# For all the Bill Nye and science lovers out there



## Slate23 (Feb 6, 2014)

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI[/ame]


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Go Ken Ham!!!!!  Bill Nye you suck!


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in the Creator.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Gods response to Bill Nye…..given before he was even born!


3Stand up like a man!
I’ll ask you some questions,
and you give me some answers!”
On the Natural World

4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of my earth?
Tell me, since you’re so informed!
5Who set its measurement? Am I to assume you know?
Who stretched a boundary line over it?
6On what were its bases set?
Who laid its corner stone
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the divine beingsc shouted joyfully?
8“Whod enclosed the sea with limitse
when it gushed out of the womb,
9when I made clouds to be its clothes
and thick darkness its swaddling blanket,
10when I proscribed a boundary for it,
set in place bars and doors for it;
11and said, ‘You may come only this far and no more.
Your majestic waves will stop here.’?
12“Have you ever commanded the morning at any time during your life?f
Do you know where the dawn lives,
13where it seizes the edge of the earth
and shakes the wicked out of it?
14Like clay is molded by a signet ring,
the earth’s hills and valleysg then stand out
like the colors of a garment.
15Then from the wicked their light is withheld
and their upraised arm is broken.
16“Have you been to the source of the sea
and walked about in the recesses of the deepest ocean?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18Do you understand the breadth of the earth?
Tell me, since you know it all!
19“Where is the road to where the light lives?
Or where does the darkness live?
20Can you take it to its homeland,
since you know the path to his house?
21You should know! After all, you had been born back then,
so the number of your days is great!
22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen where the hail is stored,
23which I’ve reserved for the tribulation to come,
for the day of battle and war?
24Where is the lightning diffused
or the east wind scattered around the earth?
25“Who cuts canals for storm floods,
and paths for the lightning and thunder,
26to bring rain upon a land without inhabitants,
a desert in which no human beings live,
27to satisfy a desolate and devastated desert,
causing it to sprout vegetation?
28“Does the rain have a father?
Who fathered the dew?
29Whose womb brings forth the ice?
Who gives birth to frost out of an emptyh sky,
30when water solidifiesi like stone
and the surface of the deepest sea freezes?
On the Heavens

31“Can you bind the chains of Pleiades
or loosen the cords of Orion?
32Can you bring out constellations in their season?
Can you guide the Bear with her cubs?
33Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you regulate their authority over the earth?
34“Can you call out to the clouds,
so that abundant water drenches you?
35Can you command the lightning,
so that it goes forth and calls to you, ‘Look at us!’j
36“Who sets wisdom within you,
or imbues your mind with understanding?
37Who has the wisdom to be able to count the clouds,
or to empty the water jars of heaven,
38when dust dries into a mass
and then breaks apart into clods?
On the Animal World

39“Can you hunt prey for the lioness
to satisfy young lions
40when they crouch in their dens
and lie in ambush in their lairs?
41Who prepares food for the raven,
when its offspring cry out to God
as they wander for lack of food?”


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Haha. These were not the responses I was expecting.  Did you guys even watch the debate?


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Yes


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## basskiller (Feb 7, 2014)

while I don't believe the 4000 year old theory .. 
 I do believe that GOD started it all  many many millions/billions of years ago  

 why can't they both be somewhat right.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Because that would imply death


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Why would that imply death? Even the Catholic Church has said that evolution is a fact. They just say that their God guided the process.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Evolutionist claim man never walked with dinosaurs meaning dinosaurs were extinct before man evolved. In other words dead dinosaurs/animals.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Didn't u watch the whole debate?


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Oh I misunderstood what you were commenting on. I think bass killer was just saying that he didn't think there was a conflict between evolution and his God. And yes I did watch it.


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

The history spoke of in the Bible is of the Israelite people and their relations. I believe the history of ancient Mesopotamia lines up perfectly with the one given in Genesis.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Of course there's a conflict there has to be the differences are like night and day between what Bill Nye says and what Dr Ham says


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

I don't know why I'm arguing for bass killer, but it seems like he doesnt agree with Hamm that the earth is only 4000 years old. But BK still believes that his God is involved somehow. I dont believe that but that seems to be a common argument for a number of Christians. Like Catholics for example.


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## psych (Feb 7, 2014)

Radical evangelical Protestantism does not reflect the majority of Christianity.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

I didn't see any radicalism there just the the age-old Bible


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

psych said:


> Radical evangelical Protestantism does not reflect the majority of Christianity.



A literal translation of the scriptures, the way Christians have believed since the beginning versus the new age, hippie, anything goes, there is no sin or accountability for your actions "Christian." You are right though about the majority of Christianity being this way now. That's just a reflection of how degenerate our society as a whole has become.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Thank you. Now who's the radical.


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

So everything the Bible says it true, no matter what the evidence says? Sounds a little radical to me.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Common sense would say if part of the Bible is wrong then all of it is wrong since it is all tied together or its all correct it cannot be both


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> So everything the Bible says it true, no matter what the evidence says? Sounds a little radical to me.



You got it brutha. We live in radical times. Look around. Do you think things are really getting better? I don't know how old you are, but when I was a kid, things were definitely better. There is a thing called the "end-days." If you are saying that I should only believe part of the Bible, and not the other parts, you are saying God is only half-right. That doesn't jive with me. Remember, our ancestors either believed the whole enchilada or they didn't. There were no exemptions handed out to fit one's lifestyle choices.


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

So do you both believe the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around us instead of the other way around? Because that's what the Bible says.


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## psych (Feb 7, 2014)

dorian777 said:


> A *literal translation* of the scriptures, the way Christians have believed since the beginning versus the new age, hippie, anything goes, there is no sin or accountability for your actions "Christian." You are right though about the majority of Christianity being this way now. That's just a reflection of how degenerate our society as a whole has become.




Not true, Eastern Orthodox and early Church fathers thought Genesis was to extreme to be a literal fact.  Eastern fathers thought Revelations shouldn't be included in the cannon as common people would take it literally.  

Even the Jews as far back as Josephus new that parts of the Torah weren't literal.


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## psych (Feb 7, 2014)

dorian777 said:


> You got it brutha. We live in radical times. Look around. Do you think things are really getting better? I don't know how old you are, but when I was a kid, things were definitely better. There is a thing called the "end-days." If you are saying that I should only believe part of the Bible, and not the other parts, you are saying God is only half-right. That doesn't jive with me. Remember, our ancestors either believed the whole enchilada or they didn't. There were no exemptions handed out to fit one's lifestyle choices.



Yu are right on the moral accountability.  But religious traditions and theology can not be summed up as easy a Western view of an Eastern religion.


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## psych (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> So do you both believe the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around us instead of the other way around? Because that's what the Bible says.



Where does it say the Earth is flat?


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> So do you both believe the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around us instead of the other way around? Because that's what the Bible says.



The earth is actually described as a sphere. I know the Catholic church taught that the earth was flat, but that's not in the Bible. You are simply stating reasons not to believe, probably something you heard some non-believing liberal say. It boils down to this, you either believe or you don't. I do understand your points and science is important, don't get me wrong. But you must understand that the Great Deceiver is at work day and night and he's trying to take as many as he can with him. Thank you as this turned out to be a great debate as well!


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

psych said:


> Yu are right on the moral accountability.  But religious traditions and theology can not be summed up as easy a Western view of an Eastern religion.



How is Christianity an Eastern religion? Israel is very western and at one time all of Europe was heavily Christian. Christianity has never been too successful in the east. Even now, you can be killed in China, Burma, etc. for spreading the gospel.


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## srd1 (Feb 7, 2014)

Biggest issue the bible has is human interpretation both in the writing as well as the comprehension. The bible most of us know and have read out of is the king james version. Its not a complete work of all the scriptures just the ones king james and his councel deemed appropriate to be called " the bible" its very well known that kings, world leaders, extreemists and even " the church" have twisted and skeewed gods word to meet their own needs and desires throughout history as well as present day why do you think there are soooo many different christian religions why do you think the attrocities of the cruesades happened i mean for fuck sakes any kind of war and killing with religion as its cause goes against damn near every religion on the planet and is about as backassward as it gets. Thing about it is that no one on this planet knows for sure thats why we have faith faith in our god.... faith that what we do from day to day is based on our gods design and we are doing as we should and thats all we have brothers like it or dont religion as we know has almost been destroyed by us as people and our interpretation of it.


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Isaiah 11:12, Revelations 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, and Matthew 4:8 all indicate that the people who wrote those books in the Bible believed the earth the be flat. I can also post all of the verses where the Bible says that the sun rotated around the earth if you like. And what verses do you know of Dorian where the bible says the earth was a sphere? And also I believe this is a great debate. Very civil.


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## srd1 (Feb 7, 2014)

Nothing wrong with a little respectfull religious debate expands the mind brothers


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

And Isreal is a country in the Middle East.


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> Isaiah 11:12, Revelations 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, and Matthew 4:8 all indicate that the people who wrote those books in the Bible believed the earth the be flat. I can also post all of the verses where the Bible says that the sun rotated around the earth if you like. And what verses do you know of Dorian where the bible says the earth was a sphere? And also I believe this is a great debate. Very civil.



Isaiah 40:22 God is said to "sit above the circle of the earth." And by the way, I am very thankful for science. The anabolics that flow through my veins can be attributed to science. God provided the raws though.:headbang:


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Holla!!!!!!


