# My Thoughts on HGH...



## Racepicks

Racepicks said:


> Well, I'm certainly not an expert on HGH protocol but, I truly believe that people tend to overthink the process.  My experience has been in the Testing of various HGH Products available on this and other boards.  I think that the dosage of HGH is infinitively more important than timing.  I'd be happy to expand if anyone is interested.



First and foremost, I am not an authority on HGH.  I am not a Chemist or a Micro-Biologist.  I have had the honor of being allowed to test HGH for the good of our community for a few years.  For that, I would like to thank each and every one of you for your support.  I have read posts on this forum and other forums, as well as Podcasts,  by "experts" on HGH and PED's.  In my opinion, most of these "experts" are just repeating all the "Bro-Science" that has been repeated for years.  Whether it is about "Generic vs. Pharma", dosage. timing, even the advantages of IV vs. IM, vs. SQ.  I will try to cover everything.  Keep in mind, you WILL disagree with some of my opinions.  With that being said, I will not allow flaming on this thread (especially by me, if you disagree).  Let's have fun and learn from each other.  Stay tuned for the first subject, *Pharma vs. Generic HGH*


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## squatster

This is getting exciting


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## AnaSCI

Looking forward to this race! Thanks for sharing!


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## ProFIT

Subscribed.


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## psych

racepicks said:


> first and foremost, i am not an authority on hgh.  I am not a chemist or a micro-biologist.  I have had the honor of being allowed to test hgh for the good of our community for a few years.  For that, i would like to thank each and every one of you for your support.  I have read posts on this forum and other forums, as well as podcasts,  by "experts" on hgh and ped's.  *in my opinion, most of these "experts" are just repeating all the "bro-science" that has been repeated for years. * whether it is about "generic vs. Pharma", dosage. Timing, even the advantages of iv vs. Im, vs. Sq.  I will try to cover everything.  Keep in mind, you will disagree with some of my opinions.  With that being said, i will not allow flaming on this thread (especially by me, if you disagree).  Let's have fun and learn from each other.  Stay tuned for the first subject, *pharma vs. Generic hgh*



yes!!!


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## Racepicks

OK, Guys!  Don't expect me to tell you that I'm not an expert on HGH anymore.  When I woke up this morning, I felt something was different.  That's when I realized, I AM AN EXPERT!.......

seriously though, give me a few days to put the "Pharma vs. Generic" post together.  With work and shit, I don't just want to throw up some bullshit.  I would like to present a somewhat thorough dissertation on the differences between the two.  Thanks again for the opportunity!


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## squatster

My hgh is waiting to come out man but I will be patient. 
Its been sitting a while waiting


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## Sandpig

This will be interesting 

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## Racepicks

Hey Sandpig!  We talked on ProMuscle about World Gym in Providence.  I remember Hank, but what was his Partners name (I can see his face)?  I remember his Son Chris, they also started a fitness equipment company, Big Fitness.  What was his name?


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## Racepicks

The Difference Between Pharma HGH and Generic HGH - My View

*PRICE*
The easiest thing for me to say is that there is a BIG difference between Pharma and Generic HGH.  Of course when I refer to Generic HGH, I'm referring to Chinese Generic (although it can include generic HGH produced in other countries, such as Israel, Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, etc.).  Guess what!  There is a big difference between the two.  It is "The Price"!* The cost of Pharma HGH from a Hormonal Clinic can easily cost you over $15,000 per year for a therapeutic dose.  The same therapeutic dose of Chinese generic HGH self administered, would cost under $500.  I am calling a therapeutic dose 1iu. per day.  So the end result is:  Not many can afford the cost of Pharma HGH.  
Winner - Generic

*AVAILABILITY* 
The days of waiting outside of an AIDS Clinic in the hopes of buying Pharma HGH are gone.  Those were the "glory days" of Bodybuilding, I suppose.  At the very least, part of it's history.  Not that HGH cannot be sourced through someone who is prescribed Pharma HGH.  I have a friend who was advised by his 4 year old Son's Doctor to start his Son on HGH Therapy.  He asked me for my advice.  My first thought was, "How do I get my hands on my Friends HGH?".  I know, I know, I still feel like shit for thinking it.  But he was unsure if he wanted to do it.  So I did offer my friend an opportunity to make a few bucks.  No, I never heard from him on that. - Yes, we are still friends.  If you are reading this, I do not have to tell you how easy Generic HGH is to get.  I could end it right here, except that there is another consideration.  There are some European based Sponsors who sell Pharma HGH.  I've serum tested some of these products, Genotropins scored 27.0ng/ml and Humatropes scored 25.7ng/ml.  Good News -That is exactly what I would expect Pharma to test at. Bad News - My IGF-1 levels were under 300ng/ml on 4iu's/day. I could be wrong but, I would expect a product that tested at nearly 30ng/ml would be higher on the IGF-1 score.  I had some conversations with some foreign Sponsors who told me that they thought the European Pharma HGH was real.  They said that it is easily accessible right out of any pharmacy.  I still have my doubts!
Winner - Generic 

Obviously, this discussion is far from complete.  Give me a few days to continue the saga!!  The next few episodes will be much more provocative.  

In the meantime, let the comments roll in!

Thanks again for all your support in my testing efforts.


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## odin

Racepicks said:


> The Difference Between Pharma HGH and Generic HGH - My View
> 
> *PRICE*
> The easiest thing for me to say is that there is a BIG difference between Pharma and Generic HGH.  Of course when I refer to Generic HGH, I'm referring to Chinese Generic (although it can include generic HGH produced in other countries, such as Israel, Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, etc.).  Guess what!  There is a big difference between the two.  It is "The Price"!* The cost of Pharma HGH from a Hormonal Clinic can easily cost you over $15,000 per year for a therapeutic dose.  The same therapeutic dose of Chinese generic HGH self administered, would cost under $500.  I am calling a therapeutic dose 1iu. per day.  So the end result is:  Not many can afford the cost of Pharma HGH.
> Winner - Generic
> 
> *AVAILABILITY*
> The days of waiting outside of an AIDS Clinic in the hopes of buying Pharma HGH are gone.  Those were the "glory days" of Bodybuilding, I suppose.  At the very least, part of it's history.  Not that HGH cannot be sourced through someone who is prescribed Pharma HGH.  I have a friend who was advised by his 4 year old Son's Doctor to start his Son on HGH Therapy.  He asked me for my advice.  My first thought was, "How do I get my hands on my Friends HGH?".  I know, I know, I still feel like shit for thinking it.  But he was unsure if he wanted to do it.  So I did offer my friend an opportunity to make a few bucks.  No, I never heard from him on that. - Yes, we are still friends.  If you are reading this, I do not have to tell you how easy Generic HGH is to get.  I could end it right here, except that there is another consideration.  There are some European based Sponsors who sell Pharma HGH.  I've serum tested some of these products, Genotropins scored 27.0ng/ml and Humatropes scored 25.7ng/ml.  Good News -That is exactly what I would expect Pharma to test at. Bad News - My IGF-1 levels were under 300ng/ml on 4iu's/day. I could be wrong but, I would expect a product that tested at nearly 30ng/ml would be higher on the IGF-1 score.  I had some conversations with some foreign Sponsors who told me that they thought the European Pharma HGH was real.  They said that it is easily accessible right out of any pharmacy.  I still have my doubts!
> Winner - Generic
> 
> Obviously, this discussion is far from complete.  Give me a few days to continue the saga!!  The next few episodes will be much more provocative.
> 
> In the meantime, let the comments roll in!
> 
> Thanks again for all your support in my testing efforts.



Great points! Going to be following this one very closely.


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## Racepicks

Thanks Brother.  Not much meat here, but next episode. "Is Generic As Good As Pharma".  Guaranteed to generate some discussion.


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## RA0513

I'm going to be doing an experiment on my own. I have about 6 weeks worth of generics and 1 kit of pharma which I will be dosing at 2iu for 6 days off 1. I'm thinking about doing a separate log and see if I can notice the difference. Two lots of the generic cost me 300 while I got 1 kit of Pharma for 375. Is it worth doing a log over or just casually give my feedback? I've never ran hgh before so I don't know what to expect out of either 


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## Racepicks

RA0513 said:


> I'm going to be doing an experiment on my own. I have about 6 weeks worth of generics and 1 kit of pharma which I will be dosing at 2iu for 6 days off 1. I'm thinking about doing a separate log and see if I can notice the difference. Two lots of the generic cost me 300 while I got 1 kit of Pharma for 375. Is it worth doing a log over or just casually give my feedback? I've never ran hgh before so I don't know what to expect out of either
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Look, testing can be expensive and time consuming.  When I did all my testing, I had plenty of money and time.  Today I have neither!  

Here's what I would do.

Get an IGF-1 baseline test before you even begin.  That way, you will know what your IGF-1 level is without the benefit of HGH.  I would inject 10iu's of the Pharma IM (delt) and get an HGH Serum performed 2 1/2 to 3 hours later.  After which I would inject 4iu's SubQ every day for 3 weeks and get am IGF-1 performed.  Wait 3 to 4 weeks and repeat with the Generic.  Hit me up if I lost you!


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## Racepicks

PHARMA HGH vs. GENERIC HGH - Is There a Difference

The simple answer is...I'm not sure it is. But I'm also not positive it isn't. 

Let me lay out a few thoughts and see if you can help me out with a definitive answer. 

First of all, why do we use HGH?

Quite simply, after a child reaches puberty, HGH secretion by the Pituitary Glands begins to slow pretty rapidly. Once you reach 30 years old the secretion slows even more.  Once you hit 50 years old it is almost non-existent.  So we inject HGH to replicate the HGH secretion of a pre-pubescent child.  Some of us go over-board, but I'll save that for a later discussion.  The HGH signals the liver to produce IGF-1, which is anabolic to muscle.  According to William Llewellyn, in his best-selling book Anabolics,  "IGF-1, however, also has effects that are also antagonistic to Growth Hormone.  This includes increased lipogenesis (fat retention), increased glucose consumption, and decreased glucogenesis.  The synergistic and antagonistic effects of these two hormones combine to form the character of HGH.  Likewise, they also dictate the effects of somatropin administration, which include the support lipolysis, increased serum glucose levels, and reduced insulin sensitivity.".  The reason I mention all this is because, the way our HGH Testing has evolved, we went from HGH Serum Testing being the best way to judge the difference between HGH brands.  We found flaws in the process, so we switched to IGF-1 Testing as being the "holy grail".  Again, we were not convinced this was the best way.  We have now moved on to HPLC and Immunoassay Testing, and as of now, I don't see anything better in the future.  Now, let me tie this all together: *In none of these Tests have we found Pharma to be any better than any of the top Generic Sponsors on our boards!*

CASE CLOSED?  I don't think so!

I wrote a while back on ProMuscle about a Podcast I heard.  I forgot which Podcast, but one of the participants was Dr. Scott Stevenson, who is one of the most knowledgeable people in our community.  Now, I'm going to paraphrase, because I don't remember exactly what his theory was.  I will post how I understood it, maybe he will post and give his critique:

I remember his theory as citing a study that said, through extensive testing of Pharma HGH it was found that Pharma actually contained broken or incomplete amino chains that are not found in Generic HGH.  The thinking is, "Do these incomplete amino chains act to assist the complete amino chains to "unlock" the receptors to allow the complete chains to bind more efficiently to the muscle receptors."?

Now, I'm not saying that this is the case.  Maybe some enlightened and more intelligent people than myself (which is 95% of the planets population) can jump on here add on to the discussion.

In closing, I'm inclined to believe that the HGH we have available here is every bit as effective as any Pharma.  Of course, I'm not 100% sure that the "Pharma" we have tested is genuine USA Pharma from Walgreens, CVS, etc.  I've heard the Vets on this and every other board claim that the Pharma that was bought from AIDS patients years ago was unbelievably strong.  2 iu's would cripple you for days.  I call absolute bullshit on that.  Anyone making that statement demonstrates conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion on the matter.  By the way, anyone that has a USA Pharma HGH that has a label (minus personal info) and wants to contribute it to our testing, please hit me up!

Be certain, this is not the end of this discussion.  I will return with bigger and better stuff.....Stay tuned!


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## cybrsage

Racepicks said:


> OK, Guys!  Don't expect me to tell you that I'm not an expert on HGH anymore.  When I woke up this morning, I felt something was different.  That's when I realized, I AM AN EXPERT!.......



Admit it, you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...


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## Racepicks

Dosage - What is the most effective Dose? - My View

*Fat Loss and Life Extension*

This is probably the most difficult subject to comment on.  Even at the lowest price for generic HGH, the main problem facing most of us is cost.  Most would like to keep their dosage at 2iu's per day, and even at that, would like to stick to the "every other day" protocol to make a vial last for a week.  Thus, stretching a kit out for 10 weeks.  I believe for the benefits of anti-aging, 2 to 4iu's per day is sufficient.  For fat loss, I believe 2 to 4iu's prior to fasted cardio is the best way to go.  I do not say this because I read it on a forum, or I heard an "expert" preach it.  I post this because it worked for me!

*HGH in conjunction with AAS* 

Coaches I have worked with have suggested 6iu's per day for it's synergistic effects with AAS.  That being said, I have also been told by a coach that HGH should be avoided.  Too risky.  It is fair to say, this coach suggested I buy his peptides instead, so you be the judge!  

*High doses of HGH*

Look, we're all tempted to go high with both HGH and AAS.  I have injected 10iu's per day for 3 months straight.  I did not experience any more benefit than injecting 5iu's per day.  Am I saying it won't work?  Nope, everyone is different.  Possibly, to achieve the true benefit (or side effects) of injecting over 10iu's per day, you need to go 6 months, or a year.  I don't feel the risk is worth the rewards (or health risks).  Let me explain in the next section.

*Hypertrophy vs. Hyperplasia*

Each of us genetically have so many muscle cells.  When we use AAS, we feed (or better yet, push) water and fuel (sugar) into our muscles.  This causes the cells to expand (Hypertrophy).  People with "Good" genetics have more muscle cells.  Hence, larger muscles.

HGH injection results in a phenomenon called Hyperplasia.  This is the actual splitting of muscle cells.  I guess you can say it alters your genetics.  Supposedly, this is achieved only by high doses.  15 to 20iu's per day?  I use a question mark because, I really do not know.  *ATTENTION!* This is something that could also be construed as "Bro-Science", I'll admit it up front!  I just thought it was too important not to mention.  Please take nothing I say here as advice.  We all know.  What we do has inherit risks.  

I have mentioned this in the past, I feel it should be mentioned again.  When we discuss genetics, we are not only speaking about the ability to grow muscle, good muscle insertions, or full muscle bellies.  We are talking about your bodies ability to tolerate these PEDs we are utilizing.  People with a family history of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. should really think hard about what someone tells them is "safe".  Please take every precaution to protect your health, up to, and including abstinence. 

As always, I'll be back with more of MY views.  You may not agree, but post your thoughts.  Or for that matter, questions.


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## odin

Great info Racepicks!


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## squatster

This is getting good
why do some say not to take the growth every day?
I wonder what the optimal time would be to get the sugars into the musle.
Why once I got older I have a hard time keeping water in my muscle bellies- 
Do these have some thing to do with low gh?
Hope I didn't get off the topic


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## K1

squatster said:


> why do some say not to take the growth every day?



This has been my question as of late...Throughout the years I never noticed the 5on2off concept, always just everyday protocols (im, iv, subq)...Even going back as far as the days when you would hear you had to run it a minimum of 4iu everyday for 6 months to see the visible results

I have been off everything for years and now just catching up on reading the consensus seems to be NOT to run gh everyday (of course the obvious of shutting down your natural production the same as using Test)...And a lot of mention of metformin with gh use now?!


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## ProFIT

I love threads like these. Make for great discussions:goodnews:


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## Racepicks

squatster said:


> This is getting good
> why do some say not to take the growth every day?
> I wonder what the optimal time would be to get the sugars into the musle.
> Why once I got older I have a hard time keeping water in my muscle bellies-
> Do these have some thing to do with low gh?
> Hope I didn't get off the topic



I truly believe people will have their own preference on when and how much to inject.  Then they will try to come up with reasons (or studies, or Bro-science, etc.) to back their decision.  I was guilty of the same thing when I began using HGH years ago.  After spending over $400 dollars for 3 kits, I wanted to take the least amount I could get away with to make it last. I settled on 4iu's per day.  As I mentioned previously, my coach at the time was Alex Azarian (RIP), who advised me to raise my dose to 6iu's per day for maximum results.

I was listening to a Podcast recently over on Advices Radio called Blood, Sweat & Gear.  It features Scott McNally, Skip Hill and someone who calls himself S2H (apparently his handle on a number of forums).  It was another of those discussions about timing of HGH injections.  S2H mentioned a number of times that he preferred EOD (every other day) injections.  Aside from his feeling that it would help avoid the potential side effects of HGH, his argument was "I don't know, I just think it just works better for me".  So.....

My opinion is this.  I do not ever remember seeing any package inserts for Pharma HGH advising people to inject EOD.  I have not heard of one instance where a Dr. prescribing HGH to a patient has recommended EOD injections.  So, where do these things come from?  

I usually subscribe to the "Just Get It In Ya" theory.  Whether you are talking about AAS, food, even training.  Just Do IT!  Do you really believe you will get more of a benefit injecting Test E right before training?  (of course, maybe you will if we were talking TNE, but that is a different discussion.)   As far as HGH is concerned, I'm not sure if it is true.  I can be open to the possibility that injecting 2iu's an hour before training and 2iu's an hour after training may yield some benefit.  Adding your 2iu's first thing in the morning pre-cardio, now we may be on to something.   I believe the half-life of HGH is 4 hours.  So, would that make it reasonable to inject 2iu's every 4 hours?  Or is it more realistic to inject the entire 12iu's once per day to mimic the bodies natural pulse?  See where I'm going with this?

At the end of the day, people will choose what they want to believe, then they will find reasons for their decisions!


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## Racepicks

There is much fanfare over MK-677 lately.  I will not say that these are baseless claims.  The goal of injecting MK-677 is to raise IGF-1 levels in the body.  I believe it was a year ago that I volunteered to test MK-677 for a Sponsor over on ProMuscle.  I forgot who the Sponsor was, but I remember I was talking to the Sponsor Rep, Cauthen.  I explained I wanted to raise my IGF-1 level as high as I could using MK-677.  We agreed I would use this protocol:

8:00am - 200mcg. GHRP-6
1:00pm - 200 mcg. GHRP-6
               20mg. CJ-1295 W/DAC
10:00pm - 50mg. MK677

I was always hungry as a bear ALL day, thanks to the GHRP-6.  The lethargy was not an issue because I was injecting the MK-677 before bed. BUT.................This protocol, and I don't remember what my IGF-1 level were after 4 weeks on this protocol (it is posted on ProMuscle, I just do not have the time to look), but I do remember it was NO HIGHER than injecting 4iu's of HGH every day for 4 weeks.  Not what many want to hear, but I'm not sure that these peptides are worth the money or effort.  I trust Cauthen, so I really believe he thought these tests would be awesome.  Look, who knows, maybe I will take the time to test MK677 again.


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## Dusty Ray

Racepicks said:


> There is much fanfare over MK-677 lately.  I will not say that these are baseless claims.  The goal of injecting MK-677 is to raise IGF-1 levels in the body.  I believe it was a year ago that I volunteered to test MK-677 for a Sponsor over on ProMuscle.  I forgot who the Sponsor was, but I remember I was talking to the Sponsor Rep, Cauthen.  I explained I wanted to raise my IGF-1 level as high as I could using MK-677.  We agreed I would use this protocol:
> 
> 8:00am - 200mcg. GHRP-6
> 1:00pm - 200 mcg. GHRP-6
> 20mg. CJ-1295 W/DAC
> 10:00pm - 50mg. MK677
> 
> I was always hungry as a bear ALL day, thanks to the GHRP-6.  The lethargy was not an issue because I was injecting the MK-677 before bed. BUT.................This protocol, and I don't remember what my IGF-1 level were after 4 weeks on this protocol (it is posted on ProMuscle, I just do not have the time to look), but I do remember it was NO HIGHER than injecting 4iu's of HGH every day for 4 weeks.  Not what many want to hear, but I'm not sure that these peptides are worth the money or effort.  I trust Cauthen, so I really believe he thought these tests would be awesome.  Look, who knows, maybe I will take the time to test MK677 again.


You can inject Mk677?I thought it was for oral use only.Very interesting,Thank you.


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## Racepicks

I think a better description would have been to say, I injected  2cc's directly into my mouth using a 3cc syringe, minus the pin of course!


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## AnaSCI

I resized your image.


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## Dusty Ray

Racepicks said:


> I think a better description would have been to say, I injected  2cc's directly into my mouth using a 3cc syringe, minus the pin of course!


Oh okay I spent hours last night trying to figure out injectable MK677,well needless to say oral is the route.Thanks for clearing that up buddy I was dumbfounded big time lol.


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## Racepicks

As hard as it is to swallow, I could never imagine the pain that would result from injecting!


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## buck1973

Racepicks said:


> There is much fanfare over MK-677 lately.  I will not say that these are baseless claims.  The goal of injecting MK-677 is to raise IGF-1 levels in the body.  I believe it was a year ago that I volunteered to test MK-677 for a Sponsor over on ProMuscle.  I forgot who the Sponsor was, but I remember I was talking to the Sponsor Rep, Cauthen.  I explained I wanted to raise my IGF-1 level as high as I could using MK-677.  We agreed I would use this protocol:
> 
> 8:00am - 200mcg. GHRP-6
> 1:00pm - 200 mcg. GHRP-6
> 20mg. CJ-1295 W/DAC
> 10:00pm - 50mg. MK677
> 
> I was always hungry as a bear ALL day, thanks to the GHRP-6.  The lethargy was not an issue because I was injecting the MK-677 before bed. BUT.................This protocol, and I don't remember what my IGF-1 level were after 4 weeks on this protocol (it is posted on ProMuscle, I just do not have the time to look), but I do remember it was NO HIGHER than injecting 4iu's of HGH every day for 4 weeks.  Not what many want to hear, but I'm not sure that these peptides are worth the money or effort.  I trust Cauthen, so I really believe he thought these tests would be awesome.  Look, who knows, maybe I will take the time to test MK677 again.




The Peps are certainly another way to raise IGF-1 levels. at the time of yr tests the 4IU P/d ya did for comparison got ya a higher score then the peptide cocktail combination. 
 I did a test recently werre I added  the Peps  along with the HGH and scores jumped again.
So they are def a option to elevating IGF-1 Levels.
 I believe they come with more sides and def more hassles, The HGH i do 1 time P/d if I recall  the  peps are many times and a few dif things.  Plus the MK- 677 has evolved into a better tasting product the last time out for me.
 It has been described  back than by Mr. RP himself as Tastes worse than Diesel Fuel Buck how do ya not spit that shit?


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## IRONFIST

there is great info in this thread! thanks for taking the time to share this RP!


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## Racepicks

buck1973 said:


> The Peps are certainly another way to raise IGF-1 levels. at the time of yr tests the 4IU P/d ya did for comparison got ya a higher score then the peptide cocktail combination.
> I did a test recently werre I added  the Peps  along with the HGH and scores jumped again.
> So they are def a option to elevating IGF-1 Levels.
> I believe they come with more sides and def more hassles, The HGH i do 1 time P/d if I recall  the  peps are many times and a few dif things.  Plus the MK- 677 has evolved into a better tasting product the last time out for me.
> It has been described  back than by Mr. RP himself as Tastes worse than Diesel Fuel Buck how do ya not spit that shit?



Yeah Buck!  I wonder if the MK with the HGH somehow has a synergistic effect when used together.  I would like to explore that possibility further


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## buck1973

Us Old Dudes  seem like we no longer convert like we once use to. so the  100 mg/mL per IU of HGH rule for us is not in the picture.
 I pulled these tests I did  a little while ago and it does improve IGF-1 scores substantially.
 Now this is coming from a   guy that a good score on HGH is  300.
 run it through one of these younger Livers and scores will have to b higher.





9/30/16 - 293ng/mL 56 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
10/8/16 - 308ng/mL 64 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
10/14/16 - 286ng/mL 72 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 P/D 1 week
10/21/16 - 260ng/mL 79 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 2 weeks
10/29/16 - 352ng/mL 87 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
11/4/16 - 363ng/mL 94 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.


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## Racepicks

I want to invite anyone who has a contrary opinion to anything I have posted to go ahead and question, and counter with opposing viewpoints.  I am posting "My Thoughts", which may be completely wrong.  Don't think I am posting because I know what the hell I'm talking about!!  I have invited Scott Stevenson (Homonunculus) to come by and rip into me if I'm wrong.  If you are not familiar with Scott, you have been living under a rock!  He is one of the most respected people in our community (google FORTITUDE TRAINING).  He is a wealth of knowledge and can only contribute to the discussion.  I also see IFBB Pro b-boy in here.  I may have unintentionally used his "My Thoughts"!  Sorry Brad.  He is also one of the most knowledgeable, and willing to share that knowledge with us all.  Come in b-boy, I know you want to comment!


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## Dusty Ray

Racepicks said:


> I want to invite anyone who has a contrary opinion to anything I have posted to go ahead and question, and counter with opposing viewpoints.  I am posting "My Thoughts", which may be completely wrong.  Don't think I am posting because I know what the hell I'm talking about!!  I have invited Scott Stevenson (Homonunculus) to come by and rip into me if I'm wrong.  If you are not familiar with Scott, you have been living under a rock!  He is one of the most respected people in our community (google FORTITUDE TRAINING).  He is a wealth of knowledge and can only contribute to the discussion.  I also see IFBB Pro b-boy in here.  I may have unintentionally used his "My Thoughts"!  Sorry Brad.  He is also one of the most knowledgeable, and willing to share that knowledge with us all.  Come in b-boy, I know you want to comment!


I don't know a lot about hgh just a lot of basics and her bro science.This thread gives everyone a chance to really learn about hgh.Yes I started running hgh recently and this thread has gave me a ton of insight.Great thread and please keep it going strong.


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## muj

I used to think hgh was the holy grail or the "secret" but after my experience with it which have all been on pharma and as high as 10 iu ed and after talking to a few knowledgeable people I'm really not so sure anymore if it is all that at least as far as growth/gains are concerned. I got good effects from it don't get me wrong, I was lean on it, recovery was enhanced etc but I expected to "blow up" more on it. Got a shit load of water retention though. I agree with racepicks in terms of that I didn't get much more from 10 iu than what I did with 5. I really don't think I will be running more than 6 iu again I think that is plenty for most people here.  

