore and it would probably go the opposite way due to digestion issues. I can even feel my body getting warmer through the weeks and my gf is often amazed how hot I am even when it's freezing outside 

I am gonna do the same and add in a few more shakes for results and convenience. I am only consuming about 4 whole food meals now so I need to ramp things up again. Truth be told I can't be bothered eating another few meals so shakes it will be. Mine will mainly consist of beef isolate with pineapple or whey isolate with berries. I mix the fruit up in my nutribullet and they taste amazing. The pineapple for when I need more of a boost and around training as I use about 50g worth of carbs from pineapple (I like to add lemon juice too). The berries are very low carbs and I just feel healthier consuming them.

Good thread


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## humpthebobcat (May 30, 2015)

ok ok geeze, I was making sure you weren't just hell bent on proving b-boy wrong for saying he would never eat 500 grams of protein lmao...

he eats what 1.25grams? and you're eating what like 3 grams of protein per pound of body weight??

how can he swear by one and you swear by another, boggles my mind


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## Concreteguy (May 30, 2015)

Elvia1023 said:


> Besides the increase in protein have you increased the number of meals you have in total? This may sound stupid but it's not (really). Due to my metabolism I often found if I increase the number of meals I have I get bigger and leaner provided my hormonal support is adequate. These meals have to be fairly clean but can consist of all macronutrients. The regular feeding simply ramps everything up and my body burns everything much more effectively. This is observed when I have 6-7 meals per day... anymore and it would probably go the opposite way due to digestion issues. I can even feel my body getting warmer through the weeks and my gf is often amazed how hot I am even when it's freezing outside
> 
> I am gonna do the same and add in a few more shakes for results and convenience. I am only consuming about 4 whole food meals now so I need to ramp things up again. Truth be told I can't be bothered eating another few meals so shakes it will be. Mine will mainly consist of beef isolate with pineapple or whey isolate with berries. I mix the fruit up in my nutribullet and they taste amazing. The pineapple for when I need more of a boost and around training as I use about 50g worth of carbs from pineapple (I like to add lemon juice too). The berries are very low carbs and I just feel healthier consuming them.
> 
> Good thread



That's a good question. Yes drinking the shakes added proly three more feedings per day. I'm thinking about adding many different types of protein sources to keep it more diversified to my system. But the number will remain the same.

  CG


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## Concreteguy (May 30, 2015)

humpthebobcat said:


> ok ok geeze, I was making sure you weren't just hell bent on proving b-boy wrong for saying he would never eat 500 grams of protein lmao...
> 
> he eats what 1.25grams? and you're eating what like 3 grams of protein per pound of body weight??
> 
> how can he swear by one and you swear by another, boggles my mind



 I'm sure we are both telling the truth. Have you seen pics of B-Boy as a young teen? I guarantee as a kid he looked better than you will ever look on any amount of drugs, in your entire life. What works for him MAY not come close to working for you or me. 
 And thanks for making sure I wasn't picking on poor little Brad.lol  

Maybe you should get yourself a bike and ride around town yelling
"respect my Authoritaaa" ?  lol hahahahha

 CG


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## cybrsage (May 30, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> He wrote at the end. Make sure and eat 500grams of protein. All steroids do is make you convert protein to muscle. SO THE MORE YOU EAT THE BIGGER YOU WILL GET.



I did not read all four pages of the thread.  I can say, without a doubt, that the more fat and carbs you eat, the bigger you will get - but in a very bad way.

Now, since AAS turns protein into muscle (over simplification, but accurate enough for our purposes), it would stand to reason that the more protein you eat the more muscle you would get.

There is a study about sedentary people and protein - it says a sedentary person cannot process more than 50g of protein in a single meal.  More than that is just wasted.  However, there are no studies at all on how much protein a body builder can process, let alone a body builder taking AAS.  So it is quite possible a body builder on AAS can process over 100g of protein from a single meal.


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## chrisr116 (May 30, 2015)

Hell, all of you guys look fantastic.  I would keep doing whatever the hell you guys have been doing.


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## humpthebobcat (May 31, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> I'm sure we are both telling the truth. Have you seen pics of B-Boy as a young teen? I guarantee as a kid he looked better than you will ever look on any amount of drugs, you entire life. What works for him MAY not come close to working for you or me.
> And thanks for making sure I wasn't picking on poor little Brad.lol
> 
> Maybe you should get yourself a bike and ride around town yelling
> ...



very funny! I would like to issue you a written citation for taking 20 years to learn how to eat to grow haha


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## rAJJIN (May 31, 2015)

Concreteguy said:


> Maybe we could move this towards the most efficient  way to get huge protein values down the trap? Are there any aids we can take to help our kidneys slamming this much protein? Or do you think it's OK?
> I'm not kidding, Johnnies got a new par of shoes baby. I'm going to walk this walk...........
> 
> CG



Johnnie has a new pair of shoes! I like it.
as for health look at 90% of America eating fast food and pigging out on fat and sugars. Many getting so fat they are almost handicap.