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

I didn't know that Earth was a circle? I'm pretty sure it's a sphere. Cookies are circles. O = Circle


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

I didn't know you were 12 years old either


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> And Isreal is a country in the Middle East.



Israel is on the Mediterranean Sea and all the people that live on that sea used to be European/Caucasian including even North Africa.To me, that's Western. I think of Asians when I hear the term Eastern. So I realize that they are lumped in with the Middle East, but I hardly accept that theory.


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> I didn't know that Earth was a circle? I'm pretty sure it's a sphere. Cookies are circles. O = Circle



The Hebrew word for circle is the same as sphere. Google it while you make yourself some cookies. Hey bring me some too! Hope you got chocolate chip.


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Ah. I thought we were going to be civil AM. So since you are Bible literalist do you believe that the sun revolves around the earth? 
And Dorian, I'm just saying Isreal is classified as a middle eastern country. I'm not the one who classified it


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

I was playing. Lol


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> Ah. I thought we were going to be civil AM. So since you are Bible literalist do you believe that the sun revolves around the earth?
> And Dorian, I'm just saying Isreal is classified as a middle eastern country. I'm not the one who classified it



I know bro. No offense meant.


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

I never really wanted to debate religion, the only point I really wanted to make was that its important that people care about science. If everyone believes as Ken Hamm or you guys do about the earth then it's a huge deal. Antibiotics, the dangers of lead, biology and medicine in general all rely in someway on evolution and the actual age of the earth.


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Kenn Ham is an esteemed scientist along with other great scientist like Sir Isaac Newton who were creationist


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Esteemed by Christians not by actual scientists. And Isaac Newton was born way before Darwin and all of the discoveries that have been made the past few hundred years. When 99.9% of all biologists, geologists or whoever is in related fields say evolution is true and that the earth is billions of years old, wouldnt that make you think that they consider Ken Hamm a joke?


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

John Ziegler (inventor of dianabol) gets my vote as the greatest scientist of all time. And the dude that invented breast implants!


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

The real question is if Charles Darwin is correct then that means we should follow the laws of nature and go with the strongest survive meaning I take more tren than you there for you should be about my feet and give me all of your money


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

Haha. That's not really what it means. It means stronger as in more likely to survive to spread your genes. And I don't think tren is good for spreading genes


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Here we go with the literal and the not literal again . now we're back to religion lol


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> Haha. That's not really what it means. It means stronger as in more likely to survive to spread your genes. And I don't think tren is good for spreading genes



Take enough clomid and you'll be spreading your genes all over the place!


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## amateurmale (Feb 7, 2014)

Slate can you tell me who Jesus was?


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## dorian777 (Feb 7, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Slate can you tell me who Jesus was?



This should be interesting. Hint: He's not the guy down at the taco truck.


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## Slate23 (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm not really sure. The historical evidence is a little shaky but he was probably a Jewish minister of some kind.


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## srd1 (Feb 7, 2014)

Oh shit this is gonna get good lol


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Jewish minister that went around telling people he was God Almighty? Sounds like a crazy loon to me .


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## Slate23 (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm not sure he actually said that. The bible says that Jesus claimed he was the son of God but I don't find that a very reliable source.


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Ok so we 're gonna cherry pick what all he said.   Moving on.


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

And by the way the reason he was crucified is because he claimed to be God and the Jewish leaders did not like that


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## dorian777 (Feb 8, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Jewish minister that went around telling people he was God Almighty? Sounds like a crazy loon to me .



It's simple. He was either crazy, a liar, or the Son of God. I will tell you that people will forget about Bill Nye when he leaves this world. Can the same be said for Jesus?


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## Slate23 (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm not cherry picking anything. Jesus didn't write any of the Gospels. Even the authors had never met Jesus. We don't even know who the authors were that wrote them. And there are other options besides liar, crazy or son of god nye could of been a legend. Like a King Arthur or William Wallace type character. Someone who had a legend built around him after he died. You two are taking the Bible as a history book. I don't. There isn't evidence for that.


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Uh oh you're wrong again. Many many books in the Bible were written by people who met Jesus.


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

They were first hand accounts


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Oh and the story of creation was also a first hand account directly from God to  Moses


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## dorian777 (Feb 8, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> I'm not cherry picking anything. Jesus didn't write any of the Gospels. Even the authors had never met Jesus. We don't even know who the authors were that wrote them. And there are other options besides liar, crazy or son of god nye could of been a legend. Like a King Arthur or William Wallace type character. Someone who had a legend built around him after he died. You two are taking the Bible as a history book. I don't. There isn't evidence for that.



Wow, I wonder where all of this questioning of God has come from? In this increasingly secular society, I have seen people have more reverence for Karl Marx than Jesus Christ. You don't need God, all you need is the government to take care of you. To me, the growing hostility towards Christianity tells me everything. Look, I read Origins Of The Species in college, but I don't believe everything in it. You can't convince me that all of this creation was just some accident.


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## Slate23 (Feb 8, 2014)

One at a time guys. Name the books in the bible written by a person who knew Jesus and had a first hand account of his life. 
And Dorian, I never said anything about government handouts or Karl Marx. I just said that if you want me to believe in what you believe then I need evidence. Not faith.


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## dorian777 (Feb 8, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> One at a time guys. Name the books in the bible written by a person who knew Jesus and had a first hand account of his life.
> And Dorian, I never said anything about government handouts or Karl Marx. I just said that if you want me to believe in what you believe then I need evidence. Not faith.



Ok first start with John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. Those are the ones you need to start with. And I didn't mean handouts. Read about Karl Marx and what he believed. I've seen Europe change in my lifetime dramatically, going from Christian to secular. I see the same thing happening here and I credit Karl Marx and liberalism for this change.


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## dorian777 (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm outta here Slate. I gotta get my beauty sleep. I expect you to be fully converted by the morning brutha:headbang:


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## Slate23 (Feb 8, 2014)

All answer you really quick before I hit the sack too. I've read the four Gospels as I have read the whole Bible. Matthew, mark, like and John where written between 60-95AD at the earliest. We do not know who actually wrote them because they never signed there name on them. And none of the authors of the gospels ever say the met Jesus. It's just not in there. It's even interesting how those books have been out together and translated. We don't have the originals of any book in the bible. Not even copies of the originals. We only have copies of the copies of the copies of those copies and on and on. Bart Erhman is a New Test scholar who writes and does speeches about this subject. It's really interesting stuff


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## SoccerDad (Feb 8, 2014)

As far as the Darwinian understanding of evolution, I personally find irreducible complexity as a strong argument against it.

It is my understanding that many evolutionary scientists no longer accept the Darwinian idea as "gospel," but subscribe in some form to spontaneous appearance.


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Soccerdad that is correct. Scientist are now moving to a more agnostic opinion of creation.


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## BigBob (Feb 8, 2014)

There is nothing incompatable about God and Science. God created science.


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## BigBob (Feb 8, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> All answer you really quick before I hit the sack too. I've read the four Gospels as I have read the whole Bible. Matthew, mark, like and John where written between 60-95AD at the earliest. We do not know who actually wrote them because they never signed there name on them. And none of the authors of the gospels ever say the met Jesus. It's just not in there. It's even interesting how those books have been out together and translated. We don't have the originals of any book in the bible. Not even copies of the originals. We only have copies of the copies of the copies of those copies and on and on. Bart Erhman is a New Test scholar who writes and does speeches about this subject. It's really interesting stuff



Eusubius writes a good history of how and who wrote the books. There's lots of evidence that points to the apostles and there followers at the early churches. Writing was very important back then and very difficult. Mostly scribes and scholars wrote. It is very interesting. What I also find interesting is how easily people discount historical documents when they don't fit their agenda. Forget the Bible. I could name a slew of early christian writings people poo poo. I think most people just need to look at that period that theses things were written to understand there full meaning


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Also research the recent discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls. recent meaning in our lifetime


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Specifically the prophecy of Isaiah 53. Scholars of Judaism use to make claim that Isaiah 53 was somehow sneak into the Bible by Christian and that it never existed however it was fully intact when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered


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## BigBob (Feb 8, 2014)

"From the dust of the Earth you were formed" = Evolution?


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## *Bio* (Feb 8, 2014)

dorian777 said:


> Ok first start with John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. Those are the ones you need to start with. And I didn't mean handouts. Read about Karl Marx and what he believed. I've seen Europe change in my lifetime dramatically, going from Christian to secular. I see the same thing happening here and I credit Karl Marx and liberalism for this change.




No disrespect, but do you really think that a couple thousand years ago in the middle east you could find people named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John?


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Lol. Yes but it was spelled differently


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## *Bio* (Feb 8, 2014)

There is more to history than than the bible.  Below are facts relating to deities that are identical to the Jesus deity.  All of which are believed to be mythological and all of which precede Jesus historically.  It's hard to argue with the facts.  I've never wanted to believe one way or another, I just researched both sides and made my decision.  I was never afraid of one over the other.


God-Men Like Jesus

It seems to me like there are an awful lot a Christians out there that seem absolutely positive that Jesus is, of course, unique and the first of his kind. They are unaware that the myth of their Christ is similar to several other god-men myths. Here are some of those other mythical god-men that Jesus, the Christian Messiah, apparently shares roots with. While most Christians are unaware of these god-men, others will deny their existence and say that I (or anyone else who mentions them) is telling a lie. If not that, the devil simply planted the story of Jesus into the minds of people long ago, to lead the astray from the true Christ. 