There really is not much data or literature out there supporting it's effects on anabolism. I know that it's hard to find studies which are bodybuilding focused but still. I can post some stuff from a couple of very knowledgeable guys in the medical industry who know a lot about bodybuilding too regarding hgh if anyone is interested. They're not bad reads. Even if I don't completely agree with everything on them


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## ProFIT

I have used gh many times over the years. My first experience with it .. The first time I used 4ius a month for 8 months (Leo's blue tops). At about month 5-6 I saw changes that almost seemed like they came on over night?? I had tons of energy while using it, after going through the wrist and arm numbness the first month or two. I to though it was the holy grail .. I was eating what I wanted and as long as I kept training high nothing but positive seemed to stick.:muscles:

Ran out at around 8 months. Quick rebound effect because my diet was far from on point for all those months. But still looked pretty good.:sSig_DOH:

Couldn't afford any for a year or two after that. But then and up to now gh has really dropped in price so most of us can afford to run it on and off throughout the year. But I will say that it has never worked for me the way it did that first time, doesn't matter what my diet and training look like, or brand I've used or whether it was pharm or ugl.:sAng_explosive:


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## Racepicks

ProFIT said:


> I have used gh many times over the years. My first experience with it .. The first time I used 4ius a month for 8 months (Leo's blue tops). At about month 5-6 I saw changes that almost seemed like they came on over night?? I had tons of energy while using it, after going through the wrist and arm numbness the first month or two. I to though it was the holy grail .. I was eating what I wanted and as long as I kept training high nothing but positive seemed to stick.:muscles:
> 
> Ran out at around 8 months. Quick rebound effect because my diet was far from on point for all those months. But still looked pretty good.:sSig_DOH:
> 
> Couldn't afford any for a year or two after that. But then and up to now gh has really dropped in price so most of us can afford to run it on and off throughout the year. But I will say that it has never worked for me the way it did that first time, doesn't matter what my diet and training look like, or brand I've used or whether it was pharm or ugl.:sAng_explosive:



LOL, I remember my first run on HGH was with TP's Riptropin.  I never experienced the same results since.  I never worked out so intensely and followed a strict diet, and performed daily fasted cardio either, so.........

Another thought

HGH is the most over-rated PED EVER!  If I hear one more person say they can tell it is working because their fingernails are growing super fast, they are experiencing a deeper sleep, or their carpal tunnel is so bad they can barely type, I'm gonna...well, you get it!

If HGH is released in Pre-pubescent kids in miniscule amounts, and they grow, why with us injecting 200 times that amount and we cannot be HUGE???  Huh????  Why does it take months for us to begin to notice ANY benefits, if any?  We should be seeing that proverbial "3-D Effect" almost immediately!

Another thing....If you have a super fast metabolism, you can eat what you want and be lean, HGH or not.  If you are a fat fuck, inject 10iu's of HGH every day while sitting on the couch eating ice cream watching Dog the Bounty Hunter reruns, then after 6 months. hit me up and tell me how lean you are!

Watch the Juan Morel video on YouTube where he is eating 20,000 calories a day!!!  
    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmj7HDHSe10







The reason he can get away with that is because he followed GH-15's protocol of injecting 15iu's/Day and eating pineapple wedges....Get the fuck out!!!  He can do it because his metabolism is super human!  I can't even imagine eating 20,000 calories in a day without puking!!!

I'm not saying HGH is not good, or not worth the time, money and effort.  Far from it.  But I too have questions I would like to have an answer to:

1)  Does HGH use in higher doses result in hyperplasia?

2) Does HGH have any benefit to strength or Hypertrophy? 

3) Are their any "Real" dangerous side-effects with reasonable doses of HGH?

In his book, "Bases Loaded", Kirk Radomski said that HGH has no effect on strength.  He sold HGH to a bunch of New York Mets baseball players back in the early 2000's.  He said the major benefit of HGH was recovery from injury.  In our world, that would translate to recovery.  So....you could potentially workout more intensely, more often, which to me means more gains!!!

I hope this get's y'all thinking and Y'all come back with your own thoughts!  We all learn from each other!


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## muj

Racepicks said:


> LOL, I remember my first run on HGH was with TP's Riptropin.  I never experienced the same results since.  I never worked out so intensely and followed a strict diet, and performed daily fasted cardio either, so.........
> 
> Another thought
> 
> HGH is the most over-rated PED EVER!  If I hear one more person say they can tell it is working because their fingernails are growing super fast, they are experiencing a deeper sleep, or their carpal tunnel is so bad they can barely type, I'm gonna...well, you get it!
> 
> If HGH is released in Pre-pubescent kids in miniscule amounts, and they grow, why with us injecting 200 times that amount and we cannot be HUGE???  Huh????  Why does it take months for us to begin to notice ANY benefits, if any?  We should be seeing that proverbial "3-D Effect" almost immediately!
> 
> Another thing....If you have a super fast metabolism, you can eat what you want and be lean, HGH or not.  If you are a fat fuck, inject 10iu's of HGH every day while sitting on the couch eating ice cream watching Dog the Bounty Hunter reruns, then after 6 months. hit me up and tell me how lean you are!
> 
> Watch the Juan Morel video on YouTube where he is eating 20,000 calories a day!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmj7HDHSe10
> 
> The reason he can get away with that is because he followed GH-15's protocol of injecting 15iu's/Day and eating pineapple wedges....Get the fuck out!!!  He can do it because his metabolism is super human!  I can't even imagine eating 20,000 calories in a day without puking!!!
> 
> I'm not saying HGH is not good, or not worth the time, money and effort.  Far from it.  But I too have questions I would like to have an answer to:
> 
> 1)  Does HGH use in higher doses result in hyperplasia?
> 
> 2) Does HGH have any benefit to strength or Hypertrophy?
> 
> 3) Are their any "Real" dangerous side-effects with reasonable doses of HGH?
> 
> In his book, "Bases Loaded", Kirk Radomski said that HGH has no effect on strength.  He sold HGH to a bunch of New York Mets baseball players back in the early 2000's.  He said the major benefit of HGH was recovery from injury.  *In our world, that would translate to recovery.  So....you could potentially workout more intensely, more often, which to me means more gains!!!*
> 
> I hope this get's y'all thinking and Y'all come back with your own thoughts!  We all learn from each other!



This is it's main benefit in my opinion, and this is exactly why I don't think it needs to be run more than 6 iu either. I think a lot of people overate it too because of the water retention it can bring in higher doses too. I think a lot of people struggle to differentiate in their mind water gain vs muscle gain. They feel bigger, the extra water gives them more leverage therefore a bit more strength and they immediately think wow hgh is blowing me up


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## psych

this is great


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## thethinker

Quick thought on MK use.

Endogenous GH production will vary in each individual. Some people don't have naturally high production of IGF, maybe that's why your scores were lower than you expected ? 

I'll copy my thoughts on MK and it's effects from a thread I made on pro muscle. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## thethinker

I've used MK pretty consistently for 18+ months. 

Recovery? Great
Sleep? Amazing
Hunger? Consistent (althought it tapers)

Not much in terms of lipolysis though (although I haven't actively tried to get leaner, but it is one of GH's upsides). I think theres a difference in the 20 vs 22 kilodalton GH; endogenous v.s exogenous. I also think what receptor each person's body is susceptible to (Scott Stevenson has a video series on this that was posted earlier on this board) also plays a role. I think fatloss might be better with exogenous, and maybe it's just my experience.

To add to this, I've been running 3-4 ius of GH for probably 10+ weeks, and noticed more fat loss than from MK. 

I personally don't think a dose higher than 4iu is a good idea for those starting off with GH. Grow into your doses in my opinion. Your first year of GH use shouldn't warrant 8 ius of ED use. And it makes very little sense financially too. 

Consistency > Quantity. You also need to be aware of certain genetic predispositions, especially diabetes in your genetic history. Most people are concerned with cancer due to GH being a direct function of various growth factors. If we look at a large data set of bodybuilders, we have not really heard many getting cancer. Diabetes from GH abuse/ genetic predisposition combined? Absolutely. There's quite a few pros who are diabetic due to GH abuse.

FYI, MK raised my resting glucose far higher than GH did. 90+ on MK, low 70s on 4iu of GH. 

Sorry for the disorganized post, these are just my thoughts. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Racepicks

thethinker said:


> I've used MK pretty consistently for 18+ months.
> 
> Recovery? Great
> Sleep? Amazing
> Hunger? Consistent (althought it tapers)
> 
> Not much in terms of lipolysis though (although I haven't actively tried to get leaner, but it is one of GH's upsides). I think theres a difference in the 20 vs 22 kilodalton GH; endogenous v.s exogenous. I also think what receptor each person's body is susceptible to (Scott Stevenson has a video series on this that was posted earlier on this board) also plays a role. I think fatloss might be better with exogenous, and maybe it's just my experience.
> 
> To add to this, I've been running 3-4 ius of GH for probably 10+ weeks, and noticed more fat loss than from MK.
> 
> I personally don't think a dose higher than 4iu is a good idea for those starting off with GH. Grow into your doses in my opinion. Your first year of GH use shouldn't warrant 8 ius of ED use. And it makes very little sense financially too.
> 
> Consistency > Quantity. You also need to be aware of certain genetic predispositions, especially diabetes in your genetic history. Most people are concerned with cancer due to GH being a direct function of various growth factors. If we look at a large data set of bodybuilders, we have not really heard many getting cancer. Diabetes from GH abuse/ genetic predisposition combined? Absolutely. There's quite a few pros who are diabetic due to GH abuse.
> 
> FYI, MK raised my resting glucose far higher than GH did. 90+ on MK, low 70s on 4iu of GH.
> 
> Sorry for the disorganized post, these are just my thoughts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



Great Info, thethinker.  I did contact Scott Stevenson, who said he will hop on at some point to check out the thread.  I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences using HGH, and MK677 also, for that matter.


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## Racepicks

Back by popular demand....My thoughts on HGH - What is Bullshit!!!

1)  Keep HGH at room temperature (or refrigerated) because heat will degrade HGH very quickly. - - - - - - - Bullshit (I think)

2)  Do not freeze HGH - - - - - Bullshit (I think)

3)  Do not refrigerate HGH then store at room temperature. - - - - Bullshit (I think) 

How can we prove or disprove these Bro-science, often repeated lines?

How about I send 4 vials to the Lab.

Vial #1- Treat it like a newborn baby!  Very gently.  Stored in a cool dry place.

Vial #2 - Leave in the sun in South Florida for the afternoon, after which we continue to leave outside for 24 hours.

Vial #3 - Store in freezer for 24 hours before sending to Lab.

Vial #4 - Store in refrigerator for 24 hours before sending to Lab.

These are all from the same kit.  stored in a cool dry place.

We can do this, if the members are interested.

Let's see if all these things we have been hearing are actually true, or if all the parrots who preach what others have been saying for years is a fact!


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## muj

Here are some interesting reads posted by an aussie ifbb pro done by some very knowledgeable people. Now you may not agree with everything that's stated (I don't) but they are good reads none the less and very well referenced. Would be good for Scott Stevenson or anyone with the knowledge for that matter to address them or rebuttal them. I'll have to post these separately so apologies if it looks like I'm spamming the thread but they're longish reads.  

One of the most comprehensive arguments AGAINST using HGH and Bodybuilding thanks to Bradley Clarke.

Respect to Bradley for using a writing style that allows your average gym rat to understand too.

Brads qualifications include:
Master of Human Factors Engineering and Health Science
DipAppSci;AdvDipEnv;AdvDipBus;GradCertForensInv;MESH;MA; MSIA;MHFESA
Scientific Investigator and Performance Chemist
5thprinciple.info

What’s wrong with Growth Hormone?
Today I am going to explain why I think growth hormone may well represent everything that I think is wrong with bodybuilding today. 
It would be fair to say that the physiques of the 1970s had better symmetry than many of today’s larger frames and might have been easier to achieve for a couple of reasons. It appears to me that as time has gone on from the 1990s, midsection thickness has become the mainstay of today’s shape. This may be, in most part, due to growth hormone supplementation.

I am not talking about growth hormone secretion within the athletes own body but the supraphysiological use of pharmaceutical grade material which is targeting every tissue in the body but skeletal muscle. This means that rather than having a 28 inch waist like Flex Wheeler did, some body builders are on stage with what easily appear to 40 inch waists. [1] A few pros have managed to rein it in but many have not.

We must begin with some overarching comments in that growth hormone is a controlled poison for which both Customs and the various state police forces take umbrage at the importation, possession and use. Because of the high desirability of growth hormone, the chance of purchasing fake material in plain vials or counterfeit labelled materials in vials, ampules and boxes is also high. Coupled with the fact that growth hormone is expensive, grows tissue other than skeletal muscle thus thickens your waist means that you need to significantly grow your upper body to increase the appearance of clavicle width. This might add years you your journey.

So what does growth hormone do and at what dose? I’m happy to be wrong but don’t argue with me brining anecdote. What I am about to report is peer reviewed studies controlled for variables and the compounds used were real and known. I might also say that all of these research papers are written by people smarter than me and some of the papers have more than 10 authors who are all smarter than me.

Firstly, growth hormone is not antiaging. That’s become a massive scam and to be blunt, growth hormone is both disease promoting and pro-aging. Growth hormone promotes proliferation and mitosis of various tissues including cancer lines. It upregulates cell turnover which in effect is like photocopying copies of photocopies. Rather than cells spending more time in rest and repair phase of the cell cycle, they are quickly pushed through the cycle proliferating errors.
Growth hormone increases circulating IGF-1 which in most populations is not desirable. While IGF-1 is a potent anabolic and the only means by which growth hormone has any influence over skeletal muscle, oestrogen rather has the effect of increasing IGF-1 in contracting muscle. That is where it is desirable, not in lung and brain tissue. In fact, mice with diminished capacity to produce and receive growth hormone live 30 to 70% longer than their full GH cousins. [2-7]
Growth hormone increases insulin resistance which may have long lasting effects beyond the gym and into middle life. [8-10] While normal growth hormone levels are desirable to maintain generalised health, the reduction in insulin sensitivity brought about by high levels of growth hormone needs to be considered in order to reduce the likelihood of accreting visceral body fat after administration has ceased. The effectiveness of co-administrated insulin is affected as is the uptake of amino acids which use the insulin system for cellular transport. This is also disease promoting including fatty liver disease, heart disease, tissue degradation and sexual health. [11-14]
Growth hormone administration increases the size of smooth muscle including the viscera and vascular system. This is one of my main contentions, that thicker midsections mean that greater upper body volume is required to maintain symmetry. There is not a lot of research into high dose growth hormone administration on smooth muscle but we can start with the symptoms of acromegaly (excess GH production and secretion). In smooth muscle tissue such as the heart in which constant exposure to high levels of growth hormone occurs, a heart may weigh as much as 1000g. [15] In normal persons a large heart may be 300g. Liver cells are a target tissue for growth hormone as is cells of the stomach and upper gastrointestinal tract as well as bone tissue such as feet, hands and jaw. [16,17]

One beneficial targets for growth hormone is fibroblasts which build connective tissue such as tendons and cartilage. I have no issue there although fibroblast growth factor and procollagen 1 are better growth factors in that regard. 
Moreover, growth hormone administration has been associated with Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease from human sources as recent as 20 years ago. [18-21] There is no evidence that black market hGH has not come from cadavers.

Now there is always a trade-off between health and performance. The consumption of milk protein is associated with breast cancer and a diet high in leucine is a risk factor for melanoma. The benefit is growth of skeletal muscle so the risk to benefit ratio is balanced toward using the supplements. So we would want growth hormone to build muscle in order to offset the negative effects, right?

Let’s look at a range of studies in athletes and normal subjects using both growth hormone in isolation and with steroids. I have put an approximate value of each program based on period of trial and volume used, at $10 per IU.
A study of 16 untrained men, aged 18 to 28 years, administered growth hormone at 0.56 IU/kg/week (say 6.4iu per day at 80kg) or placebo over 12 weeks of heavy resistance training. [22] After 12 weeks there was a more pronounced increase in free fatty mass and total body water in the growth hormone group compared to placebo, but there was no difference in muscle strength or limb circumference. The quadriceps muscle protein synthesis rate showed no difference between the groups. $5376
Seven trained weight-lifters with a mean age of 23 years were administered 0.56 IU/kg/week (same as the previous trial) during 14 days of heavy training. There was no increase in fractional rate of muscle protein synthesis and no decrease in whole body protein breakdown after 2 weeks. [23] $896
In a study which used 22 male power athletes, aged 18 to 48, growth hormone was administered at 0.63 IU/kg/week (say 7.2iu for 80kg) or placebo during six weeks exercise. The researchers found no difference in maximal voluntary strength of biceps or quadriceps muscles. There was no change in body weight or body fat decrease between the groups. [24] $3024

In a study looking at elderly men over 14 weeks of initial progressive resistance training, followed by 0.28 IU/kg/week (say 3.2iu) of growth hormone or placebo, administered over 10 weeks. Biopsy of the vastus lateralis muscles was performed at baseline and after 14 and 24 weeks. There was no change in muscle strength, morphology or muscle GH/IGF-I mRNA expression between the growth hormone and placebo groups. [25] $2240

In one study of male sprinters (63) which combined 250mg of testosterone per week with 6iu of growth hormone per day (funded by WADA), sprint capacity increased however other parameters such as plyometric strength did not. Further, the increase in lean mass associated with growth hormone was attributed to water retention. Increased capacity to sprint decreased to baseline after a six week wash out period. [26] $2520 (GH alone)

In a 28 day study of 30 young men and women, receiving 16iu per day at the highest dose, found no improvement in power output or oxygen uptake.[27] $4480 for the highest dosed group.
In a study of seven young men receiving 7.5iu growth hormone per day or placebo, over 4 days found that there was a greater mobilisation of fat stores but no greater oxidation during exercise. [28] $300

In another study looking at 31 older men, growth hormone administration at 1.8iu per day over 12 weeks ($1512) found no change in quadriceps power or muscle fibre number. What the study did show however is that in the placebo group the fibre type 2a moved toward 2x characteristics where in the growth hormone group 2x moved toward type 2a characteristics. [29]

In a study which looked at endogenous hormone levels in trained athletes, neither growth hormone nor testosterone secretion increase led to greater hypertrophy or strength. While this was not a study on supraphysiological doses, it does add an interesting dimension to the argument. [30]

I conclude by saying that the pro-aging effects of growth hormone combined with increases in tissue other than skeletal muscle are not worth the investment even if you consider the beneficial albeit transient results seen in the WADA funded study. The health concerns and increased risk of side effects seen in the Berggren et al study at doses greater than 16iu per day (at say the 28 days) do not correlate with any potential gains even accounting for the addition of other anabolic augmentation usually undertaken by bodybuilders. That study saw an investment of $4480 over 28 days which could be equivalent to an additional dietary intake of 8kg of steak per day if the investment was redirected. Red meat is anabolic in its own right (and apparently manly). [31-34]

1 Krasniewicz, L., & Blitz, M. (2006). Arnold Schwarzenegger: a biography. Greenwood Publishing Group. 
2 Vance, M. L. (2003). Can growth hormone prevent aging?. New England Journal of Medicine, 348(9), 779-780.
3 Cao, H., Wang, G., Meng, L., Shen, H., Feng, Z., Liu, Q., & Du, J. (2012). Association between circulating levels of IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 and lung cancer risk: a meta-analysis. PloS one, 7(11), e49884.
4 Bartke, A., Brown-Borg, H. M., Bode, A. M., Carlson, J., Hunter, W. S., & Bronson, R. T. (1998). Does growth hormone prevent or accelerate aging?. Experimental gerontology, 33(7), 675-687.
5 Bartke, A. (2005). Minireview: role of the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor system in mammalian aging. Endocrinology, 146(9), 3718-3723.
6 Flurkey, K., Papaconstantinou, J., Miller, R. A., & Harrison, D. E. (2001). Lifespan extension and delayed immune and collagen aging in mutant mice with defects in growth hormone production. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 98(12), 6736-6741.
7 Flurkey, K., Papaconstantinou, J., Miller, R. A., & Harrison, D. E. (2001). Lifespan extension and delayed immune and collagen aging in mutant mice with defects in growth hormone production. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 98(12), 6736-6741.
8 Guevara-Aguirre, J., Balasubramanian, P., Guevara-Aguirre, M., Wei, M., Madia, F., Cheng, C. W., ... & de Cabo, R. (2011). Growth hormone receptor deficiency is associated with a major reduction in pro-aging signaling, cancer, and diabetes in humans. Science translational medicine, 3(70), 70ra13-70ra13.
9 Rizza, R. A., Mandarino, L. J., & Gerich, J. E. (1982). Effects of growth hormone on insulin action in man: mechanisms of insulin resistance, impaired suppression of glucose production, and impaired stimulation of glucose utilization. Diabetes, 31(8), 663-669.
10 Carroll, P. V., Christ the members of Growth Hormone Research Society Scientific Committee, E. R., Bengtsson, B. A., Carlsson, L., Christiansen, J. S., Clemmons, D., ... & Sonksen, P. H. (1998). Growth hormone deficiency in adulthood and the effects of growth hormone replacement: a review. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 83(2), 382-395.
11 Marchesini, G., Brizi, M., Morselli-Labate, A. M., Bianchi, G., Bugianesi, E., McCullough, A. J., ... & Melchionda, N. (1999). Association of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease with insulin resistance. The American journal of medicine, 107(5), 450-455.
12 Reaven, G. M. (1988). Role of insulin resistance in human disease. Diabetes, 37(12), 1595-1607.
13 Ginsberg, H. N. (2000). Insulin resistance and cardiovascular disease. The Journal of clinical investigation, 106(4), 453-458.
14 Bansal, T. C., Guay, A. T., Jacobson, J., Woods, B. O., & Nesto, R. W. (2005). ORIGINAL RESEARCH—ENDOCRINOLOGY: Incidence of Metabolic Syndrome and Insulin Resistance in a Population with Organic Erectile Dysfunction. The journal of sexual medicine, 2(1), 96-103.
15 Colao, A., Marzullo, P., Di Somma, C., & Lombardi, G. (2001). Growth hormone and the heart. Clinical endocrinology, 54(2), 137-154.
16 Isaksson, O. G. P., Eden, S., & Jansson, J. (1985). Mode of action of pituitary growth hormone on target cells. Annual review of physiology, 47(1), 483-499.
17 Chang, P. J., Nino-Murcia, M., & Kosek, J. (1990). Polypoid Menetrier's disease associated with acromegaly. Gastrointestinal radiology, 15(1), 61-63.
18 Ehrnborg, C., Bengtsson, B. Å., & Rosén, T. (2000). Growth hormone abuse. Best Practice & Research Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 14(1), 71-77.
19 Collinge, J., Palmer, M. S., & Dryden, A. J. (1991). Genetic predisposition to iatrogenic Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. The Lancet, 337(8755), 1441-1442.
20 Goodbrand, I. A., Ironside, J. W., Nicolson, D., & Bell, J. E. (1995). Prion protein accumulation in the spinal cords of patients with sporadic and growth hormone associated Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Neuroscience letters, 183(1), 127-130.
21 Brandel, J. P., Preece, M., Brown, P., Croes, E., Laplanche, J. L., Agid, Y., ... & Alpérovitch, A. (2003). Distribution of codon 129 genotype in human growth hormone-treated CJD patients in France and the UK. The Lancet, 362(9378), 128-130.
22 Yarasheski KE, Campbell JA, Smith K et al. (1992) Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth in young men. American Journal of Physiology 1992; 262: E261±E267.
23 Yarasheski KE, Zachweija JJ, Angelopoulos TJ et al. (1993) Short-term growth hormone treatment does not increase muscle protein synthesis in experienced weight lifters. Journal of Applied Physiology 1993; 74: 3073±3076.
24 Deyssig R, Frisch H, Blum WF et al. (1993) Effect of growth hormone treatment on hormonal parameters, body composition and strength in athletes. Acta Endocrinologica (Copenhagen) 1993; 128: 313±318.
25 Taaffe DR, Jin IH, Vu TH et al. (1996) Lack of effect of recombinant human growth hormone (GH) on muscle morphology and GH-insulin-like growth factor expression in resistance-trained elderly men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1996; 81: 421±425.
26 Meinhardt, U., Nelson, A. E., Hansen, J. L., Birzniece, V., Clifford, D., Leung, K. C., ... & Ho, K. K. (2010). The Effects of Growth Hormone on Body Composition and Physical Performance in Recreational AthletesA Randomized Trial. Annals of internal medicine, 152(9), 568-577.
27 Berggren, A., Ehrnborg, C., Rosén, T., Ellegård, L., Bengtsson, B. A., & Caidahl, K. (2005). Short-term administration of supraphysiological recombinant human growth hormone (GH) does not increase maximum endurance exercise capacity in healthy, active young men and women with normal GH-insulin-like growth factor I axes. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 90(6), 3268-3273.
28 Hansen, M., Morthorst, R., Larsson, B., Dall, R., Flyvbjerg, A., Rasmussen, M. H., ... & Lange, K. H. W. (2005). No effect of growth hormone administration on substrate oxidation during exercise in young, lean men. The Journal of physiology, 567(3), 1035-1045.
29 Lange, K. H. W., Andersen, J. L., Beyer, N., Isaksson, F., Larsson, B., Rasmussen, M. H., ... & Kjær, M. (2002). GH administration changes myosin heavy chain isoforms in skeletal muscle but does not augment muscle strength or hypertrophy, either alone or combined with resistance exercise training in healthy elderly men. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 87(2), 513-523. 
30 West, D. W., Burd, N. A., Tang, J. E., Moore, D. R., Staples, A. W., Holwerda, A. M., ... & Phillips, S. M. (2010). Elevations in ostensibly anabolic hormones with resistance exercise enhance neither training-induced muscle hypertrophy nor strength of the elbow flexors. Journal of Applied Physiology, 108(1), 60-67.
31 Daly, R. M., O'Connell, S. L., Mundell, N. L., Grimes, C. A., Dunstan, D. W., & Nowson, C. A. (2014). Protein-enriched diet, with the use of lean red meat, combined with progressive resistance training enhances lean tissue mass and muscle strength and reduces circulating IL-6 concentrations in elderly women: a cluster randomized controlled trial. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 99(4), 899-910.
32 Waters, D. L., Baumgartner, R. N., Garry, P. J., & Vellas, B. (2010). Advantages of dietary, exercise-related, and therapeutic interventions to prevent and treat sarcopenia in adult patients: an update. Clin Interv Aging, 5, 259-270.
33 McNeill, S. H. (2014). Inclusion of red meat in healthful dietary patterns. Meat science, 98(3), 452-460.
34 Sobal, J. (2005). Men, meat, and marriage: Models of masculinity. Food and Foodways, 13(1-2), 135-158.


