# Long and short esters



## butthole69 (Aug 25, 2013)

I'm finding that I like short esters more and more. I want to run 50mg testosterone suspension and 50mg trenbolone acetate per day.

I don't want my blood levels to be all over the place and sometimes I'll miss a daily injection. So I was thinking I would inject 1cc test-cyp and 1cc tren-e twice per week in addition to my no ester/ acetate shots. 

Does anyone have experience with this sort of approach?


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## kubes (Aug 25, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> I'm finding that I like short esters more and more. I want to run 50mg testosterone suspension and 50mg trenbolone acetate per day.
> 
> I don't want my blood levels to be all over the place and sometimes I'll miss a daily injection. So I was thinking I would inject 1cc test-cyp and 1cc tren-e twice per week in addition to my no ester/ acetate shots.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with this sort of approach?



Many run there trt blasts that way. Are you planning to cycle off and pct?


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 25, 2013)

Great idea bh69..i can feel a short ester in a day no need to wait for it to work..either it does or doesnt.. ive been doiin that for years.. tren b rocks the no cough for me. Just grabbed another jug..


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 25, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Dudcki27 is the guy to talk to when it comes to this!


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## kubes (Aug 25, 2013)

I think you will like the faster kick start and when you decide to come of if you discontinue the longer ester first its a plus being able to start pct sooner


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## butthole69 (Aug 25, 2013)

I might run an hCG cruise soon just to keep my testicles healthy, but I B&C. Even if testosterone didn't increase muscle mass I would B&C.

I appreciate the feedback! If I could find some testosterone undecanoate I would run that along with EQ, and then run Test and Tren susp. over that.

I always thought dudes running propionate because of less bloating were idiots. According to science the hormone is inactive until its ester its cleaved. Maybe some conversion of T to estrogen or other inactive hormones occurs while the ester is still attached. It may just be a placebo effect, but no ester gear seems way stronger.


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## kubes (Aug 25, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> I might run an hCG cruise soon just to keep my testicles healthy, but I B&C. Even if testosterone didn't increase muscle mass I would B&C.
> 
> I appreciate the feedback! If I could find some testosterone undecanoate I would run that along with EQ, and then run Test and Tren susp. over that.
> 
> I always thought dudes running propionate because of less bloating were idiots. According to science the hormone is inactive until its ester its cleaved. Maybe some conversion of T to estrogen or other inactive hormones occurs while the ester is still attached. It may just be a placebo effect, but no ester gear seems way stronger.



Diet and estrogen control is what seems to cause bloat more often IMO. Good luck


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 25, 2013)

The whole bloat thing with long esters is the build up effect-

After 5 weeks of 700mg test Cyp you'll end up with a shit ton more test in you than 700/week

With Prop you eliminate it much faster so you don't get the "stacking/ compounding" effect

At least this is my theory of why people notice less bloat with short esters- it's simply that they have less in them through our the cycle


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## kubes (Aug 25, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> The whole bloat thing with long esters is the build up effect-
> 
> After 5 weeks of 700mg test Cyp you'll end up with a shit ton more test in you than 700/week
> 
> ...



I am on board with that but do you think there is still estrogen playing a role in this since there is more test built up in the system with the longer esters?


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 25, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> I'm finding that I like short esters more and more. I want to run 50mg testosterone suspension and 50mg trenbolone acetate per day.
> 
> I don't want my blood levels to be all over the place and sometimes I'll miss a daily injection. So I was thinking I would inject 1cc test-cyp and 1cc tren-e twice per week in addition to my no ester/ acetate shots.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with this sort of approach?



Regardless how you run this your hormones levels will be all over the place anyway. Your taking susp and ace daily and miss shots so your up and down. Although these are in your system longer than many think. If your gonna run aas like this I would recommend adding in the longer esters as you plan. This way you will have a constant throughout your cycle. I see you blast and cruise so even reason to do so as you can just continue using the long esters when you stop the others.

You feel the short or no ester stuff more simply because they are in and out really fast. Then you have the ester weight that can be a factor and it's release timing. Everyone likes different things so it's good you have found something you like... I plan to use short esters a lot more in the future too.

The frequency of injections is a key factor in possible aromatization. An example if you inject 700mg test e in 7 daily 100mg shots over 1 week there should be less estrogen conversion compared to one big shot of 700mg. Increased aromatization would lead to more bloat so injection frequency is a factor. But as highlighted above it's mainly (literally 99%) diet that will dictate bloat. 