--------------------------------------

Mithra of Persia Zoroaster/Zarathustra 
From The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S (Adventures Unlimited, 1999) pp 107-123
If you know of more god-men like Jesus that should be on here, go to my contact page and let me know. Thanks.
Attis of Phrygia

--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
--He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
--His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
--His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
--He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
--On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
--He descended into the underworld.
--After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.

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Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified. 

As Walker says, Dionysus was “a prototype of Christ with a cult center at Jerusalem,” where during the 1st century BCE he was worshiped by Jews . . . Dionysus/Bacchus’s symbol was “IHS” or “IES,” which became “Iesus” or “Jesus.” The “IHS” is used to this day in Catholic liturgy and iconography.

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Horus/Osiris of Egypt


In the Egyptian myth, Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable, as in “I and my Father are one.” Concerning Osiris, Walker says:

Of all savior-gods worshiped at the beginning of the Christian era, Osiris may have contributed
more details to the evolving Christ figure than any other. Already very old in Egypt, Osiris was
identified with nearly every other Egyptian god and was on the way to absorbing them all. He
had well over 200 divine names. He was called the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods. 
He was the Resurrection and the Life, the Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god
who “made men and women to be born again.” Budge says, “From first to last, Osiris was to the
Egyptians the god-man who suffered, an died, and rose again, and reigned eternally in heaven. 
They believed that they would inherit eternal life, just as he had done . . .”
Osiris’s coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and
Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’s star in the east, Sirius (Sothis),
significator of his birth . . .
Certainly Osiris was a prototypical Messiah, as well as a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten
in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth.” . . . The cult of Osiris contributed
a number of ideas and phrases to the Bible. The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing
to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the “green pastures” and “still waters” of the
nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul to the body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow
of death (the Tuat). The Lord’s Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen
beginning, “O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.” Amen was also invoked at the end of every
prayer.

As Col. James Chruchward naively exclaims, “The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word.”

Osiris was also the god of the vine and a great travelling teacher who civilized the world. He was the ruler and judge of the dead. In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and “the 72.” Like that of Jesus, Osiris’s resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal. 

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.” As Massey says:

It was the Gnostic art that reproduced the Hathor-Meri and Horus of Egypt as the Virgin
and child-Christ of Rome . . . You poor idiotai, said the Gnostics [to the early Christians],
you have mistaken the mysteries of old for modern history, and accepted literally all that
was only meant mystically.

--------------------------------------

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,” which reveals its relation to “Christ.” Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,” which is the same as the Greek for “Christ” and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.
--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”
--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth.

--------------------------------------


Mithra of Persia

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

--------------------------------------


Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the “Word made flesh.”
--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.


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## *Bio* (Feb 8, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Lol. Yes but it was spelled differently



I know they were anglicanized.  So many versions from many languages.


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## amateurmale (Feb 8, 2014)

Yes bio Satan as many false Messiah's but there can be only one Highlander


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## srd1 (Feb 8, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Also research the recent discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls. recent meaning in our lifetime


Watched a documentary one time about some of the dead sea scrolls scriptures documenting jesus as a boy and a teenager wich i thought was very interesting considering the king james version jesus goes from a divine birth to manhood no in between.


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## Slate23 (Feb 9, 2014)

BigBob said:


> "From the dust of the Earth you were formed" = Evolution?



That's not what scientists mean by evolution. Every living thing evolved from a common ancestor. Evolution starts after the first living organism. Abiogenesis is the science of how a living thing can come from a non living thing.


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## dorian777 (Feb 9, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> That's not what scientists mean by evolution. Every living thing evolved from a common ancestor. Evolution starts after the first living organism. Abiogenesis is the science of how a living thing can come from a non living thing.



Hey, I liked Star Trek III The Search For Spock too, but I didn't know it was based on a true story:action-smiley-030:


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## *Bio* (Feb 9, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Yes bio Satan as many false Messiah's but there can be only one Highlander



Respectfully, the point is that the mythological story above pre-dates the Jesus deity by thousands of years with Horus being the earliest.  This story has been passed down, changing every century or so, and from culture to culture.  There are many more deities than the ones listed above that have many of the same similarities.  Here's some in depth information on Horus...Take the time to read through it!  Was Horus Born on December 25th of a Virgin? | Sun God of Egypt

History also tells us that the 10 commandments were taken from the Egyptian Book of The Dead.  Again, a culture and society that long pre-dates that of the Jesus character and Roman culture.

Then there's the description of Emperor Titus Flavius as written by Josephus.  The sequence of events and locations of Jesus' ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of Emperor Titus Flavius.  You can read more about Josephus here...Josephus on Jesus | Forgery and Fraud? | Flavius Testimonium

What about the comparisons of the Old Testament and the Epic of Gilgamesh?  Again, The Epic of Gilgamesh is much older than the story of the Old Testament.

The Dead Sea Scrolls.  They make no mention of Jesus.


*The Catholic Encyclopedia* refers to a widely circulated remark by Pope Leo X (1513-1521) :

“How much we and our family have profited by the legend of Christ, is sufficiently evident to all ages.”  

Pope Paul III expressed similar sentiments, saying “there were no valid documents to demonstrate the existence of Christ.”

In general, when you look at history, the idea of many gods far out dates the the idea of monotheism.  Early societies thought shooting stars were a god, lightning was a god, fire was a god, and on and on.  The idea of a single god came thousands of years later when it was realized the power, control, and influence religion and the idea of an angry god had over the masses.  The marriage of religion and politics has continued to deceive and rule over the masses using fear as their vehicle of control.  It's not a warm and fuzzy truth but once realized, it helps one take full control of their life and see things for what they really are.


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## dorian777 (Feb 9, 2014)

*Bio* said:


> Respectfully, the point is that the mythological story above pre-dates the Jesus deity by thousands of years with Horus being the earliest.  This story has been passed down, changing every century or so, and from culture to culture.  There are many more deities than the ones listed above that have many of the same similarities.  Here's some in depth information on Horus...Take the time to read through it!  Was Horus Born on December 25th of a Virgin? | Sun God of Egypt
> 
> History also tells us that the 10 commandments were taken from the Egyptian Book of The Dead.  Again, a culture and society that long pre-dates that of the Jesus character and Roman culture.
> 
> ...



So where does morality come from? Are we born with the knowledge of good and evil? What is evil? When Christian missionaries came across savages eating each other, should they have said, "Cool!" or taught them as they did?


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Well looks like you got it all figured out there is no God bummer


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## *Bio* (Feb 9, 2014)

dorian777 said:


> So where does morality come from? Are we born with the knowledge of good and evil? What is evil? When Christian missionaries came across savages eating each other, should they have said, "Cool!" or taught them as they did?



Morality developed in human beings long before religion had taken hold of societies.  If you're referring to Divine Command Theory, there are many immoral acts in the bible but Divine Command Theory makes them okay.  Here's a good read. Religion Morality Identical


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## *Bio* (Feb 9, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Well looks like you got it all figured out there is no God bummer



AM, I'm just posting some facts and being respectful about it.  There's no anger behind any of my posts.  Sadly, your above post shows that you would rather make a snide comment than have a respectful discussion of the facts.  Like I said, I was only interested in the truth when I first started researching both sides.  I believed in God and wondered why others did not.  It was interesting and eye opening journey.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  That's for you decide through your own research of both sides.  Again, I was just respectfully taking part in an interesting discussion.


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## dorian777 (Feb 9, 2014)

*Bio* said:


> Morality developed in human beings long before religion had taken hold of societies.  If you're referring to Divine Command Theory, there are many immoral acts in the bible but Divine Command Theory makes them okay.  Here's a good read. Religion Morality Identical



So you're saying that there really is no such thing as sin, because it's open to individual interpretation. Therefore, what's wrong to one is ok to another. Sounds like chaos to me. The article claims there are hundreds of millions of people with no religion that live moral lives. They have never lied? Never stolen? Never been envious? There has been only one individual that has ever lived that led a perfect life. Jesus Christ.


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Bio I just didn't want to talk about anymore it's already been decided


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## Slate23 (Feb 9, 2014)

Just a civil debate. This is actually the most polite debate on religion ive ever seen. So where do you christians get your morals from?


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## dorian777 (Feb 9, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> Just a civil debate. This is actually the most polite debate on religion ive ever seen. So where do you christians get your morals from?



Well, not from Cromm like Conan, but the real deal...Jesus! You know, it's an individual choice. The Gift is free to receive by everyone. Believe me, I'm by no means "moral" all the time, but I try to be. Yes, this thread has been one of the most entertaining of all time. We should receive some sort of nomination for Thread of the Year or something!


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

The ten commandments cover a lot.  Think about it.


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## Slate23 (Feb 9, 2014)

I 2nd that nomination. The Ten Commandments don't cover rape or slavery. Both ok? The OT seems cool with both. And where did Jesus get his morals from? You admit non Christians can be moral. Where do they get there morals from?


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## *Bio* (Feb 9, 2014)

dorian777 said:


> So you're saying that there really is no such thing as sin, because it's open to individual interpretation. Therefore, what's wrong to one is ok to another. Sounds like chaos to me. The article claims there are hundreds of millions of people with no religion that live moral lives. They have never lied? Never stolen? Never been envious? There has been only one individual that has ever lived that led a perfect life. Jesus Christ.