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## muj

Furions Qualifications
MPharm MPS ND BScHlthSci (Comp Med & Nutr)

Furions Summary from James Dries

HGH is a peptide hormone produced and secreted in the brain and is expressed in 4 similar forms, acting on all tissues in the body to promote tissue repair. In response to exercise, one particular type is primarily attributed to enhancing muscle growth (it is this specific type that synthetic forms attempt to replicate). HGH produced in the brain stimulates the release of IGF-1 from the liver, which plays a significant role in signalling muscle growth. When produced naturally, both hormones may work by themselves, or together, amplifying the effects of each other. For this reason, people mistakenly believe that administering synthetic versions of HGH and IGF-1 will promote muscle growth.

The way in which HGH is produced in laboratories leads to a slightly different shape and stability of the synthetic HGH molecule. Therefore, its ability to communicate with muscle cells and signal muscle growth is altered (remember the lock and key analogy). Even if measures are taken to make the purest form of HGH, not all of the product will be effective in its intended role due to manufacturing constraints.
In relation to Brads post, this would make sense as synthetic HGH may be very effective at signalling heart and gut growth, but much less effective in enhancing muscle growth due to its reduced ability to signal IGF-1 release within muscles (less compatible). A lesser quality synthetic HGH will most likely compound this problem. As Brad also mentioned, high circulating levels of IGF-1 are not desirable and may have detrimental effects on brain and lung tissue. Therefore, it appears that the optimal levels of HGH and IGF-1 in relation to building muscle, occurs naturally and is optimally stimulated by resistance training (and diet).

Furions Report
I will follow on from Brads article- through a neutral perspective to dissect this contentious and quantitatively negative finding of myogenic/hypertrophic activity as it pertains to applicable pharmacological qualitative analyses.
I will preface this by indicating that it the information presented here is in fact casted through substantiated hypothetical molecular targeting and effector downstream cascades. It is thus collectively theorized- however does indeed form congruence with the comprehensive quantitative results Brad has described. 

As a sort of add-on bonus to the topic- I will describe a potential reason for the widely noted (and consequently accepted) discrepancies of approved GH as somatotropin pharmaceuticals vs. unapproved generically labelled GH- as it pertains to the manufacturing processes. 
*********************************************************************
To examine the pharmacological activity of supraphysiological growth hormone administration for the physique athlete- it would seem most suitable to establish the endogenous fluxes and bioactivity during resistance exercise and then model these against the (then deduced) molecular targets and downstream effectors that may be conducive to myogenesis when using a pharmaceutical. 
In doing this, it is pertinent to stipulate that GH, as a pituitary hormone, occurs as a “superfamily” of (now currently identified) 4 different molecular isoforms, these categorized by the weight (20 kDa, non-22 kDa, 44 kDa, and 66 kDa (1). Each isoform appears to bear role in mediating physiological activity during recovery in response to exercise stress (1-4). The pharmaceutical preparations of GH (as somatotropin) occur as only the monomeric 22kDa peptide, hence it is important to make this distinction when scrutinizing the endogenous patterns against exogenous administrations in exercise models and to consider that the complexity is such that no finites or absolutes can yet be made as to the complete pharmacological myogenic activity. 

In saying this, associated evidence does suggest that in non-aged, non-obese subjects the more rapid-response patterns and greatest fluxes of endogenous GH associated with anaerobic resistance exercise are actually related to this 22-kDa (immunoreactive GH) isoform (5-8) see figure 1. It is also worth noting that there does appear to be aged and body compositional implications to the magnitude of the responses (7,8). 

It is now understood that the growth hormone receptor (GHR) is ubiquitious and through signal transduction can have effect on all tissues (9,10). From a broad analytical examinations, any likely anabolic activity associated with exogenous GH will be confounded by anabolic activity of GH stimulated, hepatic secreted systemically circulating IGF-1. It has been recently identified that the anabolic activities between these two hormones may be in fact independent of each other, potentially additive and in respect to the endogenous patterns; synergistic as it pertains to myogenesis and tissue repair (11). Henceforth for the purposes of distinguishing these two hormones as exogenous preparations, this report will focus on that unique to GH alone.

Cumulative data suggests that the molecular patterns specific with growth hormone administration (or secretion) in combination with resistant exercise are hallmarked by an up regulation of a tissue specific mechanosensitive isoforms of IGF-1 (12,13). These are IGF-1 isoforms literally produced by skeletal muscle, to act locally within the skeletal muscle; a paracrine response (13,14). Skeletal muscle induced IGF undergoes alternative splicing and generates 3 isoforms; IGF1Ea, IGF1Eb and IGF1Ec (15,16). The IGF1Ec isoform, colloquially known as mechano growth factor (MGF) appears the most active and also has recently been implicated as the likely main driver behind the paracrine activity that may have the terminal responsibility for the downstream myogenesis associated with resistance training and subjectively augmented by growth hormone (17,18). 
MGF (as IGF-1Ec) has been shown to activate muscle satellite cells, promote myonuclei accumulation and expand myofiber diameter (17,19) whilst growth hormone has independently been shown to rapidly induce expression of MGF in muscle satellite cells in varying models, and may in fact do so in an additive manner with MGF when combined with resistance training (12,13,20). 

So to apply this as a theoretical basis, it may be postulated that the MGF response, as induced by the combination of mechanical loading and exogenous GH administration, may activate muscle satellite cells and accrue extra myonuclei as a repair response in greater amplitude than what can occur in normal physiological conditions. This induced state may therefore somewhat override the negative regulators of satellite cells maturation, such as myostatin, that normally halt and shift the satellite cell activation back into the quiescient state and potentially remove a limitation to the mitotic and subsequent myogenesis (21-23). 

**Working off this premise- there may be further pharmaceutical methods to exploit this mode of action when considering the systemic IGF-1 implications. This would include the use of insulin and other anabolic compounds- however may need a separate article in itself**
Although it may seem as though this could explain the anecdotally claimed skeletal muscle hypertrophic capacity of growth hormone, these actions alone may not account for any measurable degree of muscle strength increase or performance enhancement- hence may provide some degree of rationale for the consistently negative results observed in the quantitative analyses Brad has cited. This has certainly been comprehensively concluded in related qualitative research (24-26). Additionally as this molecular pathway has not been comprehensively researched so I am really at a stretch here to conclusively say that this is the unique pharmacological property of growth hormone that distinguishes it from all performance and image enhancing drugs. 
*****************************************************************************
Peptide syntheses can be performed via two main methods. The distinction between the methods may account for the discrepancies of subjective quality of approved GH preparation against those unapproved generically labelled.
Peptide synthesis can be performed via amino acid binding- known simply as chemical synthesis. This is generally the cheapest and simplest method for peptide syntheses. It is usually performed with apparatus that literally link the individual amino acid together in a linear manner using catalytic enzymes and chemicals. This permits manufacture of perfectly functional short chain peptides (such as melanotan, GHRPs, ect). For synthesizing long chain peptides with 3 dimensional complex binding this method is limited in creating the tertiary and quaternary conformation patterns often associated with these.

So although the peptide sequence may be correct, it is likely that the shape formed by the extra-sequence binding might not be consistently present, if at all.
Recombinant peptide synthesis differs completely. This involves a live in-cell model usually using strains of bacterial or fungi, whereby the DNA and ribosomal transcriptional activity is stimulated so as to produce and then harvest the desired peptide. The peptide will therefore contain the bioidentical, 3 dimensional structure owing to the presence of the tertiary and quaternary peptide bonding. This is often necessary to the exploit the complete activity of the hormone and given research has not completely elucidated the binding properties of the GH receptor at the skeletal muscle, we must assume that the structural homogeneity is necessary for this binding. This therefore may serve as plausible explanation for the biological activity discrepancies between GH preparations.

As completed synthetic preparations, the stability of each peptide between these manufacturing procedures can also give reason as to the variance in the bioactivity. A peptide synthesized by chemical means tends to be more flexible and therefore more stable in shorter chains (i.e less than 100 residues). This decreases linearly in concert with the increasing number of residues. The reciprocal applies for recombinantly synthesized peptides. As the growth hormone isomer consists of 191 residues- it could be inferred that subsequent manufacturing procedures, including the lyophilisation (freeze drying), could pose detriment to the integrity of the peptide. A lyoprotectant should be used in GH manufacturing to maintain the structural integrity during this process. As result of the presence of tertiary and quaternary bonds, the recombinantly synthesized peptide is much more stable in the presence of a lyoprotectant. The same can be guaranteed for a chemically synthesized peptide, thus it could be well-assumed a percentage may become damaged as result this process.
Hence it may also seem plausible that a greater percentage of the peptide would be damaged using a chemical synthesis process.


(1) Baumann, G. (1999). Growth hormone heterogeneity in human pituitary and plasma. Hormone Research in Paediatrics, 51(Suppl. 1), 2-6.
(2) Baumann, G. (1991). Growth hormone heterogeneity: genes, isohormones, variants, and binding proteins. Endocrine Reviews, 12(4), 424-449.
(3) Kraemer, W. J., Nindl, B. C., Marx, J. O., Gotshalk, L. A., Bush, J. A., Welsch, J. R., ... & Hymer, W. C. (2006). Chronic resistance training in women potentiates growth hormone in vivo bioactivity: characterization of molecular mass variants. American Journal of Physiology-Endocrinology and Metabolism, 291(6), E1177-E1187.
(4) Wallace, J. D., Cuneo, R. C., Bidlingmaier, M., Lundberg, P. A., Carlsson, L., Boguszewski, C. L., ... & Rosén, T. (2001). The Response of Molecular Isoforms of Growth Hormone to Acute Exercise in Trained Adult Males 1. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 86(1), 200-206. 
(5) Thomas, G. A., Kraemer, W. J., Kennett, M. J., Comstock, B. A., Maresh, C. M., Denegar, C. R., ... & Hymer, W. C. (2011). Immunoreactive and bioactive growth hormone responses to resistance exercise in men who are lean or obese. Journal of Applied Physiology, 111(2), 465-472.
(6) Gordon, S. E., Kraemer, W. J., Vos, N. H., Lynch, J. M., & Knuttgen, H. G. (1994). Effect of acid-base balance on the growth hormone response to acute high-intensity cycle exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology, 76(2), 821-829.
(7) Kraemer, W. J., Fleck, S. J., Dziados, J. E., Harman, E. A., Marchitelli, L. J., Gordon, S. E., ... & Triplett, N. T. (1993). Changes in hormonal concentrations after different heavy-resistance exercise protocols in women. Journal of applied physiology, 75(2), 594-604.
(8) Kraemer, W. J., Marchitelli, L., Gordon, S. E., Harman, E., Dziados, J. E., Mello, R., ... & Fleck, S. J. (1990). Hormonal and growth factor responses to heavy resistance exercise protocols. Journal of Applied Physiology, 69(4), 1442-1450.
(9) Simard, M., Manthos, H., Giaid, A., Lefebvre, Y., & Goodyer, C. G. (1996). Ontogeny of growth hormone receptors in human tissues: an immunohistochemical study. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 81(8), 3097-3102.
(10) List, E. O., Berryman, D. E., Ikeno, Y., Hubbard, G. B., Funk, K., Comisford, R., ... & Bartke, A. (2015). Removal of growth hormone receptor (GHR) in muscle of male mice replicates some of the health benefits seen in global GHR-/-mice. Aging, 7(7), 500-512.
(11) Sotiropoulos, A., Ohanna, M., Kedzia, C., Menon, R. K., Kopchick, J. J., Kelly, P. A., & Pende, M. (2006). Growth hormone promotes skeletal muscle cell fusion independent of insulin-like growth factor 1 up-regulation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 103(19), 7315-7320.
(12) Hameed, M., Lange, K. H. W., Andersen, J. L., Schjerling, P., Kjaer, M., Harridge, S. D. R., & Goldspink, G. (2004). The effect of recombinant human growth hormone and resistance training on IGF‐I mRNA expression in the muscles of elderly men. The Journal of physiology, 555(1), 231-240.
(13) Iida, K., Itoh, E., Kim, D. S., Del Rincon, J. P., Coschigano, K. T., Kopchick, J. J., & Thorner, M. O. (2004). Muscle mechano growth factor is preferentially induced by growth hormone in growth hormone‐deficient lit/lit mice. The Journal of physiology, 560(2), 341-349.
(14) Matheny Jr, R. W., Nindl, B. C., & Adamo, M. L. (2010). Minireview: Mechano-growth factor: a putative product of IGF-I gene expression involved in tissue repair and regeneration. Endocrinology, 151(3), 865-875.
(15) Okazaki, R., Durham, S. K., Riggs, B. L., & Conover, C. A. (1995). Transforming growth factor-β and forskolin increase all classes of insulin-like growth factor-I transcripts in normal human osteoblast-like cells. Biochemical and biophysical research communications, 207(3), 963-970.
(16) Chew, S. L., Lavender, P. A. U. L., Clark, A. J., & Ross, R. J. (1995). An alternatively spliced human insulin-like growth factor-I transcript with hepatic tissue expression that diverts away from the mitogenic IBE1 peptide. Endocrinology, 136(5), 1939-1944.
(17) Dai, Z., Wu, F., Yeung, E. W., & Li, Y. (2010). IGF-IEc expression, regulation and biological function in different tissues. Growth Hormone & IGF Research, 20(4), 275-281.
(18) Yi, Q., Feng, J., He, L., Wan, R., Zeng, H., Yang, L., ... & Tang, L. (2017). The structure-function relationships of insulin-like growth factor 1 Ec in C2C12 cells. Cell Adhesion & Migration, (just-accepted), 00-00.
(19) Mavalli, M. D., DiGirolamo, D. J., Fan, Y., Riddle, R. C., Campbell, K. S., van Groen, T., ... & Clemens, T. L. (2010). Distinct growth hormone receptor signaling modes regulate skeletal muscle development and insulin sensitivity in mice. The Journal of clinical investigation, 120(11), 4007-4020.
(20) Imanaka, M., Iida, K., Murawaki, A., Nishizawa, H., Fukuoka, H., Takeno, R., ... & Chihara, K. (2008). Growth hormone stimulates mechano growth factor expression and activates myoblast transformation in C2C12 cells. Kobe J Med Sci, 54(1), E46-54.
(21) Goldspink, G. (2012). Age-related loss of muscle mass and strength. Journal of aging research, 2012.
(22) Hill, M., & Goldspink, G. (2003). Expression and splicing of the insulin‐like growth factor gene in rodent muscle is associated with muscle satellite (stem) cell activation following local tissue damage. The Journal of Physiology, 549(2), 409-418.
(23) Nederveen, J. P., Joanisse, S., Snijders, T., Ivankovic, V., Baker, S. K., Phillips, S. M., & Parise, G. (2016). Skeletal muscle satellite cells are located at a closer proximity to capillaries in healthy young compared with older men. Journal of cachexia, sarcopenia and muscle, 7(5), 547-554.
(24) Snijders, T., Smeets, J. S. J., Kranenburg, J., Kies, A. K., Loon, L. J. C., & Verdijk, L. B. (2016). Changes in myonuclear domain size do not precede muscle hypertrophy during prolonged resistance‐type exercise training. Acta Physiologica, 216(2), 231-239.
(25) Roth, S. M., Martel, G. F., Ivey, F. M., Lemmer, J. T., Tracy, B. L., Metter, E. J., ... & Rogers, M. A. (2001). Skeletal muscle satellite cell characteristics in young and older men and women after heavy resistance strength training. The Journals of Gerontology Series A: Biological Sciences and Medical Sciences, 56(6), B240-B247.
(26) Kadi, F., Schjerling, P., Andersen, L. L., Charifi, N., Madsen, J. L., Christensen, L. R., & Andersen, J. L. (2004). The effects of heavy resistance training and detraining on satellite cells in human skeletal muscles. The Journal of physiology, 558(3), 1005-1012.


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## muj

Last one, Brad clarifies some points after some questions he got.

Brad's response to some of the feedback he received from everybody regarding his report on HGH and Bodybuilding
Brads initial report is a few posts below, just under Furions breakdown of HGH

Bradley Clarke
Master of Human Factors Engineering and Health Science
DipAppSci;AdvDipEnv;AdvDipBus;GradCertForensInv;MESH;MA; MSIA;MHFESA
Scientific Investigator and Performance Chemist

It would be fair to say that I am old school and would prefer to go Chat Board over FB because it lasts longer. But here we are so I will respond in part as we go to keep the answers congruent with the questions and interesting for people who do not have an opinion or so you can come back with better material.

By the look of some comments I may have been mistaken to have said one does not need growth hormone and or that growth hormone has no value as a pharmacological intervention for disease. This is not what I meant to convey. An above average growth hormone level may confer some advantages to a low level for day to day operation and healing although for the emerging evidence, even this might not be the case. In a 2003 report Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians? from the American 

Association for the Advancement of Science I quote: 
GH treatment can increase body mass and decrease adipose tissue in 61- to 81-year-old men with low plasma IGF-I concentration, and long-term GH replacement therapy causes some improvements in patients with GH deficiencies. However, the "antiaging" effects of GH therapy are typically observed after short-term treatment of patients with low plasma GH. By contrast, chronically high GH levels increase the incidence of diseases, including cancer and kidney diseases in rodents, and increase cardiovascular diseases and cancer in human acromegaly patients. GH administration also increases the development of diabetes and glucose intolerance in healthy, older women and men and increases morbidity and mortality in patients that are clinically ill, even after short-term treatment). It is clear that a major and chronic increase in plasma GH/IGF-I levels increases morbidity and mortality.[1]

My intention was not really to argue about life extension however one of my bug bears is the sale of goods which do not work to people who do not need them; a consumer advocate if you will. 90% of bodybuilders will never walk on stage with Luke, do not have the genetics, time to train, funds to supplement. Where is your dollar best put? I can only speak to the published trials. 

Consider a 6 month program (which I haven’t found any studies in athletes going that long to answer one question) at 10iu per day. Let’s assume growth hormone is $10 at iu. That’s $100 per day for 185 days; $18,500. That is a serious investment. Short term administration at 16iu had no real BB effect (unless you sprint) over 28 days. This should be our starting point. Not Broscience, actual controlled studies with a placebo group. At 16iu for six months the bill is $29,600. For reference that is a bottle of red wine and 4kg of steak a day for six months. The critical point here is the WADA study found that over 28 days the lean mass accretion was attributable to extracellular water weight. I am happy to entertain that over a longer period some genes may be expressed at a greater level (Furion has suggested some) but in the long term trials soon to be discussed, there was no evidence of this, at least at 2.4iu/day. 

It has been suggested that there are thousands of studies saying I am wrong. This is not the case but I concede that there are studies which do support the alternative. When one cites a study you should look at various key attributes beyond the title and abstract. I always do a quick search of the authors and whether the institute is funded and by who. Especially when forming legal arguments. This is why-

A number of links were attached by one reader who disagrees with my assertions. I like being disagreed with and hope to even change my mind. But these studies are not the ones to convince me of a number of key points to my argument:
1. Growth hormone is not worth the investment even if it does work.
2. It does not work.
3. The side effects are not worth the gain in lean muscle mass. 
Effect of growth hormone (GH) on the immune system. [2]
This study is not relevant. The full study is not available and may have been retracted. If not it supports my contention. To quote: However, in humans GH deficiency is not usually associated with immunodeficiency and only minor abnormalities of immune function have been reported, as compared to those observed in GHD animals. It is possible that in humans the GH produced locally in the immune system compensates for the lack of endocrine GH. Thus compensatory growth hormone is not required for immune function. 

Two years of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone increases bone mineral density in men with idiopathic osteoporosis. [3]

This study was in idiopathic osteoporosis patients who were administered calcium and vitamin D at the same time as growth hormone replacement. There was no control group and no calcium and vitamin D group only. We know one of the treatments for osteoporosis is calcium and vitamin D. In the two treatment groups, 1.2iu and 2.4iu per day were administered for three years. 

The results did not impress the researchers and they conclude: 
• A barrier to GH as a plausible therapy for osteoporosis is that the improvements in BMD in this present and other studies are not as impressive as those usually seen with antiresorptive agents.
• A second barrier to GH treatment is side effects. However, the side effects of GH treatment are well known from numerous studies in GHD and GH-sufficient subjects and are usually well tolerated and seldom cause interruption of treatment
• The GH treatment did not have any effect on bone size, according to the method used in this study. 
• However, the absence of a placebo-treated control group strongly limits the conclusions that can be drawn about the efficacy of the treatment in this study; and double blind, placebo-controlled studies are needed to further elucidate the effects of GH on BMD and fracture risk in male idiopathic osteoporosis.
Moreover, this study was funded by a growth hormone producer (Upjohn and Pharmica Swdn). That must have been disappointing for them given other treatments were recommended over GH for increasing bone mass density over long term.

Growth hormone modulates migration of developing T cells. [4]
This study is about thymus atrophy and AIDS patients who are growth hormone deficient. The study concludes: Interestingly, enhancement of thymopoieisis in aging animals was also achieved with the use of IGF-1 as well as ghrelin, a potent GH secretagogue. 
Grelin receptor activation can be achieved through ipamorelin (or GHPR-6/2, hexarhelin etc) or MK677. I come back to cost if thymus atrophy is an issue. The study is speculative but say 2iu GH per day $20 vs 10mg MK677 for $2. The study does not call for supraphysiological growth hormone administration in anycase. 
The final link was an ad for MK-677. I have not commented on growth hormone secretagogues which may have a place due to the cost effective nature. They may increase growth hormone to supraphysiological levels transiently. 

If we are to study whether growth hormone is a cost effective mass gainer, beyond 4kg of steak and a bottle of Pepperjack Shiraz per day then the argument needs to be better than those studies. 
In regards to why growth hormone makes you feel better, simply it is a gene switch which manipulates genes. That is not is not to say you are not taking quality of life from your latter years and enjoying the experience now. 

I’ll do a list of the genes which may include mu-opiod gene expression (reducing pain) and nerve tissue regeneration genes. Sleep is great for recovery and I am a big fan (at $1 per day not $20). Sleep is not reliant on growth hormone. Aspiring to a long nose, long ears and longer fingers and toes are a personal choice. I assume growth hormone is the only way to achieve those and may be worth the investment. It is for short statured children. 

Why are body builders bigger? Check out Coleman’s published cycle, 1100mg per day. Dan Duchaine is dead and not even he used that much (1100mg per week). Training techniques have changed (thanks to the science) food is better. Gene therapy, myostatin, IGF-1, growth hormone (sure) and are they really any different? Dorian Yates and Phil Health have similar stats, size and look. https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162829521

1 Longo, V. D., & Finch, C. E. (2003). Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians?. Science, 299(5611), 1342-1346.
2 Meazza, C., Pagani, S., Travaglino, P., & Bozzola, M. (2004). Effect of growth hormone (GH) on the immune system. Pediatric endocrinology reviews: PER, 1, 490-495.
3 Gillberg, P., Mallmin, H., Petrén-Mallmin, M., Ljunghall, S., & Nilsson, A. G. (2002). Two years of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone increases bone mineral density in men with idiopathic osteoporosis. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 87(11), 4900-4906.
4 Dardenne, M., Smaniotto, S., Mello‐Coelho, D., Villa‐Verde, D. M. S., & Savino, W. (2009). Growth hormone modulates migration of developing T cells. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1153(1), 1-5.


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## AGGRO

A lot of great info in this thread. 

muj that's a lot to read over. Thanks for posting it.


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## muj

No probs, yeah it's a lot to read lol but it's honestly very interesting and will challenge a lot of people's previous thoughts of hgh which is great for this thread


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## gungalunga

I have never used HGH, so I can't give an informed opinion on its usage. One thing I did notice in the first few studies he listed is that they were done for 12-16 weeks. I have read some peoples board posts that have said you have to use HGH for 6 months to get real benefits from it. For any experienced HGH users here...does the 6 month time frame sound correct?


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## Racepicks

I'm not going to really dispute any of the points made in Bradley Clarke's article or Podcast.  Especially muj's first post.  Frankly, Brad is saying what we all knew, that low dosed HGH will not result in strength or muscle mass, and may result in an increase in insulin resistance.  I have no studies to back up my claim but, I do believe in the benefits of anti-aging.  I believe that more than I believe that HGH caused a reduced life-span in mice and rats of 30-70%.  Also anyone who would make this claim, "There is no evidence that black market hGH has not come from cadavers.", automatically makes me question the remainder of his arguments.

By the way, I too would like to hear Scott Stevenson's view on muj's posts.  He did say he would check out the thread, which he did, but also said he was busy and would try to respond when he had a chance.  I believe he would agree with most of what Brad has stated, minus a few things I have noted.


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## muj

Racepicks said:


> I'm not going to really dispute any of the points made in Bradley Clarke's article or Podcast.  Especially muj's first post.  Frankly, Brad is saying what we all knew, that low dosed HGH will not result in strength or muscle mass, and may result in an increase in insulin resistance.  I have no studies to back up my claim but, I do believe in the benefits of anti-aging.  I believe that more than I believe that HGH caused a reduced life-span in mice and rats of 30-70%.  Also anyone who would make this claim, "There is no evidence that black market hGH has not come from cadavers.", automatically makes me question the remainder of his arguments.
> 
> By the way, I too would like to hear Scott Stevenson's view on muj's posts.  He did say he would check out the thread, which he did, but also said he was busy and would try to respond when he had a chance.  I believe he would agree with most of what Brad has stated, minus a few things I have noted.


Yeah that cadaver point was a bit weird. He did address it later but I won't post it just basically said he was referring to the past. 

I disagree with a lot of what Brad posted (and agree with parts too), I think the second one which is Furion has a bit more of a positive spin on hgh so I tend to agree more with him. But I think regardless of agreeing or disagreeing I found them to be interesting reads anyway as it challenges the conventional thinking of hgh by bodybuilders since it probably is the most misunderstood PED out there so it makes for good discussion.


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## Racepicks

muj said:


> Yeah that cadaver point was a bit weird. He did address it later but I won't post it just basically said he was referring to the past.
> 
> I disagree with a lot of what Brad posted (and agree with parts too), I think the second one which is Furion has a bit more of a positive spin on hgh so I tend to agree more with him. But I think regardless of agreeing or disagreeing I found them to be interesting reads anyway as it challenges the conventional thinking of hgh by bodybuilders since it probably is the most misunderstood PED out there so it makes for good discussion.