HCG could be run in some many effective ways. I try to use as little as ancillaries as possible. To send signals I think as little as 100-200mcg per week is more than enough. Although running it in cycles is a good method too. I used to do that but got fed up and it hasn't negatively effected me in anyway. HCG can cause a huge estrogen rebound and I would not take it unless you are running an AI with it.


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## butthole69 (Aug 25, 2013)

jim230027 said:


> I am on board with that but do you think there is still estrogen playing a role in this since there is more test built up in the system with the longer esters?



I don't think it's estrogen. Part of it is that enanthate is like 65% testosterone by weight so people end up using more without realizing it.

Even taking the fact that you get more homrone per mg with steroid base, I think steroid bases are stronger.

The only ROA that has a faster onset that IM is IV injections. I'd bet that IM wintrol peaks faster and harder than oral winstrol.

With esterfied steroids, your body needs to metabolize them before it can use them. With testosterone base you get the whole dose available to you right away. My guess is that test base has an active life of 6-10 hours with a peak 1-3 hours in. Obviously this varies a lot depending on the amount of oil injected and the type of solvents used. Trenbolone base should have an even shorter half life than testosterone base because trenbolone doesn't bind to SHBG and testosterone is highly bound.


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 25, 2013)

jim230027 said:


> I am on board with that but do you think there is still estrogen playing a role in this since there is more test built up in the system with the longer esters?



Exactly. Higher test levels and more aromatization. Added to that bulking diets and high sodium. Sounds simple but if a guy really lean took test with loads of AI's and a clean diet he would not bloat up like you see many do. Estrogen is key when it comes to test. Plus the individuals starting position (body type, slin sensitivity etc). I think the key is balance... using the right amount of AI. Loads over do the AI's and it effects their possible gains, joints, flatness etc. Whilst the opposite (no AI's) just bloat up and due to the higher estrogen possibily more fat over time.


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## butthole69 (Aug 25, 2013)

Elvia1023 said:


> You feel the short or no ester stuff more simply because they are in and out really fast. Then you have the ester weight that can be a factor and it's release timing. Everyone likes different things so it's good you have found something you like... I plan to use short esters a lot more in the future too.



I think you're right but it's not quite that simple. ROA can change a drug's effects


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 25, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> I don't think it's estrogen. Part of it is that enanthate is like 65% testosterone by weight so people end up using more without realizing it.
> 
> Even taking the fact that you get more homrone per mg with steroid base, I think steroid bases are stronger.
> 
> ...



But the ester weight as little effect on things. Obviously there is more testosterone per 100mg so in a sense they are stronger. So approx 100% no ester, prop 85%, test e/c 65-70% etc. Then you have the short acting nature of test s or tren a so more of a 'boost' in a sense. Longer esters are known as having more of an anabolic effect over time. I personally think long/short esters each have pro's and cons but hormones are hormones and they are all effective. Everyone likes different things... I am more a long ester type of guy due to laziness


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 25, 2013)

No point in going any further. The answer is already in this thread.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 26, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> The whole bloat thing with long esters is the build up effect-
> 
> After 5 weeks of 700mg test Cyp you'll end up with a shit ton more test in you than 700/week
> 
> ...


:yeahthat:


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## butthole69 (Aug 26, 2013)

Ignoring ester weight, 700mg per week is 700mg per week. Testosterone is not active until the ester is cleaved - at which point it has a serum half life of a couple hours. Testosterone enanthate becomes testerone base before it binds to an AR receptor. 

Test-e is more fat soluble than testosterone base. There are also lipase and aromatase enzymes in fat cells. That could mean the 1000s of milligrams of test-e youre injecting is sitting dissolved in your fat and is slowly being turning into active testosterone in your fat (some of which then turns into estrogen in the very same adipose tissue before it can circulate and have an effect as testosterone). Testosterone base is less lipid soluble so less of it will dissolve into your adipose tissue.

If testosterone enanthate exerted an anabolic effect for the entire two weeks it stayed in your system it would be much much stronger than testosterone base. But the enanthate just sits there and is released at a steady (hopefully) rate through lipase activity.