I don't use the word sin, as it,s an idea born out of religion which to me is base on mythology.  Take some time to look at the topic of religion being or not being necessary for moral behavior.  It's an interesting topic.  Don't be afraid to look at both sides!

Thousands of years before the bible was written and the ten commandments were ever in play, human beings had a sense of right and wrong that like anything else, evolved over time.  Open to re-examination by all.  Many people who don't believe try to live moral lives.  Many Christians who are very outspoken and judgmental are trying to hide an immoral life.

Morality is subjective.  Is killing wrong?  The ten commandments says thou shalt not kill.  That is an absolute statement. There are no footnotes that list exceptions.  If an armed intruder breaks into another persons house to rape and murder, and a member of the household shoots and kills that person, is that ok?  Some will say yes, others will say no.  Some will quote the bible in areas that say to take up a sword, others will quote the ten commandments.  Who's right??  Also, do you think the intruder who broke into the house to do harm doesn't know the difference between right and wrong?  It's not about knowing the difference between right and wrong or moral and immoral, it's about putting it into practice.  That's where one makes their own decision.

To answer your question about millions who do not believe but live moral lives.  When you talk about lying, is there no room for a harmless lie that might spare ones feelings?  To me there is a difference between a lie that is used for selfish, deceptive purposes and one that spares ones emotions.  It could be a friend who's made terrible mistakes in their life and who may be considered a loser in societies eyes.  They come to you depressed and say, "I'm just a loser."  In return, you reply, "no you're not!"  Are you immoral or acting in a sinful manner for trying to comfort someone?

People that try to live life as black or white are living a very shot sighted life!...In my humble opinion.

As for Jesus living a perfect life, I respectfully disagree.  I think Jesus is just a mythological character of the Roman era that has the exact same story that many other deities shared for thousands of years prior.  Just look at the comparisons of deities that I listed earlier, and remember that they all pre-date the Jesus deity.  Those are the deities that shared the exact same story...There are many others that share many similarities.  

Again, I just wanted to know the truth when I began my research.  I wasn't biased to one side or another.  I'm not afraid or conditioned with fear, to look at both sides weigh out the facts.


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## *Bio* (Feb 9, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> The ten commandments cover a lot.  Think about it.



Remember, the ten commandments originated from the Egyptian Book of The Dead thousands of years earlier.


*THE TEN COMMANDMENTS AND THE BOOK OF THE DEAD*

There seems to be a similarity between the moral codes of the ancient Egyptians and the early Israelites. The Ten Commandments given by God to Moses on the top of Mount Sinai are clearly set in an Egyptian tradition and would seem to have common roots with the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Except for the first two commandments, we find the same moral rules in the Hebrew Bible that are also found in the Egyptian hieroglyphic writings. Egyptian religion was a polytheistic belief, and hundreds of gods and goddesses were worshiped in the Nile valley. These deities were believed to manifest themselves in certain images and the artists of that time captured these images in pictures and statues. This was completely forbidden by the Monotheistic God of Moses in the first two of his commandments given in Chapter 20 of the Book of Exodus: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Also, unlike the Israelites, Egyptians believed in a second life after death. They believed that every person has, other than his physical body, a dual spiritual nature, which they called the KA and the BA. They also regarded the name and shadow of a person as living entities, part of the spiritual existence, not just linguistic and natural phenomena. Thus Egyptians regarded death as simply a temporary interruption rather than a complete cessation of life, and believed that after their death, they faced a trial in the underworld before the god Osiris and his forty-two judges in the Hall of Judgment. In the Egyptian culture, eternal life had to be ensured by various means, including the preservation of the physical body through mummification, the provision of funerary equipment, and the presence of magical spells in the tomb to protect the dead person in his journey in the underworld.

Their composition of the texts relating to death and afterlife went back to the Pyramid Texts, the first examples of which were inscribed in the 5th dynasty pyramid of Unas (2375 - 2345 BC) at Saqqara. By the time of the 18th dynasty, about 1500 BC, these spells were copied on rolls of papyrus and placed within the coffins. These rolls have come to be known now as copies of the Book of the Dead. This is, nevertheless, a modern term, as the Egyptians themselves called it "Going Forth by Day."

The Ten Commandments represent God's orders to humans given in the imperative form; the Egyptian texts use this form:


Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shat not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal. 
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Spell 125 of the Book of the Dead, contrary to the Book of Exodus, contains a moral code represented in a form of Negative Confession that the dead person has to recite when he descends to the hall of the Two Truths. He shall say:

Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .


I have not reviled the God. 
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan. 
I have not done what the God abominates . . . 
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer. 
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . . I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste. 
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance. 
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage . . .
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property. I have not blocked the God at his processions.


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## Slate23 (Feb 9, 2014)

Hey Bio. I'm sure we probably agree on a lot of things but a no one wants to read pages of copy and paste stuff from random websites. You are wasting your time. Just keep things short and sweet brother.


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Rape and slavery fall under not stealing. Lol


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Bio, the Israelites believed in the afterlife.

You got to stop making stuff up here man.


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## Phoenixk2 (Feb 9, 2014)

Politics and religion......The 2 things that no one will concede anything on. Everyone is always right and no one is ever wrong.


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Bio I know you're not conditioned or afraid to study the other side instead your condition to question everything search nonstop against the truth and believe in nothing leading a pointless life


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Also you've only quoted like 1 percent of story and prophecies that would qualify one to be the Messiah. Go and research the rest and bring your findings back here.


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## Slate23 (Feb 9, 2014)

Prophecies don't really make one a Messiah. Especially ones open for interpretation or self fulfilled. Lets say I a make a prophecy that Amateur will gain 5 pounds in his next tren cycle and it happens. Does that make me the son of God? I also don't take the Bible as historical fact for accounting for the life of Jesus. And neither do Jews. So I'm sure they would dismiss your prophecy just as have. What about all of the prophencies in the Bible that didn't turn out to happen?


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## *Bio* (Feb 9, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Bio, the Israelites believed in the afterlife.
> 
> You got to stop making stuff up here man.



Your lack of research in this area is your short coming.  Look at the beliefs of the Israelites in comparison of the Egyptians.





amateurmale said:


> Bio I know you're not conditioned or afraid to study the other side instead your condition to question everything search nonstop against the truth and believe in nothing leading a pointless life



I'm willing to believe the facts that are compiled through research.  If the facts weighed heavily on the side of the bible and Jesus, I would be addressing the facts as they pertain to it.  It's just not the case.  I have absolutely no bias...It's strange to me that you can't comprehend that.  

I assure you nothing I've mentioned is made up.  When you decide to abandon blind faith and fear for fact, your eyes will then truly be opened!  What a short sighted comment to say I believe in nothing and lead a pointless life.  Saying that about someone you don't know...It says a lot about you!!  

I'll exit this thread now as you've been unable to have an intelligent conversation/debate.  Instead of a polite conversation, you've chosen snide remarks because you have no answers for the facts I've listed...None!

It's funny that the christian in the conversation is the one who's made snide comments while offering nothing intelligent in return and the atheist (like most) is polite and willing to calmly debate the subject.  Don't be afraid to look at everything!  The truth is only the truth!!


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## amateurmale (Feb 9, 2014)

Are you now making an argument for morals?   Lol.  Sorry man I was just messing with you. Btw u can't accuse me of making snide remarks as if it's a bad thing and turn around and do the same thing. 

I have a problem dealing with people who doubt God or the Bible.  I tend to view them as dumb, ignorant or simply unintelligent and I end up treating them as such.  I have studied deeply for decades all the different aspects and arguments and really there is no argument….only common sense.  However common sense is not so common.   But again my apologies.


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## dorian777 (Feb 10, 2014)

It's funny that the christian in the conversation is the one who's made snide comments while offering nothing intelligent in return and the atheist (like most) is polite and willing to calmly debate the subject.  Don't be afraid to look at everything!  The truth is only the truth!![/QUOTE]

I hope your Maker is as polite with you as you are with us when you meet Him at your judgment. I wonder if there will be a calm debate then? I am aware that documentaries are made all the time to discredit God and His existence. Yes, it is faith, but's it's not blind by any means. I'll take the tried and true any day over what some dude on tv says. It's very clear to me that neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. You can have your monkey-man theory and I'll take Adam ok.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

You know the Bible talks about people who believe there is no God.  Do you know what it says?


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## dorian777 (Feb 10, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> You know the Bible talks about people who believe there is no God.  Do you know what it says?



1COR 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight."


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Psalm 14:1.  http://biblehub.com/psalms/14-1.htm


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## chicken_hawk (Feb 10, 2014)

For those who like a little science with their creation, Ben Steins movies is boring but good.
    

Amazon.com: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed: Ben Stein, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Sternberg, Mark Souder, Nathan Frankowski: Movies & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51hozwvWQkL
http://www.amazon.com/Expelled-Intelligence-Allowed-Ben-Stein/dp/B001BYLFFS



Also, if anyone wants I could explain creation or at least how to understand the genre a bit better than the young earth theory. Yeah, I graduated with a degree in Biblical Theology which I have never put to good use.Never woupd have guessed huh? 
Hawk


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

I've actually seen that movie. And I found it a bit dopey and its definately not science. Lets have a hypothetical really quick. You have an issue with your heart and you went to 1000 cardiologists for their opinion. 999 said you had high blood pressure and the 1 doctor said that you don't have high blood pressure. You are possessed and need an exorcism. Don't you think it would be a bad idea to go with the one doctors opinion? That's the metaphor for actual scientists and creation (or even intelligent design) "scientists".