100%  Any type of posts that result in good discussions are so important.  Most of the posts I've made on this thread are to spur different opinions.  As I stated many times, I am not an expert, but what I post are my opinions. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion!


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## TeknoViking

gungalunga said:


> I have never used HGH, so I can't give an informed opinion on its usage. One thing I did notice in the first few studies he listed is that they were done for 12-16 weeks. I have read some peoples board posts that have said you have to use HGH for 6 months to get real benefits from it. For any experienced HGH users here...does the 6 month time frame sound correct?



It starts working as soon an you inject it. If you have a tight diet and are in a leaning out phase you will notice it immediately.


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## Racepicks

TeknoViking said:


> It starts working as soon an you inject it. If you have a tight diet and are in a leaning out phase you will notice it immediately.



Please expand, Techno.  Notice what exactly?  Fat loss?


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## K1

Racepicks said:


> Please expand, Techno.  Notice what exactly?  Fat loss?



:yeahthat:I have run more gh over the years then most people I know (mainly to help with my eating distorter (eat until I'm sick lol)...But there were plenty of times in the beginning where I kept shit on point and never noticed any effects immediately?! I mean, after some days or a week I would start getting the carpel-tunnel syndrome, arms and hands falling asleep all the time and pain (and that may have been a little longer then a week for that to show but don't really remember)...But never any energy, fat loss or hardening or any type of positive effect out of the norm?!

But like everything there are so many variables...I also always ran mine right before bed (unless I was doing 10+ui/ed) and have always heard the argument back and forth about timing so I know about as much as anyone that hasn't researched, experimented or followed any of the published facts about hGH...So I really know jack-shit:sFun_zipit:


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## Racepicks

Yeah, K1*.  That is essentially where I was going.  I have never been real lean and super muscular, so I wanted to see if someone in that condition could actually see that "3-D Effect" almost immediately.  We have all read posts about dudes injecting 10iu's of HGH before bed and waking up with a whole different look the next morning.  We have all, at some point, woke up in the morning, looked in the mirror and said "Damn...I look good!!


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## Sandpig

Racepicks said:


> Hey Sandpig!  We talked on ProMuscle about World Gym in Providence.  I remember Hank, but what was his Partners name (I can see his face)?  I remember his Son Chris, they also started a fitness equipment company, Big Fitness.  What was his name?


Hey sorry it took so long here.

His partners name was Al. Same as mine BTW.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Racepicks

Sandpig said:


> Hey sorry it took so long here.
> 
> His partners name was Al. Same as mine BTW.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



Thanks Sandpig.  Turns out Squatster was around the area back in those days.  We were reminiscing about the old Rhode Island Bodybuilding Gym, owned by Carl Tag.  Carl moved the Gym from Branch Ave. to Douglas Ave. and franchised into World Gym.  He subsequently sold to Al and Hank.  The good ole' days!


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## TeknoViking

gungalunga said:


> I have never used HGH, so I can't give an informed opinion on its usage. One thing I did notice in the first few studies he listed is that they were done for 12-16 weeks. I have read some peoples board posts that have said you have to use HGH for 6 months to get real benefits from it. For any experienced HGH users here...does the 6 month time frame sound correct?





TeknoViking said:


> It starts working as soon an you inject it. If you have a tight diet and are in a leaning out phase you will notice it immediately.





Racepicks said:


> Please expand, Techno.  Notice what exactly?  Fat loss?



This whole you need to run growth for 6+ months to see its effects is false. Maybe some people who are loose with their diet it will take that long to see some fatloss but not for those of us that are leaner or in a dieting phase. The fat loss will start immediately if you are in a calorie deficit. Run a 2-3 week cycle with dnp and run another 2-3 week cycle with dnp along with hgh the 2nd cycle you will see much better results in terms of fat loss.

Have I noticed an increase in muscle that I attribute to growth? I can't say I have. It gives me a really full look (intramuscular water weight others describe it as 3d). I have used doses of 10ius ed, 4ius ed and everything in between for years at a time (all in one shot, split doses, 2ius am 2ius pre workout 2ius pre bed etc) even when I was just rock climbing, playing video games and not training with weights at all but I never felt that it added muscle. It helps me push the food and stay lean while making gains though. When I am blasting and throw in some slin it helps me stay lean. Does staying more lean create a better environment for gaining muscle we know it does. Now the slin/anabolics/hgh combo is amazing for gains but I don't think the hgh is carrying this combo in terms of LBM gains.

For me personally I can be off growth for an extended period of time shoot 2ius 1-3 hours before the gym and be more pumped and more vascular while I am training. For those of you that have never taken growth take 2ius pre bed and you will sleep like a baby. I consider all these things benefits and feeling the effects of growth hormone.

For people who have more flab I don't think the cosmetic effects are going to be as pronounced compared to someone who has lower body fat...but that can be said with all these drugs.


----------



## Racepicks

TeknoViking said:


> This whole you need to run growth for 6+ months to see its effects is false. Maybe some people who are loose with their diet it will take that long to see some fatloss but not for those of us that are leaner or in a dieting phase. The fat loss will start immediately if you are in a calorie deficit. Run a 2-3 week cycle with dnp and run another 2-3 week cycle with dnp along with hgh the 2nd cycle you will see much better results in terms of fat loss.
> 
> Have I noticed an increase in muscle that I attribute to growth? I can't say I have. It gives me a really full look (intramuscular water weight others describe it as 3d). I have used doses of 10ius ed, 4ius ed and everything in between for years at a time (all in one shot, split doses, 2ius am 2ius pre workout 2ius pre bed etc) even when I was just rock climbing, playing video games and not training with weights at all but I never felt that it added muscle. It helps me push the food and stay lean while making gains though. When I am blasting and throw in some slin it helps me stay lean. Does staying more lean create a better environment for gaining muscle we know it does. Now the slin/anabolics/hgh combo is amazing for gains but I don't think the hgh is carrying this combo in terms of LBM gains.
> 
> For me personally I can be off growth for an extended period of time shoot 2ius 1-3 hours before the gym and be more pumped and more vascular while I am training. For those of you that have never taken growth take 2ius pre bed and you will sleep like a baby. I consider all these things benefits and feeling the effects of growth hormone.
> 
> For people who have more flab I don't think the cosmetic effects are going to be as pronounced compared to someone who has lower body fat...but that can be said with all these drugs.



Great post.  So tired of people basing their opinion on something that has been posted by others in the past.  When you try something personally and post your opinion by the results you achieved, that really captures my attention.  Thanks for the response, TV!


----------



## cybrsage

Racepicks said:


> Yeah Buck!  I wonder if the MK with the HGH somehow has a synergistic effect when used together.  I would like to explore that possibility further



It is possible, but most likely they will be simply additive.  I know injecting HGH directly raises your GH level - I mean, duh, right!  
MK677 causes your body to create a dozen or more GH pulses during the day and thereby raises your GH level.

I suspect they would just be additive, but please give it a shot and let us know!


----------



## psych

So no one notices anything in the strength department...
MK677 works great but I would nod off all day tried half dose and it was ok but thaqt shit puts me to sleep. Couldnt take it at night cause i would just stay up hot, hungry, and bloated. But I got my cpap sooo


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## K1

psych said:


> So no one notices anything in the strength department...
> MK677 works great but I would nod off all day tried half dose and it was ok but thaqt shit puts me to sleep. Couldnt take it at night cause i would just stay up hot, hungry, and bloated. But I got my cpap sooo



Never noticed any strength gains using HGH.


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## psych

K1 said:


> Never noticed any strength gains using HGH.


----------



## Sully

Need a hug, buddy?


----------



## psych

Sully said:


> Need a hug, buddy?


:sniper:
[ame]https://youtu.be/qyUnSuYYs18[/ame]


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## Sully

psych said:


> :sniper:
> https://youtu.be/qyUnSuYYs18



[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ArNz8U7tgU4[/ame]


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## b-boy

Racepicks said:


> I want to invite anyone who has a contrary opinion to anything I have posted to go ahead and question, and counter with opposing viewpoints.  I am posting "My Thoughts", which may be completely wrong.  Don't think I am posting because I know what the hell I'm talking about!!  I have invited Scott Stevenson (Homonunculus) to come by and rip into me if I'm wrong.  If you are not familiar with Scott, you have been living under a rock!  He is one of the most respected people in our community (google FORTITUDE TRAINING).  He is a wealth of knowledge and can only contribute to the discussion.  I also see IFBB Pro b-boy in here.  I may have unintentionally used his "My Thoughts"!  Sorry Brad.  He is also one of the most knowledgeable, and willing to share that knowledge with us all.  Come in b-boy, I know you want to comment!



have a lot of conflicting thoughts on HGH anymore, from a bodybuilding want to be a fucking freak point of view, it is a valuable tool to getting freaky big, anything that allows a lot of calories to be consumed and not be stored as fat as much is a huge plus in the battle to getting freaking huge, and also anything that forces more water inside the muscle cell creating a more anabolic environment is also a plus, its synergy with inuslin and creating more IGF is also a win in the battle, but from a normal person want to live a long and healthy life gh is not the best thing, I think peptides that give short pulses like your normal gh secretion from your pituitary is way more healthy than the long drawn out gh rise that exogenous and even peptides (with DAC) are not good for the human body and your insulin sensitivity. the older I get the more I tend to "shy away" from HGH for a good part of the year and maybe run a little precontest and I may even discontinue it also and just stick to short peptide induced GH spikes instead. im at work right now and can't really type out everything but this is my initial thoughts.


----------



## K1

b-boy said:


> have a lot of conflicting thoughts on HGH anymore, from a bodybuilding want to be a fucking freak point of view, it is a valuable tool to getting freaky big, anything that allows a lot of calories to be consumed and not be stored as fat as much is a huge plus in the battle to getting freaking huge, and also anything that forces more water inside the muscle cell creating a more anabolic environment is also a plus, its synergy with inuslin and creating more IGF is also a win in the battle, but from a normal person want to live a long and healthy life gh is not the best thing, I think peptides that give short pulses like your normal gh secretion from your pituitary is way more healthy than the long drawn out gh rise that exogenous and even peptides (with DAC) are not good for the human body and your insulin sensitivity. the older I get the more I tend to "shy away" from HGH for a good part of the year and maybe run a little precontest and I may even discontinue it also and just stick to short peptide induced GH spikes instead. im at work right now and can't really type out everything but this is my initial thoughts.



These are some very good thoughts B...And from my standpoint (a person who has abused HGH over the years going as high as 30iu/ed for extended periods of time), it's interesting hearing the point of view about long term health versus the bodybuilding aspect!

I look forward to you expanding on this and also on the peptide aspect you mention and how some can give the shorter bursts over the extended HGH release.

I am still one of those old school minded guys that have never researched anything on the peptide side of bodybuilding (reached the phase before stopping everything where "You don't need anything else!", aside from the Test, Tren and HGH!)...Will go to see this discussion expand a little more to there.


----------



## Turkishexpress

My two cents since my experience with GH has been limited to a few years.  For about a year I had access to Serostim through some HIV patients who worked out at my gym.  The biggest thing I noticed was I was able to maintain a good amount of muscle mass with minimum aas (200mg test cyp ew) with no daily side effects.  My feet grew a size and a half to 13/14 and my hands got really thick.  Everyone still comments on their thickness.  Also I had to get all of my metal strapped watches since my wrists grew.  This after only a year of use!!

I even got my mom on it.  She lost 20lbs in one year without any exercise and still bothers me about finding more because her hair and skin was much improved during that year.  

In terms of underground hgh, I used the original rips.  The rips I could tell did something but only if used at much higher dosages to get the same effects.  About 5-10 ius per day.  I did use a few other sources as well (some from sources on here) and I rather not comment since I don't think they were any good.


----------



## pesty4077

OK RP, I decided to give some feedback. I am not basing this on science, but actual hands on experience. Since we are both older guys, GH to me is a game changer in older men. I am approaching close to 58, yet look leaner then most young guys in gym. Now before you go and buy up a year's supply of GH, you need to know a few things. GH can make your TSH levels rise, also can make you pre diabetic. This is of course when taking around 5 IUs of GH per day. You need to get blood work when on it. I suggest that with AAS too. 

I take GH like this: 5 IUs at night before bed. I also take metformin 500 MG morning and night. This keeps me in check with my blood sugars. I also take a small dose of T4, Depending of blood work around 50 MCG to 100 MCG. Once in a while I will use T3 at 25 MCG, seems to speed up fat loss more. 

Now I am want to be healthy foremost, so taking 125 MG of test, 200 MG of Masteron and 100 MG of Primo is a mega cycle to me. I will do the the AAS for about 3 to 4 months at a time, then get off completely. About 1 month off, then 1 to 2 months of around 100 MG Test only. My GH protocol is a little different. I will take GH for about 4-6 months, then get off for 1 month. Usually around my vacation times. When off GH and I drop the little water weight, that is when I look my best. 

Right now I am in Romania for 1 month. This is my time off. I tend not to lose size this way, but of course I am not a huge guy by no means. I am about the leanest guy in the gym here, expect one guy who is competing in about 6 weeks. He looks great. AAS id easy to get here and they are more open about it. He tells me if you can get any real GH (Most he says are fakes) it runs 300 Euros a kit for generic.

In the end and in conclusion, GH makes me look like a different person. It helps that much, however I don't eat like crap most times either. My diet is healthy all year, so getting a little leaner is a little easier for me. Without proper Diet and training, it will only do so much. I have great blood work too with my protocol. Learn to get blood work for anything you take.


----------



## pesty4077

I would like also to comment about MK-677. I try it one time and felt like shit on it. Maybe I was taking too much, but I was only taking 25 MG. The difference is MK-677 will raise your BP more. It will also make you hold more water weight compare to GH. I was tired all the time. Well, at least that is what I experience. IMO, I would rather take GH then MK-677.


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## b-boy

pesty4077 said:


> I would like also to comment about MK-677. I try it one time and felt like shit on it. Maybe I was taking too much, but I was only taking 25 MG. The difference is MK-677 will raise your BP more. It will also make you hold more water weight compare to GH. I was tired all the time. Well, at least that is what I experience. IMO, I would rather take GH then MK-677.


 shit I cannot handle 25mg at all, I take about 12.5 and even that blows me the fuck up, MK-677 is seriously some powerful shit, I don't feel its overall effect on fat loss is as good as pharma GH (no way) but its effect growth wise is pretty pronounced especially considering the massive price difference.

1. if I wanted to grow as much as possible using as much food as I can while staying as lean as I can and use the least amount of AAS then pharma GH is the route I would take.
2. If you wan't to save a fuck ton of money and get as huge as possible then I would run Mk-677 (at a high as dose as you can handle) and a heavier dose of AAS, not as healthy as choice 1 but very very effective.


----------



## b-boy

also I feel peptides like ghrp-2,6, IP and others that utilize a short high pulse of your own natural GH is a much healthier way to go about things, its effect on blood glucose levels are way better than long drawn out higher levels of growth hormone either by peptides like cjc-1295 with DAC and pharma GH, or MK-677. this is something that phil hernon has discussed with me and I tend to agree with him.

you want the effect to be as normal to your body and pituitary as possible.


----------



## j2048b

pesty4077 said:


> OK RP, I decided to give some feedback. I am not basing this on science, but actual hands on experience. Since we are both older guys, GH to me is a game changer in older men. I am approaching close to 58, yet look leaner then most young guys in gym. Now before you go and buy up a year's supply of GH, you need to know a few things. GH can make your TSH levels rise, also can make you pre diabetic. This is of course when taking around 5 IUs of GH per day. You need to get blood work when on it. I suggest that with AAS too.
> 
> I take GH like this: 5 IUs at night before bed. I also take metformin 500 MG morning and night. This keeps me in check with my blood sugars. I also take a small dose of T4, Depending of blood work around 50 MCG to 100 MCG. Once in a while I will use T3 at 25 MCG, seems to speed up fat loss more.
> 
> Now I am want to be healthy foremost, so taking 125 MG of test, 200 MG of Masteron and 100 MG of Primo is a mega cycle to me. I will do the the AAS for about 3 to 4 months at a time, then get off completely. About 1 month off, then 1 to 2 months of around 100 MG Test only. My GH protocol is a little different. I will take GH for about 4-6 months, then get off for 1 month. Usually around my vacation times. When off GH and I drop the little water weight, that is when I look my best.
> 
> Right now I am in Romania for 1 month. This is my time off. I tend not to lose size this way, but of course I am not a huge guy by no means. I am about the leanest guy in the gym here, expect one guy who is competing in about 6 weeks. He looks great. AAS id easy to get here and they are more open about it. He tells me if you can get any real GH (Most he says are fakes) it runs 300 Euros a kit for generic.
> 
> In the end and in conclusion, GH makes me look like a different person. It helps that much, however I don't eat like crap most times either. My diet is healthy all year, so getting a little leaner is a little easier for me. Without proper Diet and training, it will only do so much. I have great blood work too with my protocol. Learn to get blood work for anything you take.


Thanks for this i have a few q

1. my bg levels arr already weird and fluctuate between 99-110 upon waking would metformin help me a bit?

2. If gh can make u pre diabetic and my waking bg fluctuates between 99-110 already and i throw in met will gh and met together  lower it too much? Or will the gh and met fight each other one trying to raise bg while the other is trying to lower bg? 

3. Impressive usage of compounds, ur eating and lifting must really be on point to have such small amounts of aas volume, very awesome, thts what my goal is, small volume of aas, some gh, maybe slin, to get freakish, and lift n eat right

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## pesty4077

j2048b said:


> Thanks for this i have a few q
> 
> 1. my bg levels arr already weird and fluctuate between 99-110 upon waking would metformin help me a bit?
> 
> 2. If gh can make u pre diabetic and my waking bg fluctuates between 99-110 already and i throw in met will gh and met together  lower it too much? Or will the gh and met fight each other one trying to raise bg while the other is trying to lower bg?
> 
> 3. Impressive usage of compounds, ur eating and lifting must really be on point to have such small amounts of aas volume, very awesome, thts what my goal is, small volume of aas, some gh, maybe slin, to get freakish, and lift n eat right
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



I am a lot older then most here, so I tend to try to do things healthier. Metformin has helped stabilized my blood sugars. I also take it for other benefits too. I take 500 MG in morning and at night. When not taking GH, I back down to 500 MG. And to answer your question, I watch things I eat and still train like a competitor. I am not into Insulin too much at my age, but it will get you bigger if used right. 

Lots of people think double the AAS and double the gains. That is not how that works. Why not use the minimum you can if you are still growing from it? Ask most older guys, they back down from big amounts, but still can grow if you do things properly. I am sure B-Boy would back me on that. Guy has freakish size and uses a lot less now a days.


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## j2048b

pesty4077 said:


> I am a lot older then most here, so I tend to try to do things healthier. Metformin has helped stabilized my blood sugars. I also take it for other benefits too. I take 500 MG in morning and at night. When not taking GH, I back down to 500 MG. And to answer your question, I watch things I eat and still train like a competitor. I am not into Insulin too much at my age, but it will get you bigger if used right.
> 
> Lots of people think double the AAS and double the gains. That is not how that works. Why not use the minimum you can if you are still growing from it? Ask most older guys, they back down from big amounts, but still can grow if you do things properly. I am sure B-Boy would back me on that. Guy has freakish size and uses a lot less now a days.


Ok cool thanks for the reply, i see people recommending berbine as opposed to met? Any comparisons from u guys?

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## pesty4077

j2048b said:


> Ok cool thanks for the reply, i see people recommending berbine as opposed to met? Any comparisons from u guys?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



You will probably need a guy who can answer that scientifically, that isn't me. I read many numerous studies and benefits of Metformin. I actively read Life Extension Foundation and take some of their supplements. Here is a good article on it: 


Will Metformin Become the First Anti-Aging Drug? | Life Extension


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## j2048b

pesty4077 said:


> You will probably need a guy who can answer that scientifically, that isn't me. I read many numerous studies and benefits of Metformin. I actively read Life Extension Foundation and take some of their supplements. Here is a good article on it:
> 
> 
> Will Metformin Become the First Anti-Aging Drug? | Life Extension


Thanks sorry to derail  the hgh thread....

Now back to our regular scheduled programming

How long till u saw ir ine typically sees tge 3d effect or just better fat loss


Gh, pharms generics, doesnt matter, items to take while on gh

Blood pressure
Water retention
Kidneys
Liver

Etc....

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## b-boy

j2048b said:


> Ok cool thanks for the reply, i see people recommending berbine as opposed to met? Any comparisons from u guys?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


 berberine  is VERY effective!!!!


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## b-boy

berberine is
anti bacterial
protects the liver
helps arthritis
prevents heart disease (through reducing oxidative stress and inflammation of the blood vessels)
lowers blood pressure
improves cholesterol stats
anti cancer properties
promotes weight loss
improves blood sugar balance (what you want when taking HGH)
treats inflammation (what I love about it)
supports gut health (another reason I love it)
improves learning and memory
and the list goes on and on and on and on

sorry to go off topic but a plus to take with HGH if wanting to help control and regulate blood sugar.


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## j2048b

b-boy said:


> berberine is
> anti bacterial
> protects the liver
> helps arthritis
> prevents heart disease (through reducing oxidative stress and inflammation of the blood vessels)
> lowers blood pressure
> improves cholesterol stats
> anti cancer properties
> promotes weight loss
> improves blood sugar balance (what you want when taking HGH)
> treats inflammation (what I love about it)
> supports gut health (another reason I love it)
> improves learning and memory
> and the list goes on and on and on and on
> 
> sorry to go off topic but a plus to take with HGH if wanting to help control and regulate blood sugar.


Would u recommend over metformin?
Its not off topic really because gh people need to know what to take while on gh as well id suppose

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## b-boy

j2048b said:


> would u recommend over metformin?
> Its not off topic really because gh people need to know what to take while on gh as well id suppose
> 
> sent from my sm-g935v using tapatalk


 *yes!!!*


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## j2048b

b-boy said:


> *yes!!!*


Well crud i may have to get some but got a script for met

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## Racepicks

b-boy said:


> shit I cannot handle 25mg at all, I take about 12.5 and even that blows me the fuck up, MK-677 is seriously some powerful shit, I don't feel its overall effect on fat loss is as good as pharma GH (no way) but its effect growth wise is pretty pronounced especially considering the massive price difference.
> 
> 1. if I wanted to grow as much as possible using as much food as I can while staying as lean as I can and use the least amount of AAS then pharma GH is the route I would take.
> 2. If you wan't to save a fuck ton of money and get as huge as possible then I would run Mk-677 (at a high as dose as you can handle) and a heavier dose of AAS, not as healthy as choice 1 but very very effective.



This^^^

Blows me away!  I used 50mg per day of MK-677 for 8 weeks and saw no noticeable elevation of IGF-1 levels over 4iu's of HGH per day.  My assumption was that 4iu's of HGH was better than 50mg. of MK-677.  So here comes the scientific questions, maybe IGF-1 is not the benchmark for growth.  Maybe MK-677's effectiveness is not that it raises IGF-1 levels, but actually binds to the receptors better than IGF-1.  Maybe I just have an old worn out liver that has a very limited ability to convert HGH or MK-677 to IGF-1.  One thing for sure, I have the utmost respect for b-boy.  IFBB Pros didn't become IFBB Pros without knowing what they're talking about!  :headbang:


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## j2048b

Racepicks said:


> This^^^
> 
> Blows me away!  I used 50mg per day of MK-677 for 8 weeks and saw no noticeable elevation of IGF-1 levels over 4iu's of HGH per day.  My assumption was that 4iu's of HGH was better than 50mg. of MK-677.  So here comes the scientific questions, maybe IGF-1 is not the benchmark for growth.  Maybe MK-677's effectiveness is not that it raises IGF-1 levels, but actually binds to the receptors better than IGF-1.  Maybe I just have an old worn out liver that has a very limited ability to convert HGH or MK-677 to IGF-1.  One thing for sure, I have the utmost respect for b-boy.  IFBB Pros didn't become IFBB Pros without knowing what they're talking about!  :headbang:


So if ur liver is jacked hgh may not work well? Sorry got to ask didnt know this

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## Racepicks

Since your liver converts HGH to IGF-1, if it is not functioning properly, it will not convert HGH to IGF-1 to it's maximum potential.  When reading your bloodwork, it can be conveyed in your AST ALT Levels.  If these levels are too high, (as can be seen with people suffering with Hep C), they will have a very high HGH Serum Level, but a very low IGF-1 Level.  Quite simply, their liver is unable to convert the HGH, leaving most of the HGH in their system.  Hope this helps!


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## K1

b-boy said:


> berberine is
> anti bacterial
> protects the liver
> helps arthritis
> prevents heart disease (through reducing oxidative stress and inflammation of the blood vessels)
> lowers blood pressure
> improves cholesterol stats
> anti cancer properties
> promotes weight loss
> improves blood sugar balance (what you want when taking HGH)
> treats inflammation (what I love about it)
> supports gut health (another reason I love it)
> improves learning and memory
> and the list goes on and on and on and on
> 
> sorry to go off topic but a plus to take with HGH if wanting to help control and regulate blood sugar.



This is turning out to be a really good discussion...Thanks for this info B!

Like I've mentioned, I've abused more HGH then most people I know and will honestly say that most of the shit mentioned in this thread I either bothered to never research or had no clue about entirely?!


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## j2048b

Racepicks said:


> Since your liver converts HGH to IGF-1, if it is not functioning properly, it will not convert HGH to IGF-1 to it's maximum potential.  When reading your bloodwork, it can be conveyed in your AST ALT Levels.  If these levels are too high, (as can be seen with people suffering with Hep C), they will have a very high HGH Serum Level, but a very low IGF-1 Level.  Quite simply, their liver is unable to convert the HGH, leaving most of the HGH in their system.  Hope this helps!


Awesome to know, my liver has great readings im concerned because they recently found cysts on my liver and my doc wants to check my igf-1 numbers

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## j2048b

Also why t3 and t4 whith gh? Whats with the temperature stuff? Glad to learn all i can 

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## thethinker

Racepicks said:


> Since your liver converts HGH to IGF-1, if it is not functioning properly, it will not convert HGH to IGF-1 to it's maximum potential.  When reading your bloodwork, it can be conveyed in your AST ALT Levels.  If these levels are too high, (as can be seen with people suffering with Hep C), they will have a very high HGH Serum Level, but a very low IGF-1 Level.  Quite simply, their liver is unable to convert the HGH, leaving most of the HGH in their system.  Hope this helps!