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 26, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> Ignoring ester weight, 700mg per week is 700mg per week. Testosterone is not active until the ester is cleaved - at which point it has a serum half life of a couple hours. Testosterone enanthate becomes testerone base before it binds to an AR receptor.
> 
> Test-e is more fat soluble than testosterone base. There are also lipase and aromatase enzymes in fat cells. That could mean the 1000s of milligrams of test-e youre injecting is sitting dissolved in your fat and is slowly being turning into active testosterone in your fat (some of which then turns into estrogen in the very same adipose tissue before it can circulate and have an effect as testosterone). Testosterone base is less lipid soluble so less of it will dissolve into your adipose tissue.
> 
> If testosterone enanthate exerted an anabolic effect for the entire two weeks it stayed in your system it would be much much stronger than testosterone base. But the enanthate just sits there and is released at a steady (hopefully) rate through lipase activity.



You don't think longer esters have a stacking effect? When your say 10 weeks in your test will be higher and as a result e2 is likely gonna be higher due to the higher aromatization (compared to a cycle of test p eod injs for example). 700mg test is 700mg test in a general sense but excluding ester attached you don't think the dosing frequency makes a difference either? The dosing frequency imo can effect numerous processes and just the general feel of a cycle. 

The obvious difference in cycles is also guys just do 500mg test p per week or 500mg test e per week. I don't know anyone who calculates ester weight and deducts it. So 500mg test p will always be more test per mg than longer esters. That is all basic stuff as you know but accounts for the difference in most peoples feel on a cycle (they are using more test). That's why most think shorter esters are stronger as they are doing different amounts thinking they are the same.

You don't think dosing frequency will effect aromatization? The body definitely reacts differently to one massive shot of test as opposed to 7 daily smaller injs. I think this is all abit silly though as differences are minor. Sure esters are only there to effect the steroids water solubility (increase fat solubility). You are spot on about test being inactive when esterification takes place. It's only active once it hits the blood. As you say 700mg test is 700mg test.

I can see what you are getting with everything (and agree) but I think your way overthinking things. I think everyone should just experiment and find what they like most. Fact is there isn't much difference with the different esters in regards to results. It's just finding what fits you best imo. Most guys I know who have started using short or esterless gear prefer it. You do feel more of a boost... but they obviously have to be run everyday that's brings about the con for most users. I think rotating or combining both is usually the best way.  I see suspensions are in now and seem to be getting more and more popular. I personally like the convenience of longer esters but will be starting a short blast soon comprising of test p, tren a and npp


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## butthole69 (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm saying that test-e won't stack because it has an active life of 2 weeks. It does not have an active life of several weeks. Test-e is not an anabolic hormone - it is a prohormone to testosterone base. Yes there is a stacking effect like you mentioned but because of that there is also a much lower dose at the start of the cycle so it balances out to be the same amount of total testosterone over 12 weeks as propionate injections. That is why people front load long esters.

I agree long esters are much more convenient. You can stick 5cc in both glutes and that's a 3000mg dose right there. Split to 5cc in each glute monday/thursday that can be an entire bodybuilder's cycle in two injections. I'm guessing its almost impossible to get a steady level of testosterone using suspension - there will be peaks even with 3x a day injects. If you're only using short esters you need to inject lots more oil, which causes more scar tissue build up in the muscle (that could lead to a muscle tear?), and short esters tend to be more expensive mg per mg. Short esters sometimes have lots of solvents in them. I hope some retard UGL doesn't start using paint thinners or some other cheap solvent in their high mg "cut blend."


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 27, 2013)

It's a known fact test e will build up over time and will be in the system well after 2 weeks post injection. I can't be bothered looking up studies but there are tonnes of them. The stacking effect of long esters and overall dose would only add to the length of time artificial test is active in the body after that last injection.

Test E is not an anabolic hormone 

Frontloading long esters is stupid imo but sure many do it.



butthole69 said:


> I'm saying that test-e won't stack because it has an active life of 2 weeks. It does not have an active life of several weeks. Test-e is not an anabolic hormone - it is a prohormone to testosterone base. Yes there is a stacking effect like you mentioned but because of that there is also a much lower dose at the start of the cycle so it balances out to be the same amount of total testosterone over 12 weeks as propionate injections. That is why people front load long esters.
> 
> I agree long esters are much more convenient. You can stick 5cc in both glutes and that's a 3000mg dose right there. Split to 5cc in each glute monday/thursday that can be an entire bodybuilder's cycle in two injections. I'm guessing its almost impossible to get a steady level of testosterone using suspension - there will be peaks even with 3x a day injects. If you're only using short esters you need to inject lots more oil, which causes more scar tissue build up in the muscle (that could lead to a muscle tear?), and short esters tend to be more expensive mg per mg. Short esters sometimes have lots of solvents in them. I hope some retard UGL doesn't start using paint thinners or some other cheap solvent in their high mg "cut blend."