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

And I think everyone has been very civil with no real "snide" comments. I would just prefer if people didnt copy and paste things from websites. That makes a civil debate turn into a boring debate very quickly. (i could do without posting Bible verses that call non believers evil though)


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Actually it says non believers are evil and believers also still struggle with evil. It doesn't leave anyone out. That's the whole point. If you're offended by somebody calling you evil then you should also be offended when I call you human.


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

It actually is offensive. Because I am a human and I don't consider myself evil. But I would stay on the topic of science and not calling people evil.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Lol. Yes you are. That's a really self righteous statement.


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## Phoe2006 (Feb 10, 2014)




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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

Well then I'm self righteous. If you want to consider yourself an evil person go right ahead. But let's leave the name calling out of this. It doesn't help your arguments.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Its not name calling when u include yourself bro.


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

Ok so you are an idiot because I am too. Bro.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

I've had the thoughts yes.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Good thing someone paid my debt for me.


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## BigBob (Feb 10, 2014)

What about the The Argument of Causation? Every single thing that takes place has a cause. A rock moves because something caused it to move. So if the universe began or started then something caused it. You cant get something from nothing. 


All humans have the capacity to do evil. The word evil can be used in many capacities.


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## BigBob (Feb 10, 2014)

A Good Read by A Scientist.  
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief - Francis S. Collins - Google Books


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## BigBob (Feb 10, 2014)

chicken_hawk said:


> For those who like a little science with their creation, Ben Steins movies is boring but good.Amazon.com: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed: Ben Stein, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Sternberg, Mark Souder, Nathan Frankowski: Movies & TV
> 
> Also, if anyone wants I could explain creation or at least how to understand the genre a bit better than the young earth theory. Yeah, I graduated with a degree in Biblical Theology which I have never put to good use.Never woupd have guessed huh?
> Hawk




I think Science and Creation work very well together....


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

I sat in an hour and a half long presentation yesterday coincidentally by Tom Woodward of the CS Lewis society former atheist turn creationist. his book are outstanding


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

Argument for causation. What caused God? And just because I have the capacity for evil doesn't mean I'm evil. The verse specifically said that people that don't believe in God are evil. I don't agree with that. I find it idiotic. But can we please move on from that? Debating science and creation are much more interesting than name calling.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Slate you have to recognize that you were born evil it is in your nature to do wrong things. Parasite you need other people to teach you what to do and whatnot to do because you are naturally indifferent lee corrupt being is just a fact of life nobody is good 100 percent and if you're not totally good then you are evil. To not be evil is to say that you have never lied stolen cheated had an immoral thought killed been envious or selfish can you say that you've never done that?


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## BigBob (Feb 10, 2014)

We arent really talking about what caused God. And I do not name call I was just trying to make nice over a comment about Evil. 
I think the Problem That People have with the Bible is the interpretation. What things meant long ago and what our understanding of them now is very different.
The Bible is not necessarily a historical document meant to store history. There is much history in there but it was really meant to teach people how and how not to behave. Just like I teach my child on a daily basis how Love and respect others God the Father does the same.  I am not a creationist. I am Catholic and the Catholic Church does not teach conclusively that either one is correct. It actually says that if God decided to use evolution as the way to go then so be it. 
I assume Creationists in this debate believe in the young earth theory. I do not.
What gets me is why non believers even give a rats ass about the whole subject.....


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Bob I think non-believers care because I like believers they want to know where they came from. Its natural. But to say you have an open mind but then not allow any viewpoint from the Bible to be involved in the discussion is closed minded. I don't think sleep is an evil person and the fact that he goes out looking to kill somebody or rape 100 women or something but he is naturally an righteous person just like me. I don't know why he take that so personally it's just a fact for everybody


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Slate no sleep. Lol


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

well the spell check killed that comment I should repost it


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Bob I agree with your statement about the Bible not being a historical documents or a history book. It doesn't even set out to prove God exists it just simply states that he does.


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

The point that you were making with the argument from causation was that everything has a cause. And since the universe began then it must have a cause. That cause is God right? I want to know what caused God. If you give up asking what caused god then you should of just given up on what caused the universe. 
The word evil is a loaded word. Most people wouldn't say someone that lies or cheated is Evil. They say murderers are evil. And I disregard your arguments from the bible because I don't believe the bible to be a great source of knowledge about our natural world. Just the same way you would disregard my arguments if I made them from the Koran or whatever scientologists read. 
And i care about people understanding science. If everyone believed as AM believes about science we wouldn't have all of the great advances we have now. It's not just about evolution and the age of the earth ( even though those are important). Johovahs witnesses believe blood transfusion is a sin. What if everyone believed that? Think of all the lives tossed away by silly beliefs.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

How do you know what I believe about science?


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Slate I think you would have a better argument if you argued the cruelty of God instead of whether or not he exists


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

You said that you don't believe in evolution and you think the earth is 4000 years old but then you also agree with Intelligent Design (which doesn't agree with the 4000 yr estimate). That tells me a lot about how you approach science. And I'm not trying to disprove god. It's impossible to disprove a negative. I'm just trying to show how the arguments for god are unscientific and pretty lame to be honest. I've heard all of these arguments before. They are just as bad as the rest of the apologists arguments.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

When did I state that I believe the earth is 4000 years old?


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

You certainly implied that you agreed with Ken Hamm and the "age old bible". If you don't believe that then how old do you think the earth is and do you think life forms evolved?


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Oh so you admit that you made that up?  If you want to have a good debate you should not make up things that the opposing side supposedly said. As far as the age of the earth, both evolution and creation have holes in their theories. both require faith to fill in those holes. The difference between me and you is my Faith is put toward a creator while your faith is put in chance or coincidence. Am I correct?


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

What did I make up? You implied that you agreed with ken Hamm. And no there aren't holes in evolution and creation is not a scientific theory. I don't believe things based on faith. I believe things based on evidence. And just by saying chance or coincidence just shows me that you don't know anything about evolution. Natural selection is the exact opposite of chance. You never answered my question. How old do you think the age of the earth is? You said you spent "decades" doing research. I would think you would have an answer by now.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Who says creation is not a scientific theory and that evolution is? Oh wait let me guess.....evolutionist lol


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

Oh and I don't know how old the earth is. Nobody does.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

I also believe things based on fact it's way too much to type here and we're not doing the copying and pasting thing


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

Biology, geology, embryology, genetics, astrology, DNA, fossils. Those are the things that support evolution and the age of the earth. You have a book that supports creation. Don't say that we both require faith in what we believe.


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

The earth is 4.5 billion years. And we know that by actual science and research and hard work. Evolution is a theory because massive amounts of evidence supports it and nothing discredits it. Evolution is testable, falsifiable, it makes predictions. Creations (and ID) fails on every level.


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

Since you don't is the reason why I say you don't know about science. I mean no offense.


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

So you're saying there's no holes in evolution? I say there's holes in both creationism and evolution. If you say there's no holes in evolution then you are saying that evolution is a perfect theory iff that is what you're saying then there is no longer any need to debate someone like you who is so close minded


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## amateurmale (Feb 10, 2014)

And don't tell me I don't know about science taken countless science classes taught both by creationist and evolutionist. You mean no offense? You talk like you know my life or something? The real question is why you are so concerned about it. If I'm wrong then I will simply die and cease to exist like you believe so what's the big deal?


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## Slate23 (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't know your life. I only know how you talk about science on here. And you just don't seem to understand it very well. Of course there are some things about how we evolved that we don't have answers too. There are things about gravity that we don't understand but that doesn't mean we should go around not believing in gravity or saying that the Theory of Gravity has holes in it. And I don't really care if you are scientifically literate or ignorant. But I care about future generations understanding science. Because science improves our way of life. Wouldn't you agree?


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Who cares a future generations understand it? Especially if you just die and go off into nothingness. it boggles my mind why you care about it so much. Just let the super intelligent who believe in God have bliss in their ignorance lol


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

Well I have children that will benefit from advances in science. And I'm relatively young, so I should be be able to enjoy them also. The process that we use to create antibiotics is based on evolution. Lab testing for medicines, nuclear medicine, the fact that we don't poison ourselves with lead nowadays are based on evolution and how we know the age of the earth. Those are important wouldn't you agree?


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

No its totally pointless you're going to die anyways who cares? Oh and make sure you teach your kids that there is no God and still think that you're not evil.  The pride and self righteousness in man has no limits.


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## rangerjockey (Feb 11, 2014)

Big bang theory.  that giant flash or should I say massive explosion..... which is proven by the way.   the start of our planet.  ..... religious folks say that massive explosion/spark what ever you what to call it... "is" god.  Others will say it was merely chemistry on a massive scale and here we are +or - a few million years.  

you decide,,, as for me both thoughts are right.  If you are comfortable with one or other then you are right.  

we all love body building...that's our common denominator.


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

Why buy a car if its just going to die someday? That makes sense. And I'll teach my kids to believe in things based on evidence. Not magic. And I won't be telling my children that they are evil. That would be horrible. Is that what you are going to tell your children? Make sure you save up for therapy for them.