Good post. I've retained tons of water on MK, but I'm preferring 4ius of good quality GH over MK. More lypolysis, similar fullness without spilling over.

P.S- There's plenty of pretty slow IFBB pros, genetics will take you very far in this sport. Bboy just happens to be both intelligent and genetically gifted, trust me not all pros are like that.

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## pesty4077

j2048b said:


> Also why t3 and t4 whith gh? Whats with the temperature stuff? Glad to learn all i can
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



*Here is a great article backed by studies. I take T4 due to high TSH levels on GH. Blood work will tell you this more when taking. *

Ok…I’ll explain things a bit further. First, a brief explanation of Thyroid Hormone as well as Growth Hormone may be necessary.

Your thyroid gland secretes two hormones that are going to be of primary importance in understanding Thyroid/GH interaction. The first is thyroxine (T4) and the second is triiodothyronine (T3). T3 is frequently considered the physiologically active hormone, and consequently the one on which most athletes and bodybuilders focus their energies on. T4, on the other hand, is converted in peripheral tissue into T3 by the enzymes in the deiodinase group, of which there are three types- the three iodothyronine deiodinase either catalyze the initiation (D1, D2) or termination (D3) of thyroid hormone effects. The majority of the body’s T3 (about 80%) comes from this conversion via the first two types of deiodinase, while conversion to an inactive state is accomplished by the third type.

It’s important to note that not all of the body’s T4 is converted to T3, however- some remains unconverted. The secretion of T4 is under the control of Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which is produced by the pituitary gland. TSH secretion is in turn controlled through release of Thyrotropin Releasing Hormone which is produced in your hypothalamus. So, when T3 levels go up, TSH secretion is suppressed, due to the body’s self regulatory system known as the “negative feedback loop” . This is also the mechanism whereby exogenous thyroid hormone suppresses natural thyroid hormone production. However, it should be noted that thyroid stimulating hormone (like all other hormones) can not work in a vacuum. TSH also requires the presence of Insulin or Insulin-like Growth Factor to stimulate thyroid function (1) When thyroid hormone is present without either insulin or IGF-1, it has no physiological effect (ibid).

Most people think that T3 is just a physiologically active hormone that regulates bodyfat setpoint and has some minor anabolic effects, but in actuality, in some cases of delayed growth in children, T3 is actually too low, while GH levels are normal, and this has a growth limiting effect on several tissues (2) This could be due to T3’s ability to stimulate the proliferation of IGF-1 mRNA in many tissues (which would, of course, be anabolic), or it could be due to the synergistic effect T3 has on GH, specifically on regulation of the growth hormone gene. Although it is largely overlooked in the world of performance enhancement, regulation of the growth hormone response is predominantly determined by positive control of growth hormone gene transcription which is proportional to the concentration of thyroid hormone-receptor complexes, which are influenced by T3 levels. (3)

At this point, just to give you a better understanding of what’s going on, I think it’s prudent to also give a brief explanation of Growth Hormone (GH) as well.

Your body’s GH is regulated by many internal factors, such as hormones and enzymes. hormones. A change in the level of your body’s GH output begins in the hypothalamus with somatostatin (SS) and growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH). Somatostatin exerts its effect at the pituitary to decrease GH output, while GHRH acts at the pituitary to increase GH output. Together these hormones regulate the level of GH you have in your body. In many cases, GH deficiency presents with a low level of T3, and normal T4(4). This is of course because conversion of T4-T3 is partially dependant on GH (and to some degree GH stimulated IGF-1), and it’s ability to stimulate that conversion process of T4 into T3.

Interestingly, the hypothalamus isn’t the only place where SS is contained; the thyroid gland also contains Somatostatin-producing cells. This is of interest to us, because in the case of the thyroid, it’s been noted that certain hormones which were previously thought only to govern GH secretion can also influence thyroid hormone output as well. SS can directly act to inhibit TSH secretion or it may act on the hypothalamus to inhibit TRHsecretion. So when you add GH into your body from an outside source, you are triggering the body into releasing SS, because your body no longer needs to produce its own supply of GH…and unfortunately, the release of SS can also inhibit TSH, and therefore limit the amount of T4 your body produces.

But that’s not the only interaction we see between the thyroid and Growth Hormone.

As we learned in high-school Biology class, the body likes to maintain homeostasis, or “normal” operating conditions. This is the body’s version of the status quo, and it fights like hell to maintain the comfort of the status quo (much like moderators on most steroid discussion boards). What we see with thyroid/GH interplay is that physiological levels of circulating thyroid hormones are necessary to maintain normal pituitary GH secretion, due to their directly stimulatory actions. However, when serum concentrations of thyroid hormone increase above the normal range we see an increase in hypothalamic somatostatin action, which suppresses pituitary GH secretion and overrides any stimulatory effects that the thyroid hormone may have had on GH. The suppression of GH secretion by thyroid hormones is probably mediated at the hypothalamic level by a decrease in GHRH release(5).

In addition, as IGF-I production isincreased in the hypothalamus after T3 administration and T3 may participate in IGF-1 mediated negative feedback of GH by triggeringeither increased somatostatin tone and/or decreased GHRH production (6). IGF, interestingly, has the ability to mediate some of T3’s effects independent of GH, but not to the same degree GH can (7.) In fact, IGF-I production isincreased in the hypothalamus after T3, administration it may plausibly participate in negative feedback by triggeringeither increased somatostatin tone and/or decreased GHRH production.So we know that GH lowers T4 (more about this in a sec), but an increase in T3 upregulates GH receptors (8) as well as IGF-1 receptors (9,10).

As can be previously stated, and due to the ability of GH to convert inactive T4 into active T3, GH administration in healthy athletes shows us an entirely predicatble increase in mean free T3 (fT3), and a decrease in mean free T4 (fT4)levels.(11) 

hGH converts inactive T4 into active T3

Interaction between GH, IGF-I, T3, and GC. GH stimulates hepatic IGF-I secretion and local production of growth plate IGF-I, and exerts direct actions in the growth plate. Circulating T3 is derived from the thyroid gland and by enzymatic deiodination of T4 in liver and kidne.. The regulatory 5′-DI and 11ßHSD type 2 enzymes may also be expressed in chondrocytes to control local supplies of intracellular T3 and GC. Receptors for each hormone (GHR, IGF-IR, TR, GR) are expressed in growth plate chondrocytes.

So, with the use of GH, what we see is an increased conversion of T4-T3, and possible inhibition of Thyroid Releasing Hormone by Somatostatin, and therefore even though T3 levels may rise, there is no increase in T4 (logically, we see a decrease). Now, as we’ve seen, GH is HIGHLY synergistic with T3 in the body, and as a mater of fact, if you’ve been paying any attention up until this point, you’ll note that the limiting factor on GH’s ability to exert many of it’s effects, is mediated by the amount of T3 in the body.

As noted before, T3 enhances many effects of GH by several mechanisms, including (but not limited to): increasing IGF-1 levels, IGF-1 mRNA levels, and finally by actually mediating the control of the growth hormone gene transcription process as seen below:

Comparison of the kinetics of L-T3-receptor binding abundance to changes in the rate of transcription of the GH gene.(3)

As you can see, T3 levels are directly correlative to GH gene transcription. The scientists who conducted the study which provided the graph above concluded that the amount of T3 present is a regulatory factor on how much GH gene transcription actually occurs. And gene transcription is what actually gives us the effects from GH. This last fact really seems to shed some light on why we need T3 levels to be supraphysiological if we’re going to be using supraphysiological levels of GH, right? Otherwise, the GH we’re using is going to be limited by the amount of T3 our body produces. However, since we’re taking GH, and it is converting more T4 into T3, T4 levels are lowered substantially, and this is the problem with GH. and may actually be THE limiting factor on GH…if we assume that at least some of GH’s effects are enhanced by thyroid hormone, and specifically T3, then what we are looking at is the GH that has been injected is being limited by a lack of T3. But that doesn’t make sense, because if we use T3 + GH, we get a decrease in the anabolic effect of GH.

This is where Mr. Daemon, who had contacted me via an e-mail to my publisher, about Thyroid + GH interaction, was able to shed some light on things. You see, I knew that it couldn’t just be the actual presence of enough T3 along with the GH that was limiting GH’s anabolic effect, because, simply adding T3 to a GH cycle will reduce the anabolic effect of the GH (12.).

Originally, he had said to me that T3 was synergistic with GH, wheras I said that T3 actually reduced the anabolic effects of GH- now I realize we were both correct. Logically this presents a bit of a problem, which I believe can be solved. This came from reading several studies provided to me by Dr.Daemon. the trend I was seeing was that even when Growth Hormone therapy was used, T3 levels needed to be elevated in order to treat several conditions caused by a lack of natural growth hormone. And even if the patient was on GH, T3 levels still needed to be elevated. And what I noticed was that those levels were elevated successfully by using supplemental T4 but not T3.

Here’s why I think this is:

Additional T3 is not all that’s needed here. What’s needed is the actual conversion process of T4-T3, and the deiodinase presence and activity that it involves. This is because Local 5′-deiodination of l-thyroxine (T4) to active the thyroid hormone 3,3′,5-tri-iodothyronine (T3) is catalyzed by the two 5′-deiodinase enzymes (D1 and D2). These enzymes not only “create” T3 out of T4, but actually regulates various T(3)-dependent functions in many tissues including the anterior pituitary and liver. So when there is an excess of T3 in the body, but normal levels of T4, the body’s thyroid axis sends a negative feedback signal., and produces less (D1 and D2) deiodinase, but more of the D3 type, which signals the cessation of the T4-T3 conversion process, and is inhibitory of many of the synergistic effects that T3 has! Remember, Type 3 iodothyronine deiodinase (D3) is the physiologic INACTIVATOR of thyroid hormones and their effects (13)and is well known to have independent interaction with growth factors (which is what GH and IGF-1 are).(14) This is because with adequate T4 and excess T3, (D1 and D2) deiodinase is no longer needed for conversion of T4 into T3, but levels of D3 deiodinase will be elevated. When there is less of the first two types of deidinase, it would seem that the T3 which has been converted to T4 can not exert it’s protein sparing (anabolic effects), as those first two types are responsible for mediation of many of the effects T3 has on the body. This seems to be one of the ways deiodinase contributes to anabolism in the presence of other hormones.

All of this would explain why anecdotally we see bodybuilders who use T3 lose a lot of muscle if they aren’t using anabolics along with it- they’re not utilizing the enzyme that would regulate some of T3’s ability to stimulate protein synthesis, while they are simultaneously signaling the body to produce an inhibitory enzyme (D3). And remember, for decades bodybuilders who were dieting for a contest have been convinced that you lose less muscle with T4 use, but that it’s less effective for losing fat when compared with T3? Well, as we’ve seen, without something (GH in this case) to aid in the conversion process, it would clearly be less effective! Since the deiodinase enzyme is also located in the liver, and we see decreased hepatic nitrogen clearance with GH + T3, it would seem that the D3 enzyme is exerting it’s inhibitory effects, but in the absence of the effects of the first two deiodinase enzymes, it remains unchecked and therefore not only limits the GH’s nitrogen retention capability.

In other words, if we have enough to GH in our body aid in supraphysiological conversion of T4 into T3, but we already have the too much (exogenous) T3, the GH is not going to be converting any excess T4 into T3 after a certain point- which would be a limiting factor in GH’s anabolic effects, when coupled with the act that we’ve allowed the D3 enzyme to inhibit the T3/GH synergy that is necessary.

As further evidence, when we look at certain types of cellular growth (the cartilage cell in this case) we see that GH induced rises in IGF-I stimulates proliferation, whereas T3 is responsible for hypertrophic differentiation. So it would seem that in some tissues, IGF-1 stimulates the synthesis of new cells, while T3 makes them larger. In this particular case, The fact that T4 and (D1) deiodinase is am active component in this system is noted by the authors. They clearly state (paraphrasing) that: “T4 is is converted to T3 by deiodinase (5′-DI type 1) in peripheral tissues…[furthermore]GH stimulates conversion of T4 to T3 , suggesting that some effects of GH may involve this pathway.” The thing I want you to notice is that the authors of this paper state that the that the conversion PATHWAY is probably involved, and not the simple presence of T3. (15 )

Also, that same study notes that T3 has the ability to stimulates IGF-I and expression in tissues that whereas GH has no such effect (ibid).

So what are we doing when we add T3 to GH? We’re effectively shutting down the conversion pathway that is responsible for some of GH’s effects! And what would we be doing if we added in T4 instead of T3? You got it- we’d be enhancing the pathway by allowing the GH we’re using to have more T4 to convert to T3, thus giving us more of an effect from the GH we’re taking. Adding T4 into our GH cycles will actually allow more of the GH to be used effectively!

Remember, the thing that catalyzes the conversion process is the deiodinase enzyme. This is also why using low amounts of T3 would seem (again, anecdotally in bodybuilders) to be able to slightly increase protein synthesis and have an anabolic effect – they aren’t using enough to tell the body to stop or slow down production of the deiodinase enzyme, and hence .Although this analogy isn’t perfect, think of GH as a supercharger you have attached to your car…if you don’t provide enough fuel for it to burn at it’s increased output level, you aren’t going to derive the full effects. Thyroid status also may influence IGF-I expressionin tissues other than the liver.So what we have here is a problem. When we take GH, it lowers T3 levels…but we need T3 to keep our GH receptor levels optimally upregulated. In addition, it’s suspected that many of GH’s anabolic effects are engendered as a result of production of IGF-1, so keeping our IGF receptors upregulated by maintaining adequate levels of T3 seems prudent. But as we’ve just seen, supplementing T3 with our GH will abolish Growth Hormone’s functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, possibly through the effect of reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I (12.)

So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH.

And that’s where myself and Dr. Daemon ended up, after a week of e-mails, researching studies, and gathering clues.

If you’ve been using GH without T4, you’ve been wasting half your money – and if you’ve been using it with T3, you’ve been wasting your time. Start using T4 with your GH, and you’ll finally be getting the full results from your investment.

References:

GrowthFactors. 1990;2(2-3):99-109.Interaction of TSH, insulin and insulin-like growth factors in regulating thyroid growth and function. Eggo MC, Bachrach LK, Burrow GN.

F, Rumpler M, Klaushofer K 1994 Thyroid hormones increase insulin-like growth factor mRNA levels in the clonal osteoblastic cell line MC3T3- E1. FEBS Lett 345: 67–70

Relationship of the rate of transcription to the level of nuclear thyroid hormone-receptor complexes.J Biol Chem. 1984 May 25;259(10):6284-91. Yaffe BM, Samuels HH.

Thyroid morphology and function in adults with untreated isolated growth hormone deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Mar;91(3):860-4. Epub 2006 Jan 4.

Eur J Endocrinol.1995 Dec;133(6):646-53.Influence of thyroid hormones on the regulation of growth hormone secretion. Giustina A, Wehrenberg WB.

Binoux M, Faivre-Bauman A, Lassarre C, Tixier-Vidal A 1985 Triiodothyronine stimulates the production of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) by fetal hypothalamus cells cultured in serum free medium. Dev Brain Res 21:319–323

Eur J Endocrinol. 1996 May;134(5):563-7.Insulin-like growth factor I alters peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism in humans: comparison with growth hormone.Hussain MA, Schmitz O, Jorgensen JO, Christiansen JS, Weeke J, Schmid C, Froesch ER

Harakawa S, Yamashita S, Tobinaga T, Matsuo K, Hirayu H, Izumi M, Nagataki S, Melmed S. In vivo regulation of hepatic insulin-like growth factor-1 messenger ribonucleic acids with thyroid hormone. Endocrinol Jpn 37(2):205-11, 1990

Hochberg Z, Bick T, Harel Z Alterations of human growth hormone binding by rat liver membranes during hypo- and hyperthyroidism. Endocrinology 126(1):325-9, 1990

Matsuo K, Yamashita S, Niwa M, Kurihara M, Harakawa S, Izumi M, Nagataki S, Melmed S Thyroid hormone regulates rat pituitary insulin-like growth factor-I receptors. Endocrinology 126(1):550-4, 1990

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 11 5221-5226, 2003. High Dose Growth Hormone Exerts an Anabolic Effect at Rest and during Exercise in Endurance-Trained Athletes M. L. Healy, J. Gibney, D. L. Russell-Jones, C. Pentecost, P. Croos, P. H. Sönksen and A. M. Umpleby

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9. Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO

Huang, SA. Physiology and pathophysiology of type 3 deiodinase in humans. Thyroid. 2005 Aug;15(8):875-81. Review.

Hernandez. A. Structure and function of the type 3 deiodinase gene.Thyroid. 2005 Aug;15(8):865-74. Review.

F, Rumpler M, Klaushofer K 1994 Thyroid hormones increase insulin-like growth factor mRNA levels in the clonal osteoblastic cell line MC3T3- E1. FEBS Lett 345: 67–70

© 2005 Par Deus Inc. All Rights Reserved. Reprinted with permission. "


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## cybrsage

One thing about MK677 is that the sides from it vary wildly from person to person.  I am fine on 12.5mg a day (half dose - about 2IU a day HGH equivalent) but 25mg puts me to sleep each time it forces the body to create a GH pulse (over a dozen a day - yeah, not good).  I don't get any water bloating at all at either dose, though.

Some people are fine with 25mg, get very little bloating, and no sleepiness.  I envy them.  It also does not matter what brand you are using (unless it is bunk of course), it seems it is just the nature of MK677.


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## Racepicks

I'm tempted to take on MK-677 again.  After reading all the accolades, maybe I didn't give MK-677 a long enough run.  Here is what makes me laugh.  Guys doing logs on products while they are running 4 other things simultaneously..  How the hell do you know what works and what does not?  I'm asking you all for your opinions.  What is the best way to effectively and efficiently test or log a AAS, Peptide or SARM?  Run with TRT dose of Test?  Run with nothing?  Obviously, cutting out HGH.  But what about all the other AAS, Peps, and SARMs?


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## thethinker

Racepicks said:


> I'm tempted to take on MK-677 again.  After reading all the accolades, maybe I didn't give MK-677 a long enough run.  Here is what makes me laugh.  Guys doing logs on products while they are running 4 other things simultaneously..  How the hell do you know what works and what does not?  I'm asking you all for your opinions.  What is the best way to effectively and efficiently test or log a AAS, Peptide or SARM?  Run with TRT dose of Test?  Run with nothing?  Obviously, cutting out HGH.  But what about all the other AAS, Peps, and SARMs?


One of the first things I ever ran was MK. Only MK, was completely natural and training DC style.

Pros: Helped with recovery, aided joints for hard training, good appetite, and slept great.

Cons: ZERO muscle gain from MK alone. Just like GH alone won't do much for a person. I was able to train better, and eat better which translated to more growth but when I came completely off MK, you could see I gained as much as I would have if I didn't use MK. Even got a little fatter from eating too much [emoji39] 

And I ran MK for 12 straight months, 20- 25 mgs per day.

With AAS, MK is good addition but no magic. Just like GH, good but nothing magical. In fact even AAS wasn't magical. It was a balance of variables like training, diet, drugs and rest that gave me the desired results.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## pesty4077

Racepicks said:


> I'm tempted to take on MK-677 again.  After reading all the accolades, maybe I didn't give MK-677 a long enough run.  Here is what makes me laugh.  Guys doing logs on products while they are running 4 other things simultaneously..  How the hell do you know what works and what does not?  I'm asking you all for your opinions.  What is the best way to effectively and efficiently test or log a AAS, Peptide or SARM?  Run with TRT dose of Test?  Run with nothing?  Obviously, cutting out HGH.  But what about all the other AAS, Peps, and SARMs?



IMO, just take HRT test with MK-677. This way you will see how it works for you. I agree, so many take so many different things, how can they determine how effective one thing is? I might give it a shot again too, but I am going to follow B-Boy's advice and do around 12.5 MG for a while before trying to bump up. See if that is better on my system.


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## K1

Bump...I'm liking this thread!


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## j2048b

pesty4077 said:


> IMO, just take HRT test with MK-677. This way you will see how it works for you. I agree, so many take so many different things, how can they determine how effective one thing is? I might give it a shot again too, but I am going to follow B-Boy's advice and do around 12.5 MG for a while before trying to bump up. See if that is better on my system.


Would low dose gh and mk work against each other or help in releasing gh in different ways be beneficial?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## b-boy

j2048b said:


> Would low dose gh and mk work against each other or help in releasing gh in different ways be beneficial?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


my guess would be that it wouldn't give you anymore benefit as the exogenous would either lower you own gh's peak levels or the increase in somastatin (spelling) would take away from overall GH effect..

just my guess though, but I don't really see anybenfit in combining the two, just increase dosage of either or that your using.


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## RamboStallone

j2048b said:


> Would low dose gh and mk work against each other or help in releasing gh in different ways be beneficial?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


No they don't work against each other at all, quite the contrary. The combination of exogenous HGH and HGH secretagogues is synergistic. Many have added MK677/gh peptides to their GH protocol and lowered their exogenous GH dose. I like to combine 3iu of gh a day with gh peptides. For bulking I add MK677 because it gives me the hunger and water retention for growth. For cutting hexarelin, ipamorelin, and a ghrh does the job since they don't increase hunger.


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## Jim550

How much T4 is recommended to run while taking GH?


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## pesty4077

Jim550 said:


> How much T4 is recommended to run while taking GH?



That would depend on blood work and how much GH you are taking. At 2 IUs, I say you probably wouldn't need it. At 5 IUs I take 100 MCG per day. Seems to keep my blood work in check at that.


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## Racepicks

Here is my guess, and I have no studies to back it up.  Then again, you can probably find a study to back up any opinion if you look hard enough.

My guess is that your bodies own pulse of HGH is miniscule compared to the increase of HGH Serum Levels induced by either rHGH or MK-677.  Here is the question - Is the HGH produced by your pituitary glands somehow more effective in binding to your receptors than rHGH?  In other words, when people say that they do not want to inject HGH before bed (raising their HGH Serum Levels to 30ng/ml), because it would interfere with their body's natural HGH pulse (raising their HGH serum to 0.5ng/ml).  That makes me think!


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## b-boy

Racepicks said:


> Here is my guess, and I have no studies to back it up.  Then again, you can probably find a study to back up any opinion if you look hard enough.
> 
> My guess is that your bodies own pulse of HGH is miniscule compared to the increase of HGH Serum Levels induced by either rHGH or MK-677.  Here is the question - Is the HGH produced by your pituitary glands somehow more effective in binding to your receptors than rHGH?  In other words, when people say that they do not want to inject HGH before bed (raising their HGH Serum Levels to 30ng/ml), because it would interfere with their body's natural HGH pulse (raising their HGH serum to 0.5ng/ml).  That makes me think!


 I understand exactly what your saying, and one reason I said I like peptides that give a fast hard pulse like your body's own natural GH. when you sleep your gh is NOT a long drawn out rise and pulse  like exogenous and Mk-677 create, I think the long pulse cause more somastatin and down regulation than short hard pulses of GH.


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## pesty4077

b-boy said:


> I understand exactly what your saying, and one reason I said I like peptides that give a fast hard pulse like your body's own natural GH. when you sleep your gh is NOT a long drawn out rise and pulse  like exogenous and Mk-677 create, I think the long pulse cause more somastatin and down regulation than short hard pulses of GH.



I know you shared it before on PM somewhere, but maybe you can share you peptide protocol here. Be interesting and I do know it works, due to you on less AAS doses.


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## Racepicks

b-boy said:


> I understand exactly what your saying, and one reason I said I like peptides that give a fast hard pulse like your body's own natural GH. when you sleep your gh is NOT a long drawn out rise and pulse  like exogenous and Mk-677 create, I think the long pulse cause more somastatin and down regulation than short hard pulses of GH.



Oh...I see what your saying now.  I still wonder though, is that short pulse more effective (I'm guessing it would be) at producing the perfect IGF-1 level that the body can efficiently utilize?  Maybe that is why people raising their IGF-1 level to 600ng/ml may not see the results they may see with 250ng/ml.  At the end of the day, I wonder if we are just wasting HGH on chasing these crazy high IGF-1 levels.


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## gh0st

This is a fantastic read man! So glad to see you posting over here more also.


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## gh0st

cybrsage said:


> It is possible, but most likely they will be simply additive.  I know injecting HGH directly raises your GH level - I mean, duh, right!
> MK677 causes your body to create a dozen or more GH pulses during the day and thereby raises your GH level.
> 
> I suspect they would just be additive, but please give it a shot and let us know!



Stacking the two 25 mgs of MK ED at night and 5iu ED of Quyality chn generics Caused HUGE GH SCORES!!! like some over 65!!! From the few tests i saw it was amazing! GH serum scores double what they usually r sometimes in cases they were trippled! like i seen one which was 78... almost 80!

How do we explain this?


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## gh0st

cybrsage said:


> It is possible, but most likely they will be simply additive.  I know injecting HGH directly raises your GH level - I mean, duh, right!
> MK677 causes your body to create a dozen or more GH pulses during the day and thereby raises your GH level.
> 
> I suspect they would just be additive, but please give it a shot and let us know!



Stacking the two 25 mgs of MK ED at night and 5iu ED of Quality chn generics Caused HUGE GH SCORES!!! like some over 65!!! From the few tests i saw it was amazing! GH serum scores double what they usually r sometimes in cases they were trippled! like i seen one which was 78... almost 80!

How do we explain this?


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## Racepicks

gh0st said:


> Stacking the two 25 mgs of MK ED at night and 5iu ED of Quality chn generics Caused HUGE GH SCORES!!! like some over 65!!! From the few tests i saw it was amazing! GH serum scores double what they usually r sometimes in cases they were trippled! like i seen one which was 78... almost 80!
> 
> How do we explain this?



Let me understand.  What is actually being measured?  HGH Serum Scores?  Injecting HGH IM will have a half life of somewhere around 5.9 hours, which explains why the peak time is somewhere around 2:45.  So the question is, how do you measure Serum scores using oral MK and Intramuscular HGH?  What's the timing to accurately measure an oral and an injectable and come up with an HGH Serum?   Not directed at gh0st, but a question for anyone who may have more knowledge than I do!!