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 27, 2013)

This is ridiculous. All of this is to create a long-lasting reservoir of testosterone with an intramuscular injection. We're talking in this thread about long and short esters, not testosterone or testosterone base (or TNE as it's called). Some in-plasma testosterone is obviously converted to estrogen via aromatization but esterified testosterone is created artificially with the process of esterification to increase the weight of the molecule and improve the solubility in OIL (fat) so it can be placed in depot via intramuscular injection. The longer the ester, the better the solubility and greater hydrophobicity of the esterified testosterone (the solute) to create a longer delivery mechanism.

In reality, the release rate is not very steady. It's very high in the beginning and then rapidly falls to a lower level and only then slowly drops as the size of the reservoir diminishes. Where it becomes somewhat different is in the time it takes to diminish. With longer esters, each subsequent reservoir that is created acts similarly so by the 3rd or 4th dose, you have several reservoirs releasing their payload (testosterone _x_) simultaneously and their effect is cumulative and eventually reaches a high level and stays that way (steady-state plasma level). The time it takes the ester to be cleaved is of no consequence. Because the level high, steadily for such a long period, more is converted and reduced along with metabolization. With shorter esters, which are absorbed more quickly, there is less time at very high plasma levels and less time for aromatization and 5-alpha reduction to occur throughout the body. Not a lot less, just a bit less. Enough though, for some people to notice somewhat less estrogenic side effects (water retention, etc). The amount of aromatization that occurs in adipose tissue is so tiny that it is unlikely to account for what some people notice as the difference between long and short esterified testosterone - particularly people with low amounts of adipose tissue.


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 27, 2013)

Agree with the above. I like to experiment and try to constantly learn new things regarding aas but some people really do put far too much thought into them. Saying test e is not an anabolic hormone is plain silly to me. I am nothing special but I often wonder what some of these posters look like who are so anal about hormones. Are they at the top of bb and looking for that extra edge or are they under 200 pounds and 12 bf%.


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## butthole69 (Aug 27, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> This is ridiculous. All of this is to create a long-lasting reservoir of testosterone with an intramuscular injection. We're talking in this thread about long and short esters, not testosterone or testosterone base (or TNE as it's called)
> 
> In reality, the release rate is not very steady.



No, I am referring to testosterone no ester in oil. Water based products actually create a depot because of the physical characteristics of the test crystals. I saw a study that said Winstrol V had an active life of over a week because the crystals take so long to dissolve.

With suspension only the surface of each crystal is exposed. With testosterone no ester in oil the entire bolus of testosterone is immediately available for uptake into the bloodstream.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 28, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> No, I am referring to testosterone no ester in oil. Water based products actually create a depot because of the physical characteristics of the test crystals. I saw a study that said Winstrol V had an active life of over a week because the crystals take so long to dissolve.
> 
> With suspension only the surface of each crystal is exposed. With testosterone no ester in oil the entire bolus of testosterone is immediately available for uptake into the bloodstream.


You were the one who brought the pharmacokinetics of non-esterified testosterone into this thread. Nobody is referring to water or oil-based suspensions of testosterone in the thread (see: thread title). We are discussing the difference between the effects of long and short esterified compounds and the difference in pharmacokinetics of esterified compounds. Testosterone, testosterone base, or "TNE" (all the same thing) would warrant a dedicated thread since pharmacologically, suspensions behave differently.

The other matter that needs immediately debunked (or bunked, I don't know which) is the idea that one's testosterone levels must remain steady to be productive. That's ridiculous (and quite impossible). If you knew how much your natural levels of testosterone fluctuated day-to-day, week-to-week, and you still have a strong libido, strength and size gains. A normal, natural healthy male gets up in the morning, his total testosterone level (TT) may be 750ng's/dL. Yet, by that night, his levels may have dropped to 200 or 300ng's/dL. Does he lose any mass or sex drive or get fat? The next week, his testosterone upon waking may be 400ng's/dL and 150ng's/dL by nightfall. Men have been living with these relatively large fluctuations in testosterone for thousands of years with no problems.

With superphysiological doses of testosterone all one has to do is keep it constantly HIGH - not necessarily steady. When you begin regulating your own testosterone levels, that is, administering doses of exogenous testosterone, you shut down your endogenous production. So now, the important part is making sure you don't find yourself in a poor situation of *sub*physiological levels of testosterone. This all depends on making sure your administration is correct and that you keep levels in the normal range or high above the normal range.