I am interested and watching! I think your walking the rite path.

I have heard/read the 40 50 gram limit in a setting.
I seen Phil heath mention recently on video he aims for Ingesting 60
at a time. 

Just like Big Ron Coleman says....
secret ith... I found out what the other guys do. And I do more


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## cybrsage (May 31, 2015)

rAJJIN said:


> I have heard/read the 40 50 gram limit in a setting.



It is a scientific study done on sedentary young and elderly adults.  Unfortunately, no study has been done on body builders to see if the amount is higher - which I highly suspect it is.



> Ingestion of more than 30 g of protein in a single meal does not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3197704/


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## Concreteguy (May 31, 2015)

humpthebobcat said:


> very funny! I would like to issue you a written citation for taking 20 years to learn how to eat to grow haha



lol Fair enough!

  CG


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## Sully (Jun 1, 2015)

cybrsage said:


> There is a study about sedentary people and protein - it says a sedentary person cannot process more than 50g of protein in a single meal.  More than that is just wasted.  However, there are no studies at all on how much protein a body builder can process, let alone a body builder taking AAS.  So it is quite possible a body builder on AAS can process over 100g of protein from a single meal.



Actually, there are studies on bodybuilders about protein intake. There was actually a study to determine if large amounts of protein would increase fat gain in bodybuilders. They had bodybuilders eating 500 grams of protein a day(I'm working from memory on this, so I might be off on the numbers). The study wasn't actually looking at protein synthesis, but the conclusion was that large amounts of protein have no effect on fat gain. Basically confirming that protein, even if it is far in excess of the persons caloric needs, cannot be turned into fat in the body. 

The research had been done on this and it shows that protein is never wasted. If the protein consumed is in excess of the amount needed for muscle building(protein synthesis) the rest is oxidized. Oxidized means burned for energy by the body. It may not be directly used for building muscle, but that's not the same thing as it being wasted or not being digested or whatever bro science superstition is constantly being spouted. It will be used for building muscle, or for keeping you alive, but it will never be passed through as waste without being used for anything. 

I'll dig up the studies in a couple days if I get some time off. 2 jobs and 100 hours a week on a short week doesn't leave much time for searching for obscure scientific studies.


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## cybrsage (Jun 1, 2015)

Very sweet, thank you for that!  My google fu must have been low when I did my search.


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## Cerberus777 (Jun 2, 2015)

If hormones are good, more protein should help, 350 - 400 gr is the most I can use.(I'm 200lbs) If you're digesting it well and grow keep bumping it up.  500 Is 2gr per lb if you're 250.


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## rAJJIN (Jun 2, 2015)

Cerbursus,
you mentioned EAA.
Maybe I am old school and not up to date. I still just Know protein powder.
I know it means essential amminos.... But what product exactly are you using for EAA and can you explain it to me a bit?

I have always been the steroid guy and not the nutrition guy.


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## Magnus82 (Jun 2, 2015)

The 30g /meal is greatly skewed.  The study took the average absorbtion rates of various proteins.  Whey digests at a rate of around 9-10g/hr whereas eggs digest at a little over 1g/hr. They then took the average absorbtion of various proteins which is 5g/hr and took it times the average time it's in the digestive tract which is 6 hours, and you get 30g. I can honestly say I've personally seen no difference in 3-100g protein meals and 6-30g protein meals.


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## humpthebobcat (Jun 2, 2015)

I'll never forget mike katz, I think it was lol...pulling a can of tuna from his pocket and eating it while waiting on his giant burger or giant steak, can't remember which lol in Pumping Iron...right then I knew, eat as much protein as physically possible!  they had to be getting somewhere around 500 grams a day and they looked great


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## rAJJIN (Jun 2, 2015)

humpthebobcat said:


> I'll never forget mike katz, I think it was lol...pulling a can of tuna from his pocket and eating it while waiting on his giant burger or giant steak, can't remember which lol in Pumping Iron...right then I knew, eat as much protein as physically possible!  they had to be getting somewhere around 500 grams a day and they looked great



See that would piss me off if he was my training partner.
Perfect example of "doing a little more then the other guys"
CHEATER!


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## Cerberus777 (Jun 3, 2015)

rAJJIN said:


> Cerbursus,
> you mentioned EAA.
> Maybe I am old school and not up to date. I still just Know protein powder.
> I know it means essential amminos.... But what product exactly are you using for EAA and can you explain it to me a bit?
> ...



I use Prime or TN both good quality.    Some use it in place of protein,  I would only do that intra workouts unless you have kidney issues.   

I prefer to use 10 grams pre meal.  In layman's terms it triggers your muscles to absorb the protein you're about to eat. Via insulin,  glut4. Sorta like a post workout window every meal.  So 10 grams 20min before a 50 gram protein meal gives the protein synthesis you wish an 80 gram meal would. Less is burned as energy .


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