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## Racepicks

*Back to HGH...*



b-boy said:


> ^^^^^totally agree with tenny
> 
> But no one ever said this is a healthy sport at the top of the field, I agree with CG that you can put on an enormous amount of size with this protocol along with some serious pharma gh and pounding EAAS and glutamine with a good diet. Not going to dispute that. But with great rewards comes great risk. Just be safe everyone and I highly suggest buying a blood glucose monitor if you are going to try this.
> 
> Happy growing





Racepicks said:


> BANG....So, b-boy.  You're saying that Pharma HGH is essential?  You cannot get this type of result from Generic HGH?  I'm not disputing, just asking your opinion!





b-boy said:


> With generics you are shooting in the dark with what your getting. pharma your a sniper sure shot.
> 
> Every pro I have talked (top guys) tell me to leave that Chinese trash alone and use pharma. My wife just won't let me throw that much cash into my HOBBY!



OK, so I don't want to hijack CG's "Gift" thread, so I took the liberty of moving b-boy's and my conversation over here on my "My Thoughts" thread.

Where do I start...

First of all, I don't disagree with anything b-boy posted.  If I had the money, I would only use Pharma HGH.  Why take the chance using Chinese generic?  

But for the rest of us....


We have been testing HGH using both Pharma and generic HGH.  Our testing has found that the potency of some generic HGH brands far exceed the strength of Pharma,  In addition, the quality of some generic HGH is just as pure as Pharma,  Most of the others are inferior by only ,03%.

What does this mean?

Most of the respected people in the sport are adamant in the opinion that Pharma is head and shoulders above generic HGH.  That has been their opinion for years, but I believe times have changed.  Unfortunately their opinions are out of date.  That opinion is that of the knowledgeable Trainers, Coaches and Athletes.  The rest are just people who have no idea, but just repeat the party line because they are afraid of getting flamed. 

Let me say one more thing, and I have stated this on many occasions, there may be other factors involved that make Pharma more effective, other than content and quality.  Maybe there are some things (I have mentioned Scott Stevenson's questions about incomplete amino chains that may be instrumental in receptor binding), there could be a million more!  

Finally, my objective of this thread is not to portray myself as an expert, because I am far from that.  My goal is to generate debate and learn, just like y'all!  

I hope I get some responses.


----------



## AGGRO

I'm going to say that the reason you aren't getting any responses is because nobody is knowledgeable enough to debate against your point.  Here is a question, What are the dangers involved in using large doses of HGH?


----------



## Reno 911

I know some guys "swear" by pharmgrade GH but for me I can't really see much difference.  I have used Omnitrope, Genotropin Mini Quicks, and Tev Tropin at up to 6iu/day.  I cannot see a noticeable difference between the physical results and/or the IGF levels on the bloodwork between generic and pharm (as long as it's a good generic- TP's blacks, grey, Kefeis, etc.   

The only thing I can say is there is about 15-20% less hand/finger numbness and tingling at comparable dosages.  






Racepicks said:


> OK, so I don't want to hijack CG's "Gift" thread, so I took the liberty of moving b-boy's and my conversation over here on my "My Thoughts" thread.
> 
> Where do I start...
> 
> First of all, I don't disagree with anything b-boy posted.  If I had the money, I would only use Pharma HGH.  Why take the chance using Chinese generic?
> 
> But for the rest of us....
> 
> 
> We have been testing HGH using both Pharma and generic HGH.  Our testing has found that the potency of some generic HGH brands far exceed the strength of Pharma,  In addition, the quality of some generic HGH is just as pure as Pharma,  Most of the others are inferior by only ,03%.
> 
> What does this mean?
> 
> Most of the respected people in the sport are adamant in the opinion that Pharma is head and shoulders above generic HGH.  That has been their opinion for years, but I believe times have changed.  Unfortunately their opinions are out of date.  That opinion is that of the knowledgeable Trainers, Coaches and Athletes.  The rest are just people who have no idea, but just repeat the party line because they are afraid of getting flamed.
> 
> Let me say one more thing, and I have stated this on many occasions, there may be other factors involved that make Pharma more effective, other than content and quality.  Maybe there are some things (I have mentioned Scott Stevenson's questions about incomplete amino chains that may be instrumental in receptor binding), there could be a million more!
> 
> Finally, my objective of this thread is not to portray myself as an expert, because I am far from that.  My goal is to generate debate and learn, just like y'all!
> 
> I hope I get some responses.


----------



## Racepicks

AGGRO said:


> I'm going to say that the reason you aren't getting any responses is because nobody is knowledgeable enough to debate against your point.  Here is a question, What are the dangers involved in using large doses of HGH?



Obviously, when you hear about people injecting 15-20iu's or more per day, I would be very concerned about Acromegaly.  When you are talking about smaller doses, Diabetes would scare me a little.  I believe, to mitigate the inherent dangers of raising your IGF-1 levels, I would stay at the 2 to 4iu's range.  Again, this is just me stating my opinion. 



Reno 911 said:


> I know some guys "swear" by pharmgrade GH but for me I can't really see much difference.  I have used Omnitrope, Genotropin Mini Quicks, and Tev Tropin at up to 6iu/day.  I cannot see a noticeable difference between the physical results and/or the IGF levels on the bloodwork between generic and pharm (as long as it's a good generic- TP's blacks, grey, Kefeis, etc.
> 
> The only thing I can say is there is about 15-20% less hand/finger numbness and tingling at comparable dosages.



My concern with Pharma HGH from International sources is, Is It Real or Fake.  I had this conversation with The Provider, who believes these products could very well be 100% real.  Because these products are available in Europe over the counter, it is very possible they are not fake.  I still have my doubts.


----------



## j2048b

Racepicks said:


> Obviously, when you hear about people injecting 15-20iu's or more per day, I would be very concerned about Acromegaly.  When you are talking about smaller doses, Diabetes would scare me a little.  I believe, to mitigate the inherent dangers of raising your IGF-1 levels, I would stay at the 2 to 4iu's range.  Again, this is just me stating my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> My concern with Pharma HGH from International sources is, Is It Real or Fake.  I had this conversation with The Provider, who believes these products could very well be 100% real.  Because these products are available in Europe over the counter, it is very possible they are not fake.  I still have my doubts.


Yes thats the issue id see, if they look like genos etc....but ur getting them real cheap? How? Doesnt make sense to me, but they could be reall, who really knows? I guess we take a chance every time we use it, but yeah makes me wonder if anyone has seen how a pharm grade gh is made beginning to the end? And compared to generics? Chemicals used etc

I did read someone where someone had a geno gh made for the clicker and it stated not to add back water as ut had its own solution to mix with, i mean hell it could be a peptide ur mixing something with and u have no idea....

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Racepicks

OK, so here's a thought!

Maybe we have been looking at this all wrong!  With our penchant for believing that "If a little is good, more is better", what makes us believe that using 10iu's of HGH is better than using 4iu's?  I mean, what if by injecting 10iu's we are raising our IGF-1 levels to a point that our receptors shut down completely, meaning no results....period?  Maybe HGH is only effective for kids who have not fully developed.  Once you get past puberty, maybe it is a total waste of time and money?  Again, I have no studies to back any of these points up.  I'm just attempting to get this discussion progressing to make people think.


----------



## odin

I don't know, Man  You may be stretching it a bit.  Thousands of people have said HGH is a wonder drug, the fountain of youth.  Now your saying it is not.


----------



## AGGRO

odin said:


> I don't know, Man  You may be stretching it a bit.  Thousands of people have said HGH is a wonder drug, the fountain of youth.  Now your saying it is not.



LOL  That is the point odin.  I think he doesn't know either.  Racepiks is just saying to think different then the 1000 people.  Try using your own mind instead of letting other people tell you what to think,


----------



## Racepicks

Exactly....I'm not saying that HGH is not a powerful tool.  I just wonder where the benefit is.  *Is it Hyperplasia?*  Man, I want to believe it is!  But I'm just not sure.  *Is It how it aids in recovery?* More than likely it benefits recovery after workouts, as well as rehabbing after injuries, but are we sure?  *Do we need U.S. Pharma HGH for any benefit?*  I doubt it, but do we really know?  I have said it in the past and maybe I can articulate it better today.

I did not create this thread to promote myself as an expert.  Nor do I think I am more knowledgeable than anyone else on the forum.  I am only looking for other opinions.  I have been lucky enough to test for the community and I thank you all for the opportunity.  Ask any question, there is no such thing as a stupid question.  Nobody will get flamed!


----------



## Reno 911

Good point.  I often ponder if it's "worth" it.  I can afford it so I use it.  Even with pharm grade it's never been a game changer for me.  I've also gone up to 10iu with he old (good) Riptropins and also the Blacks (meditrope).  Nothing magical there either except hands get swollen, numb, and hurt at night.  

I prefer to use 2iu on a cruise and 5-6 while blasting.  At 5-6iu I really don't get any insulin resistance or any sides.  For me, I think the biggest benefit is skin- I look younger than I am and I'm hoping it helps prevent any skin elasticity issues as I get into my 50 and 60's although I know a lot of that is genetic.  

I will say that I do know guys that take large doses (8-10iu) and have got excellent results.  Not so much as far as muscle building but the fat melts right off them.  I don't know anyone personally who has used more than 10iu+.  





Racepicks said:


> Exactly....I'm not saying that HGH is not a powerful tool.  I just wonder where the benefit is.  *Is it Hyperplasia?*  Man, I want to believe it is!  But I'm just not sure.  *Is It how it aids in recovery?* More than likely it benefits recovery after workouts, as well as rehabbing after injuries, but are we sure?  *Do we need U.S. Pharma HGH for any benefit?*  I doubt it, but do we really know?  I have said it in the past and maybe I can articulate it better today.
> 
> I did not create this thread to promote myself as an expert.  Nor do I think I am more knowledgeable than anyone else on the forum.  I am only looking for other opinions.  I have been lucky enough to test for the community and I thank you all for the opportunity.  Ask any question, there is no such thing as a stupid question.  Nobody will get flamed!


----------



## Viking

Makes you wonder what Bader Boodai in Kuwait's Oxygen Gym has the Camel Crew using in regards to HGH (And other chemicals as well)!


----------



## AGGRO

Viking said:


> Makes you wonder what Bader Boodai in Kuwait's Oxygen Gym has the Camel Crew using in regards to HGH (And other chemicals as well)!



Yes, I was thinking the same thing.  All those Middle Eastern guys are freaky big.  Weights are the same wherever you go, but drugs on the other hand...


----------



## odin

AGGRO said:


> LOL  That is the point odin.  I think he doesn't know either.  Racepiks is just saying to think different then the 1000 people.  Try using your own mind instead of letting other people tell you what to think,



Just playing devil's advocate, my friend.  I enjoy these kinds of discussions, although I may not totally accept all the ideas being expressed, it does make you think about all the possibilities.


----------



## AGGRO

Yes, I know what you mean.  Talk about Generic being equal or better than Pharma is a difficult concept to get my arms around.  I guess it's from me being "Old School", but test results are test results.  On the other hand some thinks make perfect sense.  Like HGH causing insulin sensitivity issues because of the elevated IGF-1 levels.  All very interesting.


----------



## Victory

I have a question for you Race.

I followed your testing over on PM.  I thought it was a very effective way to keep up with who had good HGH.  Why did you stop?


----------



## AGGRO

I think they weeded out all the bad product.  It would be good to see it again.  There are a lot of newbie Sponsors who were not around for the first go-around of testing.  I bet he would find more now!


----------



## MR. BMJ

I think the only difference between Pharma and generics is the amount of impurities. The slightly higher impurities give more water retention and BP issues (ie blacks vs grays (or pharma), despite both being real). We have blood work and testing to show that the generics are real, but I think the difference is that, for example, when one is prepping for a contest, those impurities that produce higher water retention are probably not ideal that last month if one is having issues shedding that last bit of water. In this case, they may need to either quit a few weeks earlier, or switch to a HGH with less impurities. When generics were not in the picture, you had competitors swear up and down that one pharm grade HGH was better than another, despite all being real. So the fact that there is discrepancy in the generics vs pharm does not surprise me. MD has stated similar to what I stated above, in regards to the bloat from the generics, despite liking them himself. I think you take away the bloat and you have similar effects as the pharm grade with "less sides" and the fat burning and positive effects are not masked.


----------



## Racepicks

Well, that is probably the most logical comment posted in this thread to date.  Thanks Mr. BMJ.  

To you and the other more advanced members.  Do you experience any noticeable results from HGH other than the fat loss?  it has been written many times about people noticing a "3D" type of look while using HGH.  Maybe fuller muscle bodies?  So, other than the fat loss, what other noticeable effects are achieved with HGH use?


----------



## Racepicks

AGGRO said:


> I think they weeded out all the bad product.  It would be good to see it again.  There are a lot of newbie Sponsors who were not around for the first go-around of testing.  I bet he would find more now!





Victory said:


> I have a question for you Race.
> 
> I followed your testing over on PM.  I thought it was a very effective way to keep up with who had good HGH.  Why did you stop?



Well, AGGRO is correct.  We did feel like we saw a significant improvement in the quality of HGH products available on ProMuscle, so we had to decide whether "The ends justified the means".  Not to mention that the entire process is expensive and time consuming.

That being said, I am thinking about serum testing, maybe a half dozen or so, of the new HGH Sponsors to make certain that their products are up to our standards.


----------



## Victory

That would be awesome race.  How would you do it, asking for donations like you do on the lab testing?


----------



## Racepicks

Victory said:


> That would be awesome race.  How would you do it, asking for donations like you do on the lab testing?



To be honest, I believe that the members are already being asked for donations, and I would rather have them continue to donate to the Lab Testing Project.

I am a firm believer in that the sponsors have very little control over their HGH suppliers.  They purchase X amount of HGH at a set price and take delivery without knowing if it is bunk.

With that being said, I would use the same process I used at ProMuscle.  The Sponsor sends a kit, and I test.


----------



## mytreefiddy

Ive been running TP Blacks for quite some time.... just got my Pro card and ran his Blacks THEE WHOLE WAY and never pulled it out... go look at my pics in the other thread.... dry as shit.... 2.5ius... sold my Genos that I planned on using onmy run for my card but sold em cuz figured "if it aint broke, don't fix it"... not only that.... I look YOUNGER now than I did after doing my 1st show in 2014... I KNOW HGH works..... period.

Oh... AND got 2nd Place in my Pro debut at the Tampa Pro this past weekend...was FULL THEE WHOLE WAY... once my competing days are behind me its TRT Test and 2ius til I die....


----------



## odin

Hey Tree. sorry for not being on top of shit.  What class were you in?  You look amazing!


----------



## Viking

I believe it was Physique.  Whatever, he was a beast!


----------



## Racepicks

Funny, there are a million douche bags on all these forums who don't have Pro Cards and are assholes.  Mytreefitty has always been one of my "Friends" on the boards.  He will always be a humble individual!  I wish him all the luck in the world!


----------



## mytreefiddy

Racepicks said:


> Funny, there are a million douche bags on all these forums who don't have Pro Cards and are assholes.  Mytreefitty has always been one of my "Friends" on the boards.  He will always be a humble individual!  I wish him all the luck in the world!



Thank you hermano..... really appreciate that... I'm more than happy to share my experiences and am willing to help anyone seeking on how to improve... I'll be starting a "Road to my Pro Card" thread once my feet are back on the ground...l these past 4 weeks have been "life changing".. lots going on... but I'm here to stay brothers....

thanks again my friend..


----------



## Racepicks

MR. BMJ said:


> I think the only difference between Pharma and generics is the amount of impurities. The slightly higher impurities give more water retention and BP issues (ie blacks vs grays (or pharma), despite both being real). We have blood work and testing to show that the generics are real, but I think the difference is that, for example, when one is prepping for a contest, those impurities that produce higher water retention are probably not ideal that last month if one is having issues shedding that last bit of water. In this case, they may need to either quit a few weeks earlier, or switch to a HGH with less impurities. When generics were not in the picture, you had competitors swear up and down that one pharm grade HGH was better than another, despite all being real. So the fact that there is discrepancy in the generics vs pharm does not surprise me. MD has stated similar to what I stated above, in regards to the bloat from the generics, despite liking them himself. I think you take away the bloat and you have similar effects as the pharm grade with "less sides" and the fat burning and positive effects are not masked.



I'm going to get Jano over here to expand on Mr. BMJ's post. What better insight than the Lab doing the testing?  The question I will ask him is quite simply, What does he think is the difference between the Pharma and Generic samples we have sent him.  In his mind, is Pharma better than Chinese Generic.


----------



## mytreefiddy

Racepicks said:


> I'm going to get Jano over here to expand on Mr. BMJ's post. What better insight than the Lab doing the testing?  The question I will ask him is quite simply, What does he think is the difference between the Pharma and Generic samples we have sent him.  In his mind, is Pharma better than Chinese Generic.



Better??...probably.... To warrant the difference in cost?? I don't think so...


----------



## janoshik

Racepicks said:


> I'm going to get Jano over here to expand on Mr. BMJ's post. What better insight than the Lab doing the testing?  The question I will ask him is quite simply, What does he think is the difference between the Pharma and Generic samples we have sent him.  In his mind, is Pharma better than Chinese Generic.



Well, it was clearly obvious to me which samples were actual pharma and which were not - the dimer content was by far the lowest with pharma Serostims. 

Also, should it be believed that Riptropins and Grey Tops are (were) indeed manufactured in Chinese pharma factory then it puts the chinese pharma at the pretty much same level of dimer - 0.7%, which seems to be pretty consistent also with other samples I had tested over the time. 


With generics the dimer content is all over the place - up to 50 times that of Sero. 



What might be interesting to everybody here - I've had the pleasure of testing the latest Chinese Pharma and Generic products with improved manufacture process... Long story short, the generics are up on par with Seros and Chinese Pharma beats them! 

I, of course, don't know how old were the Seros that were sent to me, but I don't think that plays a role.


----------



## mytreefiddy

janoshik said:


> What might be interesting to everybody here - I've had the pleasure of testing the latest Chinese Pharma and Generic products with improved manufacture process... Long story short, the generics are up on par with Seros and Chinese Pharma beats them!



That's all I needed to know.....:headbang:


----------



## janoshik

mytreefiddy said:


> That's all I needed to know.....:headbang:



Only some of them and the latest batches tho... I should've made it more clear


----------



## MR. BMJ

Racepicks said:


> Well, that is probably the most logical comment posted in this thread to date.  Thanks Mr. BMJ.
> 
> To you and the other more advanced members.  Do you experience any noticeable results from HGH other than the fat loss?  it has been written many times about people noticing a "3D" type of look while using HGH.  Maybe fuller muscle bodies?  So, other than the fat loss, what other noticeable effects are achieved with HGH use?



Thanks RP, for the kind words. That said, I'm far from an advanced HGH user. I still read up and try to learn just like everybody else. Probably almost everybody here may have used more HGH than I have. The last time I ran HGH was probably in 2008/9. I've only ever used blue tops and kefei's prior to ORD, and then Hyges post-ORD. I've definitely never had the pleasure of using pharm grade, and probably never will

I've known so many people who have used both, and the reactions vary user to user. I kind of chalk it up to a person who does well and bloats on carbs vs. a person who doesn't. It seems that some HGH users just bloat much easier than other users. That said, it depends on other factors like diet, whether at the time they are dieting and less bloated from eating less calories versus bulking and eating a shit ton of calories. The dosage obviously plays a factor too as well. 

I knew a lot of guys who were paying like $400 per kit from a pharmacy here in town back in the 90's, and some got really water retented, and others grew like weeds and had only minimal water retention. Both were the same exact HGH from the same exact pharmacy. I think this same thing also happens with Chinese generics as well, as noted above...and obviously the dimer content that Jano mentioned. 

As for other benefits, I had improved sleeping and rest (though I was sleepy at time during work), improved hair and skin, seemed to be able to eat what I wanted and had less fat gain (especially when taken with anavar or tren), better recovery from workouts, and more specifically to your question....it did give more of a "3-D look" or appearance...or fuller look I guess you could call it. It's hard to described unless you have used it I guess. That being said, I know some monsters who don't think HGH adds anything. I think you really have to look at HGH as long-term for it's most optimal benefits (not saying it doesn't work short-term either). 

Back when I was using generic blue tops prior to ORD, I had a few kits that swole me up and my joints hurt real bad for the first month or two. One kit I had, it swole my feet up almost within days and I could not even fit my shoes on. That was a strong ass kit, but I always wondered if it were the HGH that did it, or if it was somehow real HGH with higher consituents/impurities. I had real HGH that didn't do this, so even for myself, it was always a question I had. Over the many years, and thanks to the testing and lab work, I think a lot of the HGH is real, but the sides most get are from the dimer/impurities. 

That said, I'm open for learning so if others have different ideas, please bring it on


----------



## MR. BMJ

Sorry for the spelling errors, had to speed type that as I am off/on here at work


----------



## AGGRO

Mr. Jano.  So you are saying that SOME Chinese HGH Generics are as good, or better, than the Seros.  

Two questions, are Seros the only Pharma HGH you have tested?  And do you think the dimmers or impurities make a person retain water?


----------



## odin

I think someone else mentioned it, generic will give you the best bang for your buck.  *If you choose the right Generic*.


----------



## SURGE

janoshik said:


> Also, should it be believed that Riptropins and Grey Tops are (were) indeed manufactured in Chinese pharma factory then it puts the chinese pharma at the pretty much same level of dimer - 0.7%, which seems to be pretty consistent also with other samples I had tested over the time.



BINGO!!

I have maintained all along that the BEST "Generic" HGH found it's way out the back door of a Chinese Pharma Facility.


----------



## janoshik

AGGRO said:


> Mr. Jano.  So you are saying that SOME Chinese HGH Generics are as good, or better, than the Seros.
> 
> Two questions, are Seros the only Pharma HGH you have tested?  And do you think the dimmers or impurities make a person retain water?



I've tested Seros and Humatrope. Humatrope being the inferior product, but I can't judge by how much, because in the meantime my methods had changed a little bit. Only products tested under exactly the same conditions should be compared. 

Maybe some other brands as well, but that was long ago therefore, as I had written above, they wouldn't be comparable. 


Regarding the water retention - I honestly have no idea, but it appears that way. Ie products with higher dimer have more trouble with higher water retention.

However, that could be also just a correlation - products with low dimer tend to be manufactured with better quality control and therefore it can be assumed that there might also be some other impurity that was eliminated, that is contained within other products, where the QC is not as meticulous. 


So is it dimer? Is it some impurity in minute amount? Or is it overdosing of vials causing sides? 

Maybe sometime we will find out.


But for our purposes, knowing that there is a correlation between dimer and water retention is enough... for now


----------



## Racepicks

Thanks for your response, Jano!


----------



## Racepicks

I recently posted on ProMuscle that I had an Associates Degree in HGH, and I was going to explain over here on Anasci.  Here is the first installment:

When you apply for a job, they ask if you have certain educational requirements or, "Commensurate Experience".  Well, I do not have an educational background, but I do have experience.  The cynics will say, "Bro, you Serum Tested HGH, PLEASE!".  Yes, but that testing opened the door to conversations with Sponsors that is definitely "commensurate".  I'm going to share some of the things that I have learned.  It opened my eyes.  Obviously, I need to use discretion to protect our Sponsors.  I can not reveal procedures and methods that will put any of us in jeopardy.


----------



## AGGRO

*I would like to see more Pharma HGH tested.  Especially Genos.  Seems to be a ton of those around.  Nordis would be cool too*


----------



## j2048b

So the dimer, is it like d-dimer like what ud test for if u had a blood clot? Or what dimer are we talkin about here? What exactly does the dimer do to u? Cause water retention? Or more?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## janoshik

j2048b said:


> So the dimer, is it like d-dimer like what ud test for if u had a blood clot? Or what dimer are we talkin about here? What exactly does the dimer do to u? Cause water retention? Or more?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



No Sir, totally different chemical. 


Dimer is a generic name for two identical molecules bound together. 

In D-dimer it's two d fragments of fibrin (fibrin is a protein involved in creating blood clots). 

The dimer we are talking about here it is two molecules of HGH bound together. 


The things we know about dimer:
- it has lower activity than normal monomeric HGH
- its levels correlate with quality of the HGH, so less dimer usually means less sides, water retention being among them


----------



## Racepicks

OK....Jano, are you at all familiar with the purification process of HGH?  If so, maybe you can keep me honest.  I have been told that there are multiple steps in the purification process.  I want to say three or four.  Each is more expensive.  It is a fact that most raw producers skip the last two steps to increase their profit,  Obviously, Pharma skips no steps.  Is this something you can expand on?  Would taking these shortcuts increase dimers, etc?


----------



## janoshik

Well, to be honest I'm not entirely sure how HGH is purified on industrial scale. 

I do have a pretty good idea though and can tell how it's done in labs (and the same is imo scaled up for industry). 


1. E.Coli culture is centrifugated in order to concentrate it. 

2. after ecoli cells are concentrated protease inhibitors are added (proteases are enzymes which digest proteins - HGH among them, so you want them inactive. proteases are in every living cells)

3. you subject the ecoli cells to strong ultrasonic pulses, while cooling them (strong ultrasound heats stuff up). this releases the HGH (and everything else) from within the cells

4. you centrifugate the resulting solution in order to remove debris from cells

now these are pretty much impossible to skip and are very inexpensive.




where I think money are being saved (or the know how might be missing) is the following:

5. hplc runs with various techniques

usually it goes like this:

A) affinity chromatography -> without going too much into details, this separates proteins from the rest of the mess (DNA, phopholipids etc)
B) ion-exchange chromatography -> this is cheap technique for separating hgh from the bulk of other proteins from the previous step
C) are other fine-tuning up techniques run afterwards - such as SEC-HPLC, ultrafiltration (dialysis) 

*
now, out of those, it's practically possible to skip only the last step, C, which would result in high DIMER. *
trying to save up time on B is also possible, and could result in higher impurity, but I don't think it's done. 





I've been paid to consult an unnamed factory in china, which wanted to increase the quality of their hormone and had a lot of money to spare (and was not skipping anything) - the main hiccup in their purity was not the purification or manufacture.  

The hardest part, technologically, is the filling up the vials without at least a tiny bit of the hormone aggregating (forming dimers) or degrading (forming impurities).


----------



## AGGRO

I'm really liking this thread, racepicks.  This is the type of stuff that I wanted to see.  Thanks janoshik for the lesson


----------



## Viking

This is not the easiest info to understand.  I do think it is getting easier though.  Can we ask Janoshik questions in this thread?


----------



## Racepicks

Viking said:


> This is not the easiest info to understand.  I do think it is getting easier though.  Can we ask Janoshik questions in this thread?