I understand that there are some products that are relatively new and selling well and being promoted heavily as the next "best testosterone". Well, let me dispell the myths right now. It's all bullshit. There is only testosterone - "test is test is test" as the saying goes. Testosterone is high in androgens and conversion to estrogen and dihydrotestosterone. There are much better muscle builders out there today but make no mistake: all of them are AR-mediated to a greater of lesser extent. In other words, test is still king, just improved for existing applications. Just how rapid and how high do you want your testosterone to go anyway? And how much estrogen control do you want to take to go along with it? How much trouble do you want to make for yourself? And what does 5-alpha reductase and your poor prostate and hairline have to say about all this?? Yikes.

I agree that this is being made way to complicated. And the more complicated a system, the more chances to screw it up.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 28, 2013)

Elvia1023 said:


> Saying test e is not an anabolic hormone is plain silly to me.


All I think this is is just misunderstanding in the way it's worded. Of course T enanthate is anabolic - but only once it has crossed into the blood stream and esterase enzymatic action cleaves the ester from the molecule and then free testosterone is in your bloodstream.

Basically it just comes down to this. T enanthate in your bloodstream is inert (unusable) UNTIL the ester is cleaved from the molecule. To say it's not anabolic begs the question, not anabolic when? Testosterone is anabolic.

At least I think that's where that was going.


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## butthole69 (Aug 29, 2013)

Elvia1023 said:


> Agree with the above. I like to experiment and try to constantly learn new things regarding aas but some people really do put far too much thought into them. Saying test e is not an anabolic hormone is plain silly to me. I am nothing special but I often wonder what some of these posters look like who are so anal about hormones. Are they at the top of bb and looking for that extra edge or are they under 200 pounds and 12 bf%.



I'm not trying to argue or step on anyone's toes. I'm sure there are guys who have more impressive physiques than mine that have been built with only test-e and deca. But, I have a college education and some of the science here is wrong. I thought it would be helpful to clear up the misconceptions and then post it on a public website for free - giving anasci.org all copyright.


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## OuchThatHurts (Aug 29, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> I'm not trying to argue or step on anyone's toes. I'm sure there are guys who have more impressive physiques than mine that have been built with only test-e and deca. But, I have a college education and some of the science here is wrong. I thought it would be helpful to clear up the misconceptions and then post it on a public website for free - giving anasci.org all copyright.


It's not always easy to take "butthole69" seriously. Would I be taken seriously if my name was analfixation2013? LOL! My bad, the obviousness of that is just funny!


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 29, 2013)

OuchThatHurts said:


> All I think this is is just misunderstanding in the way it's worded. Of course T enanthate is anabolic - but only once it has crossed into the blood stream and esterase enzymatic action cleaves the ester from the molecule and then free testosterone is in your bloodstream.
> 
> Basically it just comes down to this. T enanthate in your bloodstream is inert (unusable) UNTIL the ester is cleaved from the molecule. To say it's not anabolic begs the question, not anabolic when? Testosterone is anabolic.
> 
> At least I think that's where that was going.



Thanks for the info. As you say it's hard to take a username like butthole69 seriously  That's why I thought he had wrote that statement as he keeps mentioning how test is not active until it hits the blood etc. But to say test e is not an anabolic hormones is plain silly to me. He's way overthinking things imo. As you say test is anabolic. The ester is not anabolic. The two called are both anabolic and non anabolic at different times. So obviously test e is an anabolic hormone. Sounds pretty simple but just the ay I look at it.

Butthole your knowledge is great and I would never deny that. I just think you skip over some basic things in order to get to the  complicated stuff. Your an American so will use this analogy... Abit like going to play a football match and you bring your helmet, shoulder pads, knee pads, shoes, gloves... but you forget the ball  It's the basics in this that will give you most of the results. Anyway off to work  Have a good day everyone.


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## Elvia1023 (Aug 29, 2013)

butthole69 said:


> I'm not trying to argue or step on anyone's toes. I'm sure there are guys who have more impressive physiques than mine that have been built with only test-e and deca. But, I have a college education and some of the science here is wrong. I thought it would be helpful to clear up the misconceptions and then post it on a public website for free - giving anasci.org all copyright.



Well your posts are the ones that have made me think the most so your only adding to this place so don't think your stepping on my shoes.


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## butthole69 (Aug 29, 2013)

Thanks then I will continue posting. And yea it's a fair criticism that this stuff is all unnecessary information but I luv steroids so it's fun for me to talk about. Obviously the average amateur weightlifter doesn't need to know the details on how lipase enzymes remove esters lol


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