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## rangerjockey (Feb 11, 2014)

Kids become adults. when they are grown they decide for themselves even if they grow up in a religious or non religious home.  Like I have said, if you feel comfortable with your decision then that is your path.  I personally have a deal with our maker if there is one....when I pass  and go to where ever im going to go, or not. I will have that discussion when I get there, at least I will have massive arms for those single angles. LOL


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## chicken_hawk (Feb 11, 2014)

Clearly you are all educated men. I respect that, but holding fast to evolution, big bang and carbon dating as science is like saying the answer to our countries problems is socialism. It's crap taught to people as science, and then people who like the concept of no God tend to cling to it.But, your entitled to your opinion and to teach your loved ones what you believe to be true. I respect that right.

Illustration: Say one was trying to prove I did not love my wife and followed me around for a few weeks without my knowing. Could they possibly present a case that I do not if they only reported some of what they observed, like me going into a pretty women's house or sending flowers that my wife never received. I imagine you could pile up a bunch of evidence to support your theory. But what happens when you report all the facts objectively? Everything looks different...the pretty lady turned out to be a customer as I am a contractor and it happens that my mom's birthday is in February. So, it's easy to stack the deck if you ignore the whole. And yeah, both sides can be guilty.

I never get heated up or get tied up long in these debates as I have read the science and seen the facts...the majority of which point to a God. So, my faith is not offended enough to defend what I believe...it defends itself.

Anyway, sorry about the tangent here is a brief explanation of Genesis 1:1 using a literal literary interpretation. And why I don't accept the young earth theory (which while well intended is driving to drive a round peg into a square hole) or the 400 million billion zillion (carbon dating is shit over 20K).

Anyway to interpret and piece of literature you need to consider the genre, context, audience and purpose. So, while I will skip all that I will summarize by saying the Bible is not a encyclopedia or biography...rather it is a story. A story that is real, but using the language, stories and imagery of the day.

*In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.*

Not very sciencey ehh? So, the picture is not off nothingness rather chaos, water and the deep are images of something uncontrollable by man.You see the same imagery in Revelation when God sets up his throne over a sea of glass (chaos and disorder has been conquered)   Also notice, God's first command was let there be light, not let there be earth. Then God goes on to rearrange the earths form. Likely, this is when the dinosaurs make their exit and well the time of man begins. Am I ruling out a meteor...no, heck God can do as He wants.

Do, I know how old the materials of earth are...heck no, but does science discredit the Bible...I think not.

However, that is my 2cc's and now I exit the debate.

Later and much respect,
Hawk


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## Marshall (Feb 11, 2014)

These debates always get a little heated and worked up, I like it. But bottom line is it's all about faith. Religion or not, you have faith and conviction in what you believe because NO ONE knows the mystery of why we're here or how we got here.


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

I have great respect for everyone here. Especially you Hawk. But to say that evolution, carbon dating, and the Big Bang is crap science is like saying that geology, astronomy, physics (I can go on and on) is crap science). The evidence for all of these things are overwhelming. There has never been a found fossil that was in the wrong place in the time sequence. That would disprove evolution. DNA confirms common ancestry. We find fossils based on predictions from evolution. If this was "crap science" then why don't scientist come coward and get their Nobel Prize? About half of all scientists in related fields are Christian and the vast majority of them agree with Darwin and not with you. Why would they do that? The Catholic Church, which has every reason to deny evolution, has said that evolution is a fact. The Big Bang Theory was discovered by a Catholic Priest for goodness sakes. Doesn't that say something to you?


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

And Marshal, I love debates too. Especially civil ones like this one. But once again, I don't have faith in anything. Faith means belief in something without evidence or with contradicting evidence. I don't have that. I have evidence for how humans are on this planet. Lots of it. So I don't know how you can call that faith.


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## SoccerDad (Feb 11, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> I have great respect for everyone here. Especially you Hawk. But to say that evolution, carbon dating, and the Big Bang is crap science is like saying that geology, astronomy, physics (I can go on and on) is crap science). The evidence for all of these things are overwhelming. There has never been a found fossil that was in the wrong place in the time sequence. That would disprove evolution. DNA confirms common ancestry. We find fossils based on predictions from evolution. If this was "crap science" then why don't scientist come coward and get their Nobel Prize? About half of all scientists in related fields are Christian and the vast majority of them agree with Darwin and not with you. Why would they do that? The Catholic Church, which has every reason to deny evolution, has said that evolution is a fact. The Big Bang Theory was discovered by a Catholic Priest for goodness sakes. Doesn't that say something to you?



You keep arguing by appeal to authority and ad hominem attacks.

There is not overwhelming evidence for evolution, carbon dating and the Big Bang.  They are theories that were the best estimates at the time -- not so much with carbon dating, that is a technique, but it has flaws.  There are agonistic and/or atheistic scientists who do not subscribe to the Darwinian version of evolution and others who do not subscribe to the Big Bang.  

Just because Creationism in whatever form may not be accurate does not then mean that  Darwinism is accurate.  You acknowledge that science "evolves" as knowledge is gained.  The theory of the atom that my sons learned is different from the one I was taught.

It is hypothesized that a "God" particle exists.  They are looking for it.  If they do not find it with current technology, does that mean that it does not exist?  Perhaps a 100 years from now, the technology will allow it to be found, maybe it will be exactly as the current models predict, maybe it will be different, perhaps it will be proven that it does not exist.

Earlier you argued that chance is not what drives evolution, but chance is exactly what is argued for the serendipitous mix of non living things and energy that resulted in life appearing.  When did chance get ousted by order?  Also, if entropy is true, how do we account for the order we observe?

The point is we cannot state as fact that which we do not really know.  Science continues to unravel the mystery, but our knowledge is far from complete.


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## BigBob (Feb 11, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> I have great respect for everyone here. Especially you Hawk. But to say that evolution, carbon dating, and the Big Bang is crap science is like saying that geology, astronomy, physics (I can go on and on) is crap science). The evidence for all of these things are overwhelming. There has never been a found fossil that was in the wrong place in the time sequence. That would disprove evolution. DNA confirms common ancestry. We find fossils based on predictions from evolution. If this was "crap science" then why don't scientist come coward and get their Nobel Prize? About half of all scientists in related fields are Christian and the vast majority of them agree with Darwin and not with you. Why would they do that? The Catholic Church, which has every reason to deny evolution, has said that evolution is a fact. The Big Bang Theory was discovered by a Catholic Priest for goodness sakes. Doesn't that say something to you?



You Are correct about the Big bang theory. However the Church does not teach conclusively that Evolution is a FACT. It is open to more study on the matter.
What it does tell me Slate is that Christianity does love  its Science!
Peace my Brotha's!


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

Ad hominem attacks mean that instead of supplying good arguments and evidence that person instead attacks the other debater personally. I don't believe I did that. Can you give an example?
And you are mistaken on what the appeal to authority fallacy means. Saying that 99.9 % of experts agree on something in their field of study isn't an appeal to authority. Saying something like "My dentist says evolution is wrong. Since he is a doctor he must be right". That's a fallacy. Saying "99% of dentists say you should floss" is not a fallacy. 
By stating something is a scientific theory means by definition that an overwhelming amount of evidence supports it. Some theories have more evidence than others of course but evolution and the Big Bang have so much evidence that it would turn the scientific community on its head if they were proven wrong. 
Carbon dating has never been proven unreliable when used properly. If carbon dating has so many flaws then why do scientists use it? Why don't you have a Nobel prize for your discovery. Carbon dating isn't the only thing scientists use for dating anyways. And it's also not the way they calculate the age of the earth. 
The "God Particle" has already been found. And it's not what you think it is. It is a subatomic particle that scientists theorized must exist. And it has nothing to do with God. It's just a nickname. 
The science of non living things becoming living things is abiogenesis. It has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution starts after the first reproducing cell. 
And evolution is a fact. It's demonstrable. Don't take my word for it though. Just ask any of the 99.9% of the experts ( people that actually have degrees in the subject)
And with entropy. You are talking about the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That only applies to things in a closed system. The earth is not a closed system. We get energy for the sun of course. Any other questions guys? I'm here all night.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Slate how old are you and what do you do for a living?. I'm curious


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

28 and medical assistant is my profession. I'm not saying I'm an expert in this though. I do know a lot but you shouldn't take my word for anything. You should ask or read things from actual experts. I just like debating the subject. It gives me a chance to brush up on my knowledge.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

I wasn't asking as if you were an expert I was just wondering what you do for a living how old you are


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

There you go brother. By the way, your girl is looking great. I wish my wife shared my love for the gym. Lucky guy


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Don't be looking at my wife.


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

Haha.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm just kidding. Yes my wife is wonderful I am blessed by Almighty God the Most High to be given such a wonderful wife that I prayed and asked for many years ago. I did not naturally select her it was by divine appointment that we met.heehee


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

The Creator of the universe sure know what he was doing when he brought me and my wife together


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

Alright man. I won't try and take that away from you.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Thank you Satan.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Lol


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## SoccerDad (Feb 11, 2014)

Ad hominem attacks mean that instead of supplying good arguments and evidence that person instead attacks the other debater personally. I don't believe I did that. Can you give an example?

I honestly am not going to look back on the entire thread, at least not at the moment, but my sense is that you have insulted amateur males intelligence.

And you are mistaken on what the appeal to authority fallacy means. Saying that 99.9 % of experts agree on something in their field of study isn't an appeal to authority. Saying something like "My dentist says evolution is wrong. Since he is a doctor he must be right". That's a fallacy. Saying "99% of dentists say you should floss" is not a fallacy. 