Ask away, Brother!  I'm sure Jano would be willing to lend his expertise here for the members.


----------



## Racepicks

janoshik said:


> The hardest part, technologically, is the filling up the vials without at least a tiny bit of the hormone aggregating (forming dimers) or degrading (forming impurities).



Expand on this a little, Jano!  is the aggregation being caused by, let's say, less than desirable sanitary conditions, or by the damaging of the hormone in the transfer process, or by the hormone being aggregated by just passing through the air while being transferred?  I suppose this is greatly reduced in Pharmaceutical manufacturing because of the sealed rooms, filtered air, quality control process etc.?


----------



## janoshik

Racepicks said:


> Expand on this a little, Jano!  is the aggregation being caused by, let's say, less than desirable sanitary conditions, or by the damaging of the hormone in the transfer process, or by the hormone being aggregated by just passing through the air while being transferred?  I suppose this is greatly reduced in Pharmaceutical manufacturing because of the sealed rooms, filtered air, quality control process etc.?



It ought to be done under inert conditions, ie. nitrogen atmosphere - which generally can be problematic to achieve, but with high tech facilities it's not that much of an issue as once it's set up properly it's no bother. 

Imo in 'low-end' manufacturers the lack of or insufficient nitrogen atmosphere might be an issue - but that's just guessing now.


Lyophilisation can be a harsh procedure by itself, so even if everything is set up properly individual adjustments must be done, instruments / factory line properly maintained etc.


But the know-how is there, now even with generic factories based in China which are capable of producing HGH on par with US Pharma.


----------



## Racepicks

janoshik said:


> It ought to be done under inert conditions, ie. nitrogen atmosphere - which generally can be problematic to achieve, but with high tech facilities it's not that much of an issue as once it's set up properly it's no bother.
> 
> Imo in 'low-end' manufacturers the lack of or insufficient nitrogen atmosphere might be an issue - but that's just guessing now.
> 
> 
> Lyophilisation can be a harsh procedure by itself, so even if everything is set up properly individual adjustments must be done, instruments / factory line properly maintained etc.
> 
> 
> But the know-how is there, now even with generic factories based in China which are capable of producing HGH on par with US Pharma.



OK, so.  It is my opinion that *Pharma factories* based in China are responsible for producing the high quality "Generic" HGH we have been testing.  I'm thinking that there are a ton of kits that find it's way out the back doors and end up here as the generics that are testing as well (or better) than Pharma.  I know you work with, at least, one factory in China.  Would you agree with my opinion, or am I way off base.


----------



## Viking

Racepicks said:


> Ask away, Brother!  I'm sure Jano would be willing to lend his expertise here for the members.



Awesome, thanks race.  Janoshik, How in the world do the Grey Tops test at 100% purity.  It's just hard to believe that a china hgh is 100% pure.  Any thoughts


----------



## janoshik

Racepicks said:


> OK, so.  It is my opinion that *Pharma factories* based in China are responsible for producing the high quality "Generic" HGH we have been testing.  I'm thinking that there are a ton of kits that find it's way out the back doors and end up here as the generics that are testing as well (or better) than Pharma.  I know you work with, at least, one factory in China.  Would you agree with my opinion, or am I way off base.



I think generic factories, which don't manufacture anything for pharma market, as well, which honestly surprised me too. 

It certainly used to be the case with kits finding their way outta backdoor - but as far as I know - and I certainly don't claim to know everything - at least one factory was forced to stop such endeavors by the authorities and others were warned as well. This makes me think that great majority of high quality HGH is not from this source. But that's just an opinion of mine and I might be wrong.  

There's this one, very consistent generic, that is rumored to be from pharma factory, but I can't tell for sure.


----------



## janoshik

Viking said:


> Awesome, thanks race.  Janoshik, How in the world do the Grey Tops test at 100% purity.  It's just hard to believe that a china hgh is 100% pure.  Any thoughts



They, of course, are not 100% purity - nothing is - but it means that the impurities were below my level of detection. 

Considering the fact that impurities in Seros were not under that level I don't think that it's too much of an issue. 

I could've shot in 10 times the amount of HGH, so every impurity would be there 10 times higher as well and would probably be detected, but I did not see a point in doing that. Also, doing that would make results less reliable for multiple reasons.

I don't think it matters much if they are 99.999 or 100% - the main point of those tests was to compare samples reliably under same conditions and adhere to testing which is done on real pharmaceutical samples. Not find minute impurities at all costs. 





An interesting thing - I've tested another sample that was 100% as well, even when 10 times the usual amount was tested for impurities. So it had contained less than 0.001% of impurities. 

However, the dimer was undetectable with this sample as well, compared to Grey Tops - which had higher dimer than Seros. 

This sample was sent to me as unknown. After I had inquired which pharma it was (because no generic AND pharma I have tested up until then) it was revealed to me it was Chinese pharma.

Just food for thought. 





Oh, also, the Euro Pharma standard I've used for PM.com testing was 100%.


----------



## Viking

janoshik said:


> They, of course, are not 100% purity - nothing is - but it means that the impurities were below my level of detection.
> 
> Considering the fact that impurities in Seros were not under that level I don't think that it's too much of an issue.
> 
> I could've shot in 10 times the amount of HGH, so every impurity would be there 10 times higher as well and would probably be detected, but I did not see a point in doing that. Also, doing that would make results less reliable for multiple reasons.
> 
> I don't think it matters much if they are 99.999 or 100% - the main point of those tests was to compare samples reliably under same conditions and adhere to testing which is done on real pharmaceutical samples. Not find minute impurities at all costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An interesting thing - I've tested another sample that was 100% as well, even when 10 times the usual amount was tested for impurities. So it had contained less than 0.001% of impurities.
> 
> However, the dimer was undetectable with this sample as well, compared to Grey Tops - which had higher dimer than Seros.
> 
> This sample was sent to me as unknown. After I had inquired which pharma it was (because no generic AND pharma I have tested up until then) it was revealed to me it was Chinese pharma.
> 
> Just food for thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, also, the Euro Pharma standard I've used for PM.com testing was 100%.



OK, that makes sense!  Although, a generic with that low of a level of impurities seems counterintuitive to the argument that these generics are not made in a pharma factory.  If a factory is large enough to produce such a pure HGH, wouldn't you think they would be on the authorities radar?  Or is the production of HGH legal in China?


----------



## janoshik

Viking said:


> OK, that makes sense!  Although, a generic with that low of a level of impurities seems counterintuitive to the argument that these generics are not made in a pharma factory.  If a factory is large enough to produce such a pure HGH, wouldn't you think they would be on the authorities radar?  Or is the production of HGH legal in China?



A friend of mine tells me that AAS production is legal in China, so my guess would be that HGH is no issue.


----------



## AnaSCI

janoshik said:


> A friend of mine tells me that AAS production is legal in China, so my guess would be that HGH is no issue.



I believe there are different laws/regulations in China regarding AAS and HGH production. 

I would have to look way back through emails but I believe IP and I spoke of this many years back.


----------



## janoshik

Could be - I'm only guessing there.


----------



## get it in ya

Racepicks said:


> I truly believe people will have their own preference on when and how much to inject.  Then they will try to come up with reasons (or studies, or Bro-science, etc.) to back their decision.  I was guilty of the same thing when I began using HGH years ago.  After spending over $400 dollars for 3 kits, I wanted to take the least amount I could get away with to make it last. I settled on 4iu's per day.  As I mentioned previously, my coach at the time was Alex Azarian (RIP), who advised me to raise my dose to 6iu's per day for maximum results.
> 
> I was listening to a Podcast recently over on Advices Radio called Blood, Sweat & Gear.  It features Scott McNally, Skip Hill and someone who calls himself S2H (apparently his handle on a number of forums).  It was another of those discussions about timing of HGH injections.  S2H mentioned a number of times that he preferred EOD (every other day) injections.  Aside from his feeling that it would help avoid the potential side effects of HGH, his argument was "I don't know, I just think it just works better for me".  So.....
> 
> My opinion is this.  I do not ever remember seeing any package inserts for Pharma HGH advising people to inject EOD.  I have not heard of one instance where a Dr. prescribing HGH to a patient has recommended EOD injections.  So, where do these things come from?
> 
> I usually subscribe to the "Just Get It In Ya" theory.  Whether you are talking about AAS, food, even training.  Just Do IT!  Do you really believe you will get more of a benefit injecting Test E right before training?  (of course, maybe you will if we were talking TNE, but that is a different discussion.)   As far as HGH is concerned, I'm not sure if it is true.  I can be open to the possibility that injecting 2iu's an hour before training and 2iu's an hour after training may yield some benefit.  Adding your 2iu's first thing in the morning pre-cardio, now we may be on to something.   I believe the half-life of HGH is 4 hours.  So, would that make it reasonable to inject 2iu's every 4 hours?  Or is it more realistic to inject the entire 12iu's once per day to mimic the bodies natural pulse?  See where I'm going with this?
> 
> At the end of the day, people will choose what they want to believe, then they will find reasons for their decisions!



"just get it in ya" lol. great thread:headbang:


----------



## kinglewy

AnaSCI said:


> I believe there are different laws/regulations in China regarding AAS and HGH production.
> 
> I would have to look way back through emails but I believe IP and I spoke of this many years back.



I haven't been around as long as a lot of guys but long enough to see a strange trend with the Chinese and gh....anyone else notice how they let a very good generic out for a time and then all of sudden there are "supply" problems and good growth is hard to find? I've watched the scenario play out a few times over. Strange....someone once (cant remember who) on PM speculated that the Chinese government shuts them down periodically when the "Triads" or whatever organized crime outfit doesn't pay the money for them to look the other way.
The blacks are so good right now im just waiting for the eventual supply issues....if I had the funds id stock up.


----------



## Racepicks

I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, the Sponsors marketing HGH have little or no control of their products.  They contact (or are contacted by) a source in China.  They are given a price list of a few different grades of HGH.  This is an example:

(these are not actual prices, tops, or Serums/Purity)

Here is our best price for generic HGH 100iu/kit
$80/kit----Green Tops - 28 - 36ng/ml  99% purity
$70/kit----Yellow Tops - 22 - 28ng/ml  96% purity
$60/kit----Brown Tops - 16 - 22mg/ml  94% purity

An aspiring Sponsor decides he wants to maximize his profit, so he chooses Yellow Tops.  

The above example is the easy part.  The sponsor runs into difficulty when he sends his funds to the Source.  How many kits arrive that is actually as advertised?  How many of the kits are bunk?  Remember, many of these Chinese Sources actually send the product from China to the Sponsor's customers.  The Sponsor never touches the kits and does not realizes his product is bunk (or not as good as he stated).  

*Continued with next post*


----------



## Racepicks

Racepicks said:


> I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, the Sponsors marketing HGH have little or no control of their products.  They contact (or are contacted by) a source in China.  They are given a price list of a few different grades of HGH.  This is an example:
> 
> (these are not actual prices, tops, or Serums/Purity)
> 
> Here is our best price for generic HGH 100iu/kit
> $80/kit----Green Tops - 28 - 36ng/ml  99% purity
> $70/kit----Yellow Tops - 22 - 28ng/ml  96% purity
> $60/kit----Brown Tops - 16 - 22mg/ml  94% purity
> 
> An aspiring Sponsor decides he wants to maximize his profit, so he chooses Yellow Tops.
> 
> The above example is the easy part.  The sponsor runs into difficulty when he sends his funds to the Source.  How many kits arrive that is actually as advertised?  How many of the kits are bunk?  Remember, many of these Chinese Sources actually send the product from China to the Sponsor's customers.  The Sponsor never touches the kits and does not realizes his product is bunk (or not as good as he stated).
> 
> *Continued with next post*




Also, keep in mind that, these Chinese Sources also offer the new Sponsor to "Mix and Match" their HGH order.  As an example, of a Sponsor was to purchase 100 kits, he can request 60 kits of the "Brown Tops", 30 kits of the "Yellow Tops" and 10 kits of the "Green Tops".  This way, each 100iu kit would contain 60iu's of "16 to 22ng/ml" product, 30iu's of "22 to 28ng/ml" product, and 10iu's of "28 to 36ng/ml" product.  Obviously, this is fully understood by a potentially shady Sponsor.

*Continues with next post*


----------



## Racepicks

Racepicks said:


> Also, keep in mind that, these Chinese Sources also offer the new Sponsor to "Mix and Match" their HGH order.  As an example, of a Sponsor was to purchase 100 kits, he can request 60 kits of the "Brown Tops", 30 kits of the "Yellow Tops" and 10 kits of the "Green Tops".  This way, each 100iu kit would contain 60iu's of "16 to 22ng/ml" product, 30iu's of "22 to 28ng/ml" product, and 10iu's of "28 to 36ng/ml" product.  Obviously, this is fully understood by a potentially shady Sponsor.
> 
> *Continues with next post*



Nothing I am posting is "Breaking News", or secret information.  As a matter of fact, I believe the guys who have been around for a while are probably yawning right about now.  That being said, in my 7 years frequenting these boards, I've never seen it posted.  SO...........

Finding a source is not a problem, places like Alibaba and other Chinese internet sites are quite easy to find.  The problem is finding a "GOOD" HGH source.  One of the best HGH sponsors on these boards, who will remain anonymous, had a very good HGH source.  Unfortunately, that source retired, forcing this Sponsor to scramble to locate another source.  Even more unfortunate for him, the new source provided him with shit (No HGH at all).  I and others, serum tested his product at .3ng/ml, which sent his successful business to a screeching halt.  

Finding a good HGH source is not the only headache, far from it, next post I will explain what may be the biggest problem for potential *AND EXISTING* sponsors.

*Continued with next post*


----------



## odin

I've been around for over 10 years and even though I never really thought about it, it does make sense.  Thanks for taking the time racepicks.  I have a question, what do the sponsor gain by giving different strength hgh like you said.  I know to save money but why 60  30  10 iu in 100 iu kit.


----------



## Racepicks

odin said:


> I've been around for over 10 years and even though I never really thought about it, it does make sense.  Thanks for taking the time racepicks.  I have a question, what do the sponsor gain by giving different strength hgh like you said.  I know to save money but why 60  30  10 iu in 100 iu kit.



Keep in mind, what I described is only a theoretical example.  I'm not sure at all that sponsors actually do what I posted but the Chinese sources do offer the option of mixing the quality.  We have discussed over on ProMuscle the possibility of this happening, how else can you explain why some vials serum test high and some test bunk, from the same kit?

Furthermore, if the option to order different quality product does exist, couldn't a sponsor begin by sending his best quality product first?  Let people test, then when he attains a good rep, begin sending a few middle or low end product?


----------



## Racepicks

OK...Why so long to post again???  I had a post all crafted and ready to go.  I had serious reservations about the security, not only the sponsors, but the entire board.  The last thing I want to do is bring any unwanted heat.  So....I will post in the VIP section.  For all of you who want access, SUPPORT this Forum.  Post everyday.  Good quality posts.  PM me about why you feel you are a VIP, and if I agree, I will go to bat for you!  We need the best to be the best!!


----------



## Racepicks

Hard to believe it has been almost 1 year since I posted on this thread.  Looking back to everything that transpired since then, I'm happy to be posting here again.
In any event, here's what I've been thinking:

IS HGH WORTH THE MONEY?

Hmmm, That's a tough one!

Let me start by saying that I have been a huge proponent of HGH since 2009.  I'm beginning to change my views on it's effectiveness.  Before I start, I would like to see where the rest of you fall on this issue.

Do you think HGH is the be all, end all?  Or is it overrated?


----------



## Nattydread

I have never been a big gh guy. But when I’ve used it I have loved it. I’ve ran
Pharma and generic and have been happy with both. To be 100 percent honest I do prefer to use pharma cause I felt it worked better for me. My issue is that for the cost of pharma I would rather go without gh and spend that money elsewhere


----------



## Racepicks

That is an interesting observation, Natty.  I'm not in 100% agreement, but I think you're more right than wrong.  

Look, I came up in this HGH craze back when it was relatively new.  I got caught up in the wave.  GH15 was talking about HGH being the ultimate weapon in your war chest!!  Remember??  He said that the combination of HGH and pineapple would be so powerful that you could actually see the change daily.  All the Trainers were giving it to their Pros and they all believed it was a gamechanger. 

Of course, this would allow all of us to eat what we wanted, take our foot off the gas pedal while training, and win any local competition we chose to enter, right???......Well, NO!

Let me ask you a question.  Why do professional sports athletes use HGH?  For it's medicinal value.  HGH helps with recovery from injury.  Hence, it's anti-aging effect.  I have yet to hear of an athlete point to it's muscle building effect.

For bodybuilding, I firmly believe that the benefit is post-training recovery, as well as it's fat burning abilities.

As far as Generic vs. Pharma, I have never heard any convincing evidence that a lab tested (here on Anasci) Generic is inferior to a Pharma.  All these "folded differently" theories are flawed.  I will be back to expand on my thoughts as they relate to Generic vs. Pharma.

Come on Guys, step up and tell me why I'm wrong!:sniper:


----------



## odin

Racepicks said:


> Hard to believe it has been almost 1 year since I posted on this thread.  Looking back to everything that transpired since then, I'm happy to be posting here again.
> In any event, here's what I've been thinking:
> 
> IS HGH WORTH THE MONEY?
> 
> Hmmm, That's a tough one!
> 
> Let me start by saying that I have been a huge proponent of HGH since 2009.  I'm beginning to change my views on it's effectiveness.  Before I start, I would like to see where the rest of you fall on this issue.
> 
> Do you think HGH is the be all, end all?  Or is it overrated?



A good way of accessing something is using it alone. I have used hgh alone when I came off and it helps but it doesn't give the gains that aas can or anywhere close. So for guys on a budget I think keep it simple. Some test and an oral will change someone much more than hgh and cost a fraction of the price. 

HGH does have it's uses though and for competitors needing that extra edge it is worthwhile. The same for people concerned with injuries, recovery and even aging. It also shines when using aas, slin and consuming high calories and will help with body composition as you grow. So hgh definitely has many uses and I do think if someone is in a comfortable financial position it is worth the cost. 

The other side of the coin is I also see guys using large amounts and they barely change over time and I often think was it worth all that cost. It's the same as anything some guys respond better than others and some make better use of things. The problem with hgh and especially pharm grade it costs so much so I think it's hard to justify the price unless it transforms you or you are that wealthy the cost meaning nothing to you. I have come across young guys struggling financially as they are spending a few $100 on hgh every month and sometimes I think it is a waste. It seems these days it is a must if you want to compete at a high level though.

So to answer your question I think it can be both but it depends who is using it. It's definitely not the be all, end all but it is good when combined with everything else.


----------



## Racepicks

odin said:


> A good way of accessing something is using it alone. I have used hgh alone when I came off and it helps but it doesn't give the gains that aas can or anywhere close. So for guys on a budget I think keep it simple. Some test and an oral will change someone much more than hgh and cost a fraction of the price.
> 
> HGH does have it's uses though and for competitors needing that extra edge it is worthwhile. The same for people concerned with injuries, recovery and even aging. It also shines when using aas, slin and consuming high calories and will help with body composition as you grow. So hgh definitely has many uses and I do think if someone is in a comfortable financial position it is worth the cost.
> 
> The other side of the coin is I also see guys using large amounts and they barely change over time and I often think was it worth all that cost. It's the same as anything some guys respond better than others and some make better use of things. The problem with hgh and especially pharm grade it costs so much so I think it's hard to justify the price unless it transforms you or you are that wealthy the cost meaning nothing to you. I have come across young guys struggling financially as they are spending a few $100 on hgh every month and sometimes I think it is a waste. It seems these days it is a must if you want to compete at a high level though.
> 
> So to answer your question I think it can be both but it depends who is using it. It's definitely not the be all, end all but it is good when combined with everything else.




Yes, well said.  That is pretty much where I fall on the subject.  I wonder how people can tell if the HGH is making a difference when they are using 5 different compounds and a couple of orals.  I believe much of it is psychosomatic.  They so want the HGH to make a difference, their minds begin to play tricks on them.


----------



## Racepicks

Here is an interesting article on Protein Structures and their related Amino Acid Sequences.  

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/protein-structure-14122136

What caught my attention was the Chaperone Protein:


*How Do Proteins Arrive at Their Final Shapes? *

_"In theory, once their constituent amino acids are strung together, proteins attain their final shapes without any energy input. In reality, however, the cytoplasm is a crowded place, filled with many other macromolecules capable of interacting with a partially folded protein. Inappropriate associations with nearby proteins can interfere with proper folding and cause large aggregates of proteins to form in cells. Cells therefore rely on so-called chaperone proteins to prevent these inappropriate associations with unintended folding partners.

Chaperone proteins surround a protein during the folding process, sequestering the protein until folding is complete. For example, in bacteria, multiple molecules of the chaperone GroEL form a hollow chamber around proteins that are in the process of folding. Molecules of a second chaperone, GroES, then form a lid over the chamber. Eukaryotes use different families of chaperone proteins, although they function in similar ways.

Chaperone proteins are abundant in cells. These chaperones use energy from ATP to bind and release polypeptides as they go through the folding process. Chaperones also assist in the refolding of proteins in cells. Folded proteins are actually fragile structures, which can easily denature, or unfold. Although many thousands of bonds hold proteins together, most of the bonds are noncovalent and fairly weak. Even under normal circumstances, a portion of all cellular proteins are unfolded. Increasing body temperature by only a few degrees can significantly increase the rate of unfolding. When this happens, repairing existing proteins using chaperones is much more efficient than synthesizing new ones. Interestingly, cells synthesize additional chaperone proteins in response to "heat shock." "_

I wonder of I can get Jano in here to comment on these "Chaperone Proteins", and if they may negate the ability of an Amino Acid chain to be folded incorrectly.


----------



## j2048b

Racepicks said:


> Yes, well said.  That is pretty much where I fall on the subject.  I wonder how people can tell if the HGH is making a difference when they are using 5 different compounds and a couple of orals.  I believe much of it is psychosomatic.  They so want the HGH to make a difference, their minds begin to play tricks on them.



Well you could "enlist" a few to use hgh by its self.....im off trt, never cycled and if i can i can try some by its self to be a test subject....

Not even sure im gonna go back on trt, im tired of pinning it since the early 2000's anyways....

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## janoshik

I'll reply in relation to HGH:

Chaperones are intracellular proteins - therefore they are located inside of cells. 

When HGH is injected subcutaneously, it gets distributed through the body by blood. The activity of HGH is mediated through HGH receptor on the surface of cells - HGH itself never actually enters the cell, so it doesn't come into contact with chaperones at all.


----------



## MR. BMJ

I could be wrong, but I think of HGH like I do insulin and AAS, there will be those who absolutely respond like crazy to it, a very small group, and others who will fall in between that and those who can't tell if it's working or not. I think most of us fall in the in-between area. I've only used HGH a handful of times, so i'm not that experienced with it myself, but know so many people that have been using it for so long, so that's usually what I go by and compare it to Janos testing. 

I mainly use it (or will use it) for anti-aging purposes, fat burning, and any injury benefits that it may provide. I can't afford large doses, so i'd have to fall in the 1-5iu/d or EOD dosing scheme. I've known guys who noted it's visual effects of making them 'look good' year round, and then after awhile they can't tell any differences....until they come off, and then it becomes apparent to them again. 


Just thinking out loud here while the kids are yelling at me, lol


----------



## Racepicks

MR. BMJ said:


> I could be wrong, but I think of HGH like I do insulin and AAS, there will be those who absolutely respond like crazy to it, a very small group, and others who will fall in between that and those who can't tell if it's working or not. I think most of us fall in the in-between area. I've only used HGH a handful of times, so i'm not that experienced with it myself, but know so many people that have been using it for so long, so that's usually what I go by and compare it to Janos testing.
> 
> I mainly use it (or will use it) for anti-aging purposes, fat burning, and any injury benefits that it may provide. I can't afford large doses, so i'd have to fall in the 1-5iu/d or EOD dosing scheme. I've known guys who noted it's visual effects of making them 'look good' year round, and then after awhile they can't tell any differences....until they come off, and then it becomes apparent to them again.
> 
> 
> Just thinking out loud here while the kids are yelling at me, lol



I'm sure you are correct.  I'm sure there are people who genetically respond to HGH in an immense way, while others are just wasting their time and money.  Don't get me wrong, for anti-aging and injury recovery, it is a valuable resource.  I just don't think all the hoop-la we heard years ago about it's ability to multiply muscle cells (Hyperplasia) has ever been validated.  I just heard Dave Palumbo say a major benefit of HGH is muscle growth.  I'm just not sure I believe it.


----------



## Racepicks

janoshik said:


> I'll reply in relation to HGH:
> 
> Chaperones are intracellular proteins - therefore they are located inside of cells.
> 
> When HGH is injected subcutaneously, it gets distributed through the body by blood. The activity of HGH is mediated through HGH receptor on the surface of cells - HGH itself never actually enters the cell, so it doesn't come into contact with chaperones at all.



Understood :headbang:

I guess my next question would be....what are your thoughts on Pharmaceutical HGH possessing correct Amino Acid chain folds versus "Tested" Chinese generic HGH being folded incorrectly?


----------



## janoshik

Racepicks said:


> Understood :headbang:
> 
> I guess my next question would be....what are your thoughts on Pharmaceutical HGH possessing correct Amino Acid chain folds versus "Tested" Chinese generic HGH being folded incorrectly?



It's not possible in my opinion. HGH doesn't have THAT complicated structure - it basically 'folds itself' as long as it is not in very aggressive environment. And aggressive environment = other, easily detectable changes in the hormone. 

Unfolding is also called denaturation - heat, or SDS ('soap') can cause that. Denatured HGH is not only easy to detect (or rather not detect as HGH), it can be seen by bare eye - cloudy liquid in the vial. 

My opinion is that the major difference between generics and pharmaceutical preparations is the stability (how long it last, dissolved or not) and amount of impurities.


----------



## Racepicks

janoshik said:


> It's not possible in my opinion. HGH doesn't have THAT complicated structure - it basically 'folds itself' as long as it is not in very aggressive environment. And aggressive environment = other, easily detectable changes in the hormone.
> 
> Unfolding is also called denaturation - heat, or SDS ('soap') can cause that. Denatured HGH is not only easy to detect (or rather not detect as HGH), it can be seen by bare eye - cloudy liquid in the vial.
> 
> My opinion is that the major difference between generics and pharmaceutical preparations is the stability (how long it last, dissolved or not) and amount of impurities.