Correct (more or less)  in and of itself, but that is not what you are doing in your arguments.  Others may call it an appeal to the majority.  You yourself do not have the expertise to have your statements taken as authoritative, and when you appeal to authority, you use meaningless adjectives such as overwhelming.

By stating something is a scientific theory means by definition that an overwhelming amount of evidence supports it. Some theories have more evidence than others of course but evolution and the Big Bang have so much evidence that it would turn the scientific community on its head if they were proven wrong. 

Again, you do not acknowledge that the cutting edge of both of these areas of study do not accept your understanding of these things.  I am talking about your type of scientists, not creationists.


Carbon dating has never been proven unreliable when used properly. If carbon dating has so many flaws then why do scientists use it? Why don't you have a Nobel prize for your discovery. 

This is another example of the way you have been arguing in this thread.  I never said "many flaws."  I said flaws.  Nice ad hominem attack, with the smart ass question by the way (missing a question mark, I might add).  If it is so good, why isn't it the only method used as you say below?  One flaw is apparent in the way ages are expressed after carbon dating -- they are put in terms of a range.  Therefore, one flaw is it is not precise.

Carbon dating isn't the only thing scientists use for dating anyways. And it's also not the way they calculate the age of the earth. 
The "God Particle" has already been found. And it's not what you think it is. It is a subatomic particle that scientists theorized must exist. And it has nothing to do with God. It's just a nickname. 

Here you go again.  What do I think the God particle is?  You show your arrogance when you purport to know what others are thinking or what their motivations are.  I know what the God particle is, that is why I mentioned it.  I missed the headline that it has been found.

The science of non living things becoming living things is abiogenesis. It has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution starts after the first reproducing cell. 

Chance -- chance ruled before life, chance supposedly causes mutations.  When did order -- and, what planning? -- take over as the cause of the course of the universe?

And evolution is a fact. It's demonstrable. Don't take my word for it though. Just ask any of the 99.9% of the experts ( people that actually have degrees in the subject)

And again, you ignore my point that many of your experts, 54.754 % of them have a differing view than what your are regurgitating.

And with entropy. You are talking about the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That only applies to things in a closed system. The earth is not a closed system. We get energy for the sun of course. Any other questions guys? I'm here all night.

The universe as a whole.

Your arrogance shows again with your smug final statement.

As to your assumptions about my beliefs, you are totally wrong.


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

Soccer dad. I don't want to offend you with what you believe to be an ad hominem attacks but you just don't have a clear understanding about what you are talking about. Entropy, god particle, carbon dating, evolution, logical fallacies. I don't get where you come up with 54% of experts don't agree that evolution is a fact. And I never said I was an expert. That's why I said that no one should take my word for it and that they should actually do some research and see what experts in the field actually say. Do you want me to go through the list of things you got wrong or would you like to look them up yourself?


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## SoccerDad (Feb 11, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> Soccer dad. I don't want to offend you with what you believe to be an ad hominem attacks but you just don't have a clear understanding about what you are talking about. Entropy, god particle, carbon dating, evolution, logical fallacies. I don't get where you come up with 54% of experts don't agree that evolution is a fact. And I never said I was an expert. That's why I said that no one should take my word for it and that they should actually do some research and see what experts in the field actually say. Do you want me to go through the list of things you got wrong or would you like to look them up yourself?



I think you like offending people who point out your silliness.


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

I can't control who gets offended when I ask questions. Would you like for me to point out your mistakes or not? I'm just trying to have a civil debate here. I don't believe anyone besides yourself has been offended here.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Soccer dad I think he tried to insult my intelligence but I left the thread because I have a problem not viewing people with his viewpoint as dumb or stupid. So I guess technically I insulted his intelligence. That and the fact that he refuse to say that evolution has holes in it. Even Bill Nye could not explain how matter can become self conscious.


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

damn it how did I end up responding to this again?


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## amateurmale (Feb 11, 2014)

Your extreme disrespect toward God is offensive but you can take that up with Him.


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## Slate23 (Feb 11, 2014)

And I thought we ending things so well. I didn't know I hurt your feelings. Or your God's feeling. I'll send him a get well card. And i agree. Saying I don't believe your God exists is way more offensive then calling someone evil. And just because we don't know absolutely everything about a subject doesn't mean the theory has "Holes" in it. We don't know absolutely everything about germs but you wouldn't go around saying Germ Theory has a bunch of holes in it would ya? Just because science hasn't figured out something yet (like when matter became self conscious) doesn't mean you can say magic did it.


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

Ouch. Too bad were not taking in person.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

Oh it's gotten to threats now? How's that for civility? That just shows how great your arguments where. I thought you were done with posting here?


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## SoccerDad (Feb 12, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> damn it how did I end up responding to this again?



The problem is that he doesn't read other's posts, he just takes little snippets and uses them to try to rile.  He has no desire to learn and has no ability to question his education.  As you said, why did I bother?

On to diet and exercise again!


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

"I believe in an all powerful God. And if you say that you don't believe he exists then im going to be offended and threaten you over the Internet". I lost all respect for you brother. It's sad that it had to end this way.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

SoccerDad said:


> The problem is that he doesn't read other's posts, he just takes little snippets and uses them to try to rile.  He has no desire to learn and has no ability to question his education.  As you said, why did I bother?
> 
> On to diet and exercise again!



Keep believing that and irreducible complexity, Soccer Dad! I would expect a Nobel Prize in your future


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

No not a threat I meant so we could discuss this better. What a response though!


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## evolutionmoto (Feb 12, 2014)

Religion has 0 basis in reality or fact. Its a completely man made fabrication. it shows through theological fatalism and complete lack of scientific evidence. As a matter of fact science completely disproves every timeframe and statement made in every holy book.


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

Did Slate change his user name? Lol


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## BigBob (Feb 12, 2014)

evolutionmoto said:


> Religion has 0 basis in reality or fact. Its a completely man made fabrication. it shows through theological fatalism and complete lack of scientific evidence. As a matter of fact science completely disproves every timeframe and statement made in every holy book.



Not True.


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## evolutionmoto (Feb 12, 2014)

BigBob said:


> Not True.



Very true


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## gobot (Feb 12, 2014)

Well I watched the entire debate and I’ll say this.  It seemed to me that a majority of Ken Ham’s argument is “because the bible says so”.  He seems to disregard many scientific facts and tosses them out the window because it contradicts the bible.  The argument that I wasn’t there to observe things happening in the past so it can’t be proven is ludicrous to me.  I’ve drawn the conclusion that if you believe in the bible as historical fact there is no amount of scientific evidence that will convince you otherwise and the same thing goes for evolution believers.  I’m a little biased because I believe in evolution but I definitely prefer Bill Nye’s method of debating.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> No not a threat I meant so we could discuss this better. What a response though!



It's not very Jeus like to be so dishonest AM.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

gobot said:


> I’ve drawn the conclusion that if you believe in the bible as historical fact there is no amount of scientific evidence that will convince you otherwise and the same thing goes for evolution believers.



You don't think scientists would stop believing we evolved if it was proven to be untrue? And I don't agree with evolutionmoto that every time frame and statement in Holy books is disproven by science. That's demonstrably untrue and won't help you win over anyone.


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

I was serious. Nowhere did I threaten you.  You made that up yet again.


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

And btw im so distraught that you have no respect for me anymore.  :headbang::headbang::headbang::sFun_Nahnahnabig:            :sSa_cry4:sycho:


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

Maybe we can switch gears a little and talk about the morality of culture and toward the individual based on the theory of evolution versus creation.


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## lycan Venom (Feb 12, 2014)

3 rules of life... dont speak about your religious, political or sports views unless you want to fight.

Dont Live with your in laws

Don't barrow money or mix pleasure with businesses. 


I love Jesus, God. Idk how old the earth is. Idk if the days were longer, slower or faster. Idk whats in outer space, the cave systems or deep ocean. I dont see air, but I know its there (sure we can color gases & storage them)... I cant see YAHWEH (but we find a "GOD particle"), but my faith, loyalty and obedience gives me truth... I pray and they get answered, I see miracles science cant explain... my country was based on GOD. 

School taught me to be an atheist and believe in science... trickery of the devil, magic??? there is good science but that is my GODs working. The big bang theory is just a theory and has been disproved.  

I'm just trying to say we really don't know shit, we think we do but we don't, we can't comprehend GOD's magnificents.... It boils down to personal "reasonable thinking".

It could of been a way better prepared debate... I could of said some things to make bill nye question his statements.

End of my ranting, I dont want to debate or talk about it because I become the crazy dude behind a computer that can't control my anger issues... lmfao


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## BigBob (Feb 12, 2014)

evolutionmoto said:


> Very true



Prove it.


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## evolutionmoto (Feb 12, 2014)

BigBob said:


> Prove it.



OK. The universe is 6,000 years old. False. Hubble expansion disproves that along with the Doppler effect or redshift proves the universe is 13.78 billion +/- 0.12 billion years.

We all came from a single man created first, then a single woman created second 6,000 years ago. False. Modern biology along with genetics dates mitochondrial eve too at least 100,000 years ago and y-cromosomal Adam to 140,000+ years ago.

The earth is 6,000 years old. False. modern geology proves this absurd with new discoveries about water (isotopes along with deviation in hydrogen) further solidifying the earth being at least 4.3 billion years old.