Most people believe that these Amino Chains which are folded incorrectly (Chinese Generic HGH) could result in degenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's or Diabetes.  If I understand your position, because these incorrectly folded chains do not enter the cell, it should not be a concern?  (This is a theoretical question since you do not believe the Amino Chains can be folded incorrectly).

Also, I know what people are thinking, so I'll ask.  Are you insinuating that if you add Biostatic Water to the puck, and the liquid appears cloudy, the HGH has been denatured?


----------



## janoshik

Racepicks said:


> Most people believe that these Amino Chains which are folded incorrectly (Chinese Generic HGH) could result in degenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's or Diabetes.  If I understand your position, because these incorrectly folded chains do not enter the cell, it should not be a concern?  (This is a theoretical question since you do not believe the Amino Chains can be folded incorrectly).
> 
> Also, I know what people are thinking, so I'll ask.  Are you insinuating that if you add Biostatic Water to the puck, and the liquid appears cloudy, the HGH has been denatured?



Well, I'll go by the examples you've provided and provide the simplest reason why is wouldn't be the case:

Alzheimer and Parkinson are diseases of Central Nervous System. Peptide hormones don't pass blood-brain barrier, so it can't be caused by them directly. 

If autoimmune reaction is implied - that's when immune system encounters something it doesn't like and creates antibodies against it. 

Unfortunately those antibodies are not perfect sometimes, so if there's another thing in your body that looks eerily similar to what the antibodies were made to 'fight' they go full on berserk on it as well. 

Now, does HGH, even if it could have been folded wrong look like anything else in Central Nervous System? Not that I'm aware of. 


I could make hundreds of cases more, as I could write pages about patophysiology of Alzheimers disease and Parkisonism, but I don't see a point in writing materials that are incredibly hard to comprehend (mainly due to the fact that I have been studying medicine in different language  ) with little additional benefit to anybody. 




Now, in regard to diabetes - considering the fact that I don't think misfolded HGH exists and the fact that HGH in abundance is known cause of diabetes, it's entirely possible that chinese generic hgh causes it. 


If after adding the sterile water to puck the liquid is cloudy (not foamy, foam, that goes down after a little while is okay) there is something wrong and I'd not use it. There might be other causes of cloudy liquid, but in my opinion denatured HGH is the most likely. 




Some points that might be interesting to you: 
1. injecting denatured hormone does nothing to you at first, it takes time to produce antibodies against it
2. only organ that might be upset by it is kidneys and it would require long time use of HUGE amounts of low quality hormone - the antibodies bound to 'bad' hormone could 'clog' the kidneys. however the amounts and time involved is not likely to ever happen with GH imo. Heavy exercise is much more straining on kidneys than that, imo. 
3. I'm aware of one case of recombinant GH causing autoimmune issue and it was 192aa HGH which is not manufactured for years now. 
4. The majority of autoimmune issues and similar that were reported were from cadaver GH and some seem to persist to present. Obviously that is not applicable to hormone made by recombinant process. 
5. Some issues might be caused by endotoxin that might be present in low quality hormone preparations. These however present themselves rapidly as local reaction (swelling, redness) at point of injection. Local reaction however can also be caused by wrong pH of the preparation (which again, can point to low quality). 


I've actually had a talk with a professor of sports medicine when I was still in med school about this and he had some of the arguments I had debunked here. 

Later on when there was no audience, he even admitted to me being right and that some of the myths are perpetuated in order to discourage people from use of PEDs.


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## janoshik

"were from cadaver GH and some *myths stemming from that* seem to persist to present."


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## BG

VERY good info!!! Thanks a lot


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## striffe

Great read. Thanks for all your thoughts RP and Jano.


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## Racepicks

It's amazing the amount of bullshit associated with our game.  Go to other forums and you keep reading all the perpetual myths that keep getting regurgitated by the uninformed.  That is why, here on Anasci, we ask the questions to get real answers.  I guarantee if members of other forums stop by and read these last few posts, they will immediately call bullshit on it.  That's OK!  They have already expressed doubts about Jano's credentials.  If I was in his shoes, I probably would leave and never look back.  Why subject yourself to the criticism?  The Money from testing?  I'm sure he won't be buying a villa on the French Riviera with the proceeds.  Thanks for your answers, Jano.  Very much an eye opener.


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## janoshik

Thank you Mr. RP, it's always a pleasure with you.


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## Sparkss

janoshik said:


> Now, in regard to diabetes - considering the fact that I don't think misfolded HGH exists and the fact that HGH in abundance is known cause of diabetes, it's entirely possible that chinese generic hgh causes it



New HGH user. I have done as much reading as I could and have heard that before. But I have yet to hear a definition of what constitutes as "abundance", and how much duration of use plays a role as the amount used.

Great thread, fantastic reads.


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## Racepicks

Sparkss said:


> New HGH user. I have done as much reading as I could and have heard that before. But I have yet to hear a definition of what constitutes as "abundance", and how much duration of use plays a role as the amount used.
> 
> Great thread, fantastic reads.



Generally speaking he recommended amount of HGH dose,from my experience, for Bodybuilding purposes is 4 to 6iu's/day.  Of course there are some trainers who do not recommend HGH use at all.  I'll let Jano speak for himself, but I would guess he is talking about 10+iu's as an abundance.


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## Racepicks

Sparkss said:


> New HGH user. I have done as much reading as I could and have heard that before. But I have yet to hear a definition of what constitutes as "abundance", and how much duration of use plays a role as the amount used.
> 
> Great thread, fantastic reads.



Generally speaking the recommended amount of HGH dose, from my experience, for Bodybuilding purposes is 4 to 6iu's/day. Of course there are some trainers who do not recommend HGH use at all. I'll let Jano speak for himself, but I would guess he is talking about 10+iu's as an abundance.


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## Racepicks

Here is another question for Jano (he's going to start charging me pretty soon).

What is your thought on HGH and Hyperplasia.  Science does not seem to be behind the theory.  Although they have seen this phenomenon in lab animals and humans suffering from muscle debilitating diseases, the jury is still out on it's effect on healthy individuals.

Interesting Read...https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439518/


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## janoshik

As far as I am aware, the muscle cell hyperplasia doesn't exist sensu stricto. (muscle cells dividing)

Getting more muscle cells through other means (satellite cells, bonemarrow derived cells)  seems to be extremely minor effect that can't really be exploited for our purposes. 

Otherwise, I assume, it would've have already been used in medicine for various issues, including but not limited to heart attacks... 

And we can safely assume that there's more money in fighting late onset effect of myocardial infarction than bodybuilding.


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## janoshik

Also, would you like hourly rate, or per question?


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## Racepicks

How about I put you on retainer?

I've always believed that injecting HGH intramuscularly, rather than subcutaneously, is more effective.  I feel that injecting into the muscle will rapidly put the HGH into action.  I think your IGF-1 levels would be higher as a result.


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## janoshik

I don't think there's much difference. Subq is generally preferred due to less (minor) side effects.


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## spartan72

Okay here is my two cents. I have run a lot of different cycles over he last 10-15 yes most in the beginning without any gh period, and I had good results with them but the doses were on the high side. Like Test 750-1K and deca 500-750 and then d-bol. So now as I get older I wanted to see if gh would be something good for me. So I started it by itself always the generic never pharm grade. I had good results at 2iu's 5 on and 2 off for 3-6 months. Had good recovery time and had good pumps working out. Then I started back on a trt dose of test at about 100mg per wk with the gh and there was a slight improvement overall. Then I started a mini blast with 480mg per wk test blend, and 240 NPP along with the gh still at 2iu's. I was getting amazing pumps and recovery time was very nice as well. My resting periods between sets was much shorter, and I felt like I was always pumped and my muscle bellies very full. So I said maybe its not from the gh so I stopped it for 3 wks to see if there was any noticeable difference the first couple of weeks then arounf the 3rd week I could tell that my fullness was gone and the pumps were okay but not even close to what they were while on gh. So my conclusion is I can use much less AAS and still get the same results I used to get at much higher AAS usage and I feel a lot healthier. I take my gh first thing in the am when my feet hit the floor and then I do not eat for at least 1.5 hrs or longer.


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## Racepicks

spartan72 said:


> Okay here is my two cents. I have run a lot of different cycles over he last 10-15 yes most in the beginning without any gh period, and I had good results with them but the doses were on the high side. Like Test 750-1K and deca 500-750 and then d-bol. So now as I get older I wanted to see if gh would be something good for me. So I started it by itself always the generic never pharm grade. I had good results at 2iu's 5 on and 2 off for 3-6 months. Had good recovery time and had good pumps working out. Then I started back on a trt dose of test at about 100mg per wk with the gh and there was a slight improvement overall. Then I started a mini blast with 480mg per wk test blend, and 240 NPP along with the gh still at 2iu's. I was getting amazing pumps and recovery time was very nice as well. My resting periods between sets was much shorter, and I felt like I was always pumped and my muscle bellies very full. So I said maybe its not from the gh so I stopped it for 3 wks to see if there was any noticeable difference the first couple of weeks then arounf the 3rd week I could tell that my fullness was gone and the pumps were okay but not even close to what they were while on gh. So my conclusion is I can use much less AAS and still get the same results I used to get at much higher AAS usage and I feel a lot healthier. I take my gh first thing in the am when my feet hit the floor and then I do not eat for at least 1.5 hrs or longer.



I think you're very perceptive, Spartan.  This is truly how I think HGH is supposed to interact with AAS.  Did you try some Slin to try to maximize he synergy of all three compounds?


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## Racepicks

We're going to begin another round of HGH Testing.  I am so skeptical of the amount of new sponsors on ProMuscle.  You know something?  I hope they all test good.  At that point, we will put our testing to bed for a while.  But until we are assured, let's do another round!!!!


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## ketsugo

Great thread , past 12 years I’ve tried pretty much every hgh made . I feel best hgh I ever used was generic in pine green cap in 2009 . I just remember cycling and 2-3 months I looked in mirror and saw this muscular shredded maniac , it was then I decide never to cycle without hgh again . As older guy seeing how without trying too or not on strict diet ( though I eat clean ) fat just melted off me . To me when you cycle AAS , train , eat well - hgh basically turns up the burner


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## Thaistick

ketsugo said:


> Great thread , past 12 years I’ve tried pretty much every hgh made . I feel best hgh I ever used was generic in pine green cap in 2009 . I just remember cycling and 2-3 months I looked in mirror and saw this muscular shredded maniac , it was then I decide never to cycle without hgh again . As older guy seeing how without trying too or not on strict diet ( though I eat clean ) fat just melted off me . To me when you cycle AAS , train , eat well - hgh basically turns up the burner



That's basically what I've experienced as well. As far as the effects. What I like is that it "turns up the heat" on burning fat without actually making me all hot and sweaty like tren or dhb. I love that I'm getting older and stay lean so easily. I'm down to 1.5 iu a day at this point and getting the desired results.


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## ketsugo

Thaistick said:


> That's basically what I've experienced as well. As far as the effects. What I like is that it "turns up the heat" on burning fat without actually making me all hot and sweaty like tren or dhb. I love that I'm getting older and stay lean so easily. I'm down to 1.5 iu a day at this point and getting the desired results.





Absolutely!!! It’s like you do it when not even trying lol yeah low dose works just same as higher. No need for over kill. People think it’s too expensive but use it smart and really no big expense with great return


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## Racepicks

ketsugo said:


> Absolutely!!! It’s like you do it when not even trying lol yeah low dose works just same as higher. No need for over kill. People think it’s too expensive but use it smart and really no big expense with great return



I was a huge proponent of higher dose HGH a few years back.  Of course, if a little was good, a ton more was way better!  I remember years ago, there was a member over on ProMuscle names Buck (no relation to my testing partner, buck1973).  Anyway, Buck experimented with, I believe, 20 or 30 iu's of TP's Riptropins per day.  Anybody else remember that?  He didn't complete the experiment because, if I recall, the lethargy and his BP was getting way up there and a bunch of senior members questioned his mental health.

In any case, I now believe that keeping the dose to around the 6iu threshold may provide the best results.  Fat burning, recovery, etc.

Of course, if you have a differing point of view, post up.:headbang:


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## bob80

Riptropin Log - Professional Muscle


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## Racepicks

bob80 said:


> Riptropin Log - Professional Muscle



Good find, bob80!  That's right, Jesse!  Epic Thread:headbang:


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## ketsugo

I just personally feel hgh is like milk and cereal. You just can’t go without lol. When I first added to my cycle I’ll never again go without and no need for huge doses like you say find your own sweet spot and myself the best hgh in my 18 years of usage was generic . So I absolutely won’t pay outrageous price for pharmacy grade that’s just bullshit . Our community at large has come such a long way past 20 years and forums like here have positive benefits to quality and info . Back then barely any forums . Ironically this is one of the oldest still top of heap


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## bernardt

Racepicks said:


> First and foremost, I am not an authority on HGH.  I am not a Chemist or a Micro-Biologist.  I have had the honor of being allowed to test HGH for the good of our community for a few years.  For that, I would like to thank each and every one of you for your support.  I have read posts on this forum and other forums, as well as Podcasts,  by "experts" on HGH and PED's.  In my opinion, most of these "experts" are just repeating all the "Bro-Science" that has been repeated for years.  Whether it is about "Generic vs. Pharma", dosage. timing, even the advantages of IV vs. IM, vs. SQ.  I will try to cover everything.  Keep in mind, you WILL disagree with some of my opinions.  With that being said, I will not allow flaming on this thread (especially by me, if you disagree).  Let's have fun and learn from each other.  Stay tuned for the first subject, *Pharma vs. Generic HGH*





Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bernardt

That’s great!!!! I always love hearing about HGH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## montego

Being a natural fat body gh is a game changer for me.

As far as generic vs pharm. I've used both for extended periods and, I notice a SLIGHTLY better response to pharm but, not even close to being worth the money. Good generics for myself.


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## ldbruffey

Pretty good article to me gh and slin makes freaks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BigDave

Great thread. Read the whole thing.
I like to read people's actual personal experiences.


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## RamboStallone

I'm using the greytops now at 3.33iu every morning. I basically take a third of the vial. I'm on 250mg test cyp and 250mg deca weekly and it looks and feels like I'm on a lot more since combined with HGH. The fatloss, recovery, and sleep effects on it are the main contributors.


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## *KT*

Just finished reading the entire thread. Alot of great information. I might have to read it all again to retain it. Been researching hgh for a long time now and finally decided to jump in. Mainly for recovery but fatloss will be an added benefit. Cant wait to get started. Got some TP greys on the way. Enjoyed the thread Race!


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## Supermofo

RamboStallone said:


> I'm using the greytops now at 3.33iu every morning. I basically take a third of the vial. I'm on 250mg test cyp and 250mg deca weekly and it looks and feels like I'm on a lot more since combined with HGH. The fatloss, recovery, and sleep effects on it are the main contributors.




Rambo do you get any of the undesirable deca side effects on this cycle? I'm in my forties and have only used trt for many years now but back in the day loved the look and strength deca provided (minus the puffy, drippy nips) but couldn't handle the low libido and the dreaded deca-d... I wish I could safely use it without those sides.


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## RamboStallone

Supermofo said:


> Rambo do you get any of the undesirable deca side effects on this cycle? I'm in my forties and have only used trt for many years now but back in the day loved the look and strength deca provided (minus the puffy, drippy nips) but couldn't handle the low libido and the dreaded deca-d... I wish I could safely use it without those sides.


I use pramipexole brother. Unfortunately deca at any dose seems to eventually cause deca-dick and combined with HGH I've noticed more of a need for a dopamine agonist/prolactin reducer. HGH can also increase prolactin so the two combined is bad news for us more sensitive to the sides. Its actually interesting, at first the deca increases my libido and gives me strong erections but then a couple weeks in and as you the know the exact opposite begins to happen. I won't run the deca long, just a few weeks. I don't care what anyone says about esters, I start seeing the effects within days even with the long esters. A 4-6 week run is typical for me. I say give it a shot at 200-300mg for 4-8 weeks and if there are issues try some pramipexole or cabergoline to mitigate the sides.


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## Supermofo

Thanks for the reply. Do you mind disclosing your prami dose and timing? You look awesome in your ava, keep going and stay healthy bro.


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## RamboStallone

Supermofo said:


> Thanks for the reply. Do you mind disclosing your prami dose and timing? You look awesome in your ava, keep going and stay healthy bro.


I take a 0.25mg tab late evening/prebed, it can cause sleepiness which is why I take it at this time. I have gone up to 1mg in the past, however I always start low at 0.125mg (half a tab) and work up. My first experiences with it I felt very sick when jumping into higher doses right away which is why I start low and work up. I also made the mistake of taking it in the morning once and was sleepy the entire day! So I advise against morning or day time dosing.

Thanks brother. Hope that helps! Let me know if you have additional questions and let us know how it goes if you try it out.


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## Supermofo

Rambo, thank you very much brother! Please have a safe and happy new year!


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## BigDave

I too love deca (my favorite). Great for the joints. I am 50 now and need a little for that. I once took deca (in the late 80's) for one year straight due to knee pain (it makes it literally go away). There was some deca dick for sure and I think the older you get the quicker it kicks in (at least for me). I have some prami on the way because that shit works! There is some rough sides to prami though.....


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## RamboStallone

BigDave said:


> I too love deca (my favorite). Great for the joints. I am 50 now and need a little for that. I once took deca (in the late 80's) for one year straight due to knee pain (it makes it literally go away). There was some deca dick for sure and I think the older you get the quicker it kicks in (at least for me). I have some prami on the way because that shit works! There is some rough sides to prami though.....


Do you feel you are more sensitive in general as you got older? I ask because I actually just realized I was developing gyno on 250mg test and 250mg deca. I have now added 40mg nolvadex to the prami which is helping bring down the gyno. I've ran 3-4x these doses (1g test 600 deca, etc) in the past and never got gyno, crazy. When I did run high doses it was always short term around 6 weeks but now I seem to develop sides from much less even short term. I also feel the gear works better but I always did respond pretty well to low doses (relatively speaking). I was doing 75mg tren and 75mg mast weekly recently (yes weekly, not daily) and was seeing changes daily as if I was running much more and eventually the tren sides crept up. I just find it all interesting that's all.

I'll likely swap the deca for 300mg EQ here shortly. I like deca but don't like this new gyno experience lol.


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## Starlord

Racepicks said:


> Hey Sandpig!  We talked on ProMuscle about World Gym in Providence.  I remember Hank, but what was his Partners name (I can see his face)?  I remember his Son Chris, they also started a fitness equipment company, Big Fitness.  What was his name?


Small world. I hit that gym a few times. Scored my first testc in the parking lot. I bought a big yellow clunky machine from Big F. I think it was the Workbench.


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## ketsugo2

Personally I love HGH and absolutely feel worth it ! In fact generic far I’m concerned just as good . My best gains ever in 20 years was using a generic greenie in 2007 no pharm grade has ever equal it. I won’t cycle without GH. In fact if I had choice for limited compounds I’d use just test and hgh


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## kto

My journey with HGH started about a year ago.  I was always fascinated by the bodybuilders that possessed full muscle bellies, the extreme pumped look. After 15 years of training, DC style training, progressive overload, increasing time under tension, 5x5, so forth and so on,  and 10 years worth of gear usage, I've always opted to stay on the low-dose cycles 250 mg. test, 50-100 mg. of tren per week with orals thrown in occassionally and was never able to achieve the muscle density I aspired to have.  Regardless of force-feeding, multiple cheat meals consisting of AYCE Sushi, BBQ...my weight always halted at 185 on a great day despite eating so much food, I felt like a 9 month term pregnant lady.  I am an ectomorph by nature, and regardless of the caloric intake, training regiment, nap regiment, my weight never surpassed 185 calories tracked...or not.   Like many of you, I've read and researched HGH for hours, weeks at a time.  What is the efficacy of HGH?  Well, the contradicting anecdotal evidence didn't seem to help much.  However, after RE-stumbling onto GH-15's protocal and B-Boy's thread over at Pro-Muscle, I decided to experiment.  I like experiments, why not?  I have a temple to my disposal.  Worse case scenario, I'll burn a huge fucking hole in my wallet.  So here goes:   
First round-Generics at 4IU per day on a 2200 calorie cut diet at 185 lbs.  I kept losing weight everyday.  In fact, I literally shit all my calories out everyday.  By bowel movements were excessive to say the least.  Just when I thought i couldn't poo, went another round, and another..I got leaner and leaner with minimal muscle loss.  This kept on for about 1.5 months.  I ended up at about 177 lbs to my dismay, but looked deceptively larger because of my muscular fullness.  My waiste size went from 31 down to a 29.
Second round-6-10IU's per day.  If there was one thing that I read on the forums that was true was the 3D look.  I increased my caloric intake to about 3k.  I recall one day looking at myself in the gym in the miror, and I thought, "Holy fuck!!"  My shoulders were round, full, chest pumped."  My weight started peaking from about 178 slowly escalating to 184, 185, 188, 189....190.  "I finally did it," I thought to myself.  I reached my hallmark.  Again, what I was eating was nothing out of the ordinary.  My gear was still static.  The only thing I did change was increasing my tren dose to about 100mg EOD.  Now contrary to belief, tren typically makes me pretty shredded over the years.  And this is by no means this is the first time I've ventured to this dosage with tren.  If anything, tren makes it even harder for me to gain weight, so could it be the HGH?
3rd Round...well if 10 IU's brought me up to 190lbs, the next logical step would be to increase my HGH dose to 15 IU per day.  Calorically, I just added an apple fritter, or some time of donut or a cup of ice cream to my dinner in addition to what I consumed previously.  At 15IU's,  again, my weight would almost escalate daily, literally.  Everyday I stepped on the scale, my weight again moved from 190 to 191, 191.7, 191.7, 192.3..........198 (HOLY fuck!), 200, 201, my funding for 15 IU's quickly exhausted.  My weight after about 3 weeks, stopped at 205.  Do I think HGH is worth it?  Heck YES!  Has my skin improved?  Nope.  Do my hands swell?  Yep.  Has my strength increased during this duration of my experiment?  None.  Do my nails grow excessively quick when on GH?  Yes.  Does my hunger increase?  Nope.  Has the GH increased my vascularity?  Yes, very much so in my arms.  Has my head or jaw grown?  Nope.  Has my waste increased in size?  Currently sitting at 200lbs. 31"...not too shabby and getting smaller as I increase my cardio..Do I plan on running another HGH blast?  I don't know.  I think I'll let my body preset at this weight for a bit and build off of this size for awhile.  If anything, it's summer and I plan and getting pretty fucking lean, and then, and maybe then, I'll contemplate on blasting again.  But at age 43, I think my health is paramount at this point hearing about all these deaths..Hope this helps someone in the smallest way and I apologize for the long post...


----------



## kto

*..*

My journey with HGH started about a year ago.  I was always fascinated by the bodybuilders that possessed full muscle bellies, the extreme pumped look. After 15 years of training, DC style training, progressive overload, increasing time under tension, 5x5, so forth and so on,  and 10 years worth of gear usage, I've always opted to stay on the low-dose cycles 250 mg. test, 50-100 mg. of tren per week with orals thrown in occassionally and was never able to achieve the muscle density I aspired to have.  Regardless of force-feeding, multiple cheat meals consisting of AYCE Sushi, BBQ...my weight always halted at 185 on a great day despite eating so much food, I felt like a 9 month term pregnant lady.  I am an ectomorph by nature, and regardless of the caloric intake, training regiment, nap regiment, my weight never surpassed 185 calories tracked...or not.   Like many of you, I've read and researched HGH for hours, weeks at a time.  What is the efficacy of HGH?  Well, the contradicting anecdotal evidence didn't seem to help much.  However, after RE-stumbling onto GH-15's protocal and B-Boy's thread over at Pro-Muscle, I decided to experiment.  I like experiments, why not?  I have a temple to my disposal.  Worse case scenario, I'll burn a huge fucking hole in my wallet.  So here goes:   
First round-Generics at 4IU per day on a 2200 calorie cut diet at 185 lbs.  I kept losing weight everyday.  In fact, I literally shit all my calories out everyday.  By bowel movements were excessive to say the least.  Just when I thought i couldn't poo, went another round, and another..I got leaner and leaner with minimal muscle loss.  This kept on for about 1.5 months.  I ended up at about 177 lbs to my dismay, but looked deceptively larger because of my muscular fullness.  My waiste size went from 31 down to a 29.
Second round-6-10IU's per day.  If there was one thing that I read on the forums that was true was the 3D look.  I increased my caloric intake to about 3k.  I recall one day looking at myself in the gym in the miror, and I thought, "Holy fuck!!"  My shoulders were round, full, chest pumped."  My weight started peaking from about 178 slowly escalating to 184, 185, 188, 189....190.  "I finally did it," I thought to myself.  I reached my hallmark.  Again, what I was eating was nothing out of the ordinary.  My gear was still static.  The only thing I did change was increasing my tren dose to about 100mg EOD.  Now contrary to belief, tren typically makes me pretty shredded over the years.  And this is by no means this is the first time I've ventured to this dosage with tren.  If anything, tren makes it even harder for me to gain weight, so could it be the HGH?
3rd Round...well if 10 IU's brought me up to 190lbs, the next logical step would be to increase my HGH dose to 15 IU per day.  Calorically, I just added an apple fritter, or some time of donut or a cup of ice cream to my dinner in addition to what I consumed previously.  At 15IU's,  again, my weight would almost escalate daily, literally.  Everyday I stepped on the scale, my weight again moved from 190 to 191, 191.7, 191.7, 192.3..........198 (HOLY fuck!), 200, 201, my funding for 15 IU's quickly exhausted.  My weight after about 3 weeks, stopped at 205.  Do I think HGH is worth it?  Heck YES!  Has my skin improved?  Nope.  Do my hands swell?  Yep.  Has my strength increased during this duration of my experiment?  None.  Do my nails grow excessively quick when on GH?  Yes.  Does my hunger increase?  Nope.  Has the GH increased my vascularity?  Yes, very much so in my arms.  Has my head or jaw grown?  Nope.  Has my waste increased in size?  Currently sitting at 200lbs. 31"...not too shabby and getting smaller as I increase my cardio..Do I plan on running another HGH blast?  I don't know.  I think I'll let my body preset at this weight for a bit and build off of this size for awhile.  If anything, it's summer and I plan and getting pretty fucking lean, and then, and maybe then, I'll contemplate on blasting again.  But at age 43, I think my health is paramount at this point hearing about all these deaths..Hope this helps someone in the smallest way and I apologize for the long post...


----------