If you need more let me know. We can get into radioactive decay, the age of the sun, e=mc² and energy transfer... It goes on and on.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

lycan Venom said:


> It could of been a way better prepared debate... I could of said some things to make bill nye question his statements.



I disagree with just about your whole statement but what are some of the things you would of told Bill Nye? I'm just curious


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## gobot (Feb 12, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> You don't think scientists would stop believing we evolved if it was proven to be untrue? And I don't agree with evolutionmoto that every time frame and statement in Holy books is disproven by science. That's demonstrably untrue and won't help you win over anyone.



Well yeah I believe people would believe if it was PROVEN but that's the problem isn't it?  Apart from aliens showing up from a 3 billion year old civilization or Jesus Christ himself opening up the sky and literally telling everyone the world is 6000 years old I don't think it's going to happen.


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## evolutionmoto (Feb 12, 2014)

Religion feeds on ignorance and fear. Without those 2 things its relegated to imaginary friends for grown ups. We should understand ignorance and fear being steroid users. Its used against us all the time.


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## lycan Venom (Feb 12, 2014)

Sorry slate your a cool dude, im not here to argue, a debate is an argument. Im here for steroids not religion. That was just my opinion. You have something to prove but not to me and I dont need to prove anything, I just wanted to stir things up and jet out.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

gobot said:


> Well yeah I believe people would believe if it was PROVEN but that's the problem isn't it?  Apart from aliens showing up from a 3 billion year old civilization or Jesus Christ himself opening up the sky and literally telling everyone the world is 6000 years old I don't think it's going to happen.



If geologists found a modern fossil mixed in with a much older fossil then that would disprove evolution. Like if a rabbit fossil was found next to a T-Rex. Another example is that modern chimps have 2 more chromosomes than humans. 48 to 46 for humans. So when scientists found this out they predicted that there must be a pair of  chromosomes that fused together so that humans only have 46. If they didn't find that when they mapped the DNA of chimps then evolution was wrong. We didn't evolved from an ancestor of the chimp. But when they mapped the DNA that's exactly what they found. Chromosome #2. So there are many ways to disprove that all living things evolved. Scientists would welcome them. But no one has found any yet. Not even Lycan


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## BigBob (Feb 12, 2014)

evolutionmoto said:


> OK. The universe is 6,000 years old. False. Hubble expansion disproves that along with the Doppler effect or redshift proves the universe is 13.78 billion +/- 0.12 billion years.
> 
> We all came from a single man created first, then a single woman created second 6,000 years ago. False. Modern biology along with genetics dates mitochondrial eve too at least 100,000 years ago and y-cromosomal Adam to 140,000+ years ago.
> 
> ...



What you say is ttrue. But the Bible does not claim any of those things. The Bible isn't neccesarily  a science or history book. It is more of an ethics book or a spiritual book. 
99 % of ALL people who have ever existed believed in some kind of God. Must be just mass dilusion? 
Its really not a fare debate science to disprove the bible or vice versa. 
If you have any evidence that the bible claims how old the earth is please bring it to my attention.


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## BigBob (Feb 12, 2014)

evolutionmoto said:


> Religion feeds on ignorance and fear. Without those 2 things its relegated to imaginary friends for grown ups. We should understand ignorance and fear being steroid users. Its used against us all the time.



Prove that. I am religious and i am neither ignorant or fearful. I believe in the beauty of humanity. I believe that humans have a very special gift. One we squander often. I believe that no other species on this planet is even minutly close to us in intelligence.


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

I have only been trying to comment on the science of evolution and the age of the earth. That's why I posted the video. I've said before that there are millions of people that believe in the Bible and believe we evolved. I'm not one of them but I understand people that do. And do I believe people are delusional when it comes to God? I do. I think believing things based on evidence is the best way to figure out what's true or not. I think most people would agree until it comes to god. Or politics


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## evolutionmoto (Feb 12, 2014)

BigBob said:


> Prove that. I am religious and i am neither ignorant or fearful. I believe in the beauty of humanity. I believe that humans have a very special gift. One we squander often. I believe that no other species on this planet is even minutly close to us in intelligence.



#1 most people have been religious, are they delusional. Answer, yes. Nazi Germany enjoyed a %100 belief and following in Germany from 1932-1945. Most grade school age children believe in Santa Claus.. Just because most think something doesn't make it true.

#2 ignorance and fear. This is a not more difficult with out some background. Are you christian? Do you believe god intervenes in things?


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## BigBob (Feb 12, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> I have only been trying to comment on the science of evolution and the age of the earth. That's why I posted the video. I've said before that there are millions of people that believe in the Bible and believe we evolved. I'm not one of them but I understand people that do. And do I believe people are delusional when it comes to God? I do. I think believing things based on evidence is the best way to figure out what's true or not. I think most people would agree until it comes to god. Or politics



So your calling all us bible thumpers delusional. Thanks. And I was just beginning to like you.....


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## Slate23 (Feb 12, 2014)

I know it sounds offensive. Which isn't my intent. I grew up a Christian so I know what it's like to be delusional. . But wouldn't you consider Muslims or Scientologists a bit delusional? Look into the Mormon religion. There are some crazy things going on there.


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

And the plot thickens.  I saw that one a mile away.


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## amateurmale (Feb 12, 2014)

Slate you mentioned politics.  Who did u vote for?


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## dorian777 (Feb 13, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Slate you mentioned politics.  Who did u vote for?



Probably the fool that said we "cling to our guns and religion."


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## BigBob (Feb 13, 2014)

evolutionmoto said:


> #1 most people have been religious, are they delusional. Answer, yes. Nazi Germany enjoyed a %100 belief and following in Germany from 1932-1945. Most grade school age children believe in Santa Claus.. Just because most think something doesn't make it true.
> 
> #2 ignorance and fear. This is a not more difficult with out some background. Are you christian? Do you believe god intervenes in things?



"Religion feeds on ignorance and fear" You Said this so it should not matter what Religion I am.
And It is Usually Governments or groups of people who co-opt Religion and turn people against each other. 
But Slate is right. This was about New earth vs old earth and I Do not believe that the Bible should be used to determine how old the earth is. It would be like using a cookbook to battle a law case.
I am sure God is not concerned about these nuances. He wants us to make a better world and love one another. Cant argue with that Shit Man.


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## evolutionmoto (Feb 13, 2014)

BigBob said:


> "Religion feeds on ignorance and fear" You Said this so it should not matter what Religion I am.
> And It is Usually Governments or groups of people who co-opt Religion and turn people against each other.
> But Slate is right. This was about New earth vs old earth and I Do not believe that the Bible should be used to determine how old the earth is. It would be like using a cookbook to battle a law case.
> I am sure God is not concerned about these nuances. He wants us to make a better world and love one another. Cant argue with that Shit Man.



If you can't trust the bibles accuracy about where you came from how are you going to trust it to tell you where you're going?


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## Slate23 (Feb 13, 2014)

I personally think that the Bible and evolution is incompatible but most Christians don't see to have a problem. That why I'm always surprised when people go crazy about evolution. They are doing a disservice to their church when they say that evolution and the bible are incompatible. I think it's a big reason for the decline of religion in this country.


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## amateurmale (Feb 13, 2014)

Decline in religion? ???   And all this time I was thinking it was from people telling them there's no God and they came from apes. Lol. Stupid me.


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## BigBob (Feb 13, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Decline in religion? ???   And all this time I was thinking it was from people telling them there's no God and they came from apes. Lol. Stupid me.



Yes decline in religion but increases in mental health diagnosis. Plus ever increasing dependence on drugs. 
Sad really


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## BigBob (Feb 13, 2014)

evolutionmoto said:


> If you can't trust the bibles accuracy about where you came from how are you going to trust it to tell you where you're going?



I trust it to tell me WHERE I'm going just not HOW or HOW LONG.


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## BigBob (Feb 13, 2014)

Slate23 said:


> I personally think that the Bible and evolution is incompatible but most Christians don't see to have a problem. That why I'm always surprised when people go crazy about evolution. They are doing a disservice to their church when they say that evolution and the bible are incompatible. I think it's a big reason for the decline of religion in this country.



But I dont think The Bible addresses evolution. It is very vague. If you research the language of that Time you'll find it poetic.
There really isn't a conflict YET.....if you can give me a specific quote then maybe I can understand.


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## Slate23 (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm not talking about the bible. I'm talking about preachers or people in the church telling younger people that if the bible is the word of god then evolution can't be true. And then when kids find ou that yes evolution is a fact, then they will start doubting everything these preachers have been telling them.


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## Slate23 (Feb 13, 2014)

I personally think evolution disproves Christianity in general but most Christians (obviously) don't see it that way.


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## BigBob (Feb 13, 2014)

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## Slate23 (Feb 13, 2014)

That's all that is brother


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## Slate23 (Feb 13, 2014)

It's funny I just saw today that HBO has a documentary about this very subject. It's called Questioning Darwin. It doesn't bash creation. It's all from the point of view from creationists. It's really interesting.


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## amateurmale (Feb 14, 2014)

The hamburger screeches in the night.


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## Phoe2006 (Feb 14, 2014)

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/bill-nye-marsha-blackburn-meet-the-press-climate-change


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## amateurmale (Feb 14, 2014)

Yes you see you must vote Democrat because of evolution and global warming science compels you to. What a damn joke


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