# Need some input on which Estrogen Blocker to use?



## amateurmale (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm running:
-100mgs of prop injected every day (700/week for the dumb people)
-100-150mgs of test suspension on workout days which is 4 times a week 
-600mgs of mast enanthate
-600mgs of primo enanthate


I'm not sure exemestane at 25mgs/day will keep my estrogen in check since I'm running a total of 1,100 to 1,300 mgs of test a week.  Should I add some letro in too?  If so, what dose?


----------



## g0hardorgohome (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't have experience from test doses that high, but...

Transdermal Formestane did wonders for me. It even made my pubertal gyno disappear.. I like it better than research grade AI's (arimidex, aromasin). And I am sensitive to estrogen.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 1, 2013)

Adex will reduce estro by about 50%, exemestane 85%,  letro 98%.  Without bloods you have to go by feel.  If that is working for you dont change it.  If you start to feel symptoms letro is nice to have.  Remember you dont want it to low.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 1, 2013)

Magnus82 said:


> Adex will reduce estro by about 50%, exemestane 65%,  letro 98%.  Without bloods you have to go by feel.  If that is working for you dont change it.  If you start to feel symptoms letro is nice to have.  Remember you dont want it to low.



What's a typical dose for letro and should I run it with exemestane or is it a one or the other type of deal?


----------



## tripletotal (Dec 1, 2013)

When I've run letro it did more than enough all by itself. It's an estrogen sledgehammer.

Libido sledgehammer, too. Lol.

It's a backup plan as far as I'm concerned. If exemestame is doing the job, keep it to that, imo.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 1, 2013)

I assume exemestane should follow letro after a cycle to combat rebound correct?


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 1, 2013)

I would run exemestane.  I have run letro solo at .25 mg daily.  if bloating or or other high estro sides surface you could bump it to .50mg.  And yes you could taper off with exemestane  to give you a soft landing.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 1, 2013)

Magnus82 said:


> I would run exemestane.  I have run letro solo at .25 mg daily.  if bloating or or other high estro sides surface you could bump it to .50mg.  And yes you could taper off with exemestane  to give you a soft landing.



Ok, how much exemestane a day for 1.3 grams of test?  I'm currently running 25mgs/day.


----------



## Sully (Dec 1, 2013)

Why not stay with the exemestane the way you're running it now, and at week 3 of your cycle get blood work done? The bloodwork will tell you for certain whether or not you need to make any changes to your AI protocol.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 2, 2013)

25mg should be sufficient as its the saturation dose, unless you are very gyno prone or prepping for a show, then you need something stronger like letro.


----------



## g0hardorgohome (Dec 2, 2013)

Magnus82 said:


> 25g should be sufficient as its the saturation dose, unless you are very gyno prone or prepping for a show, then you need something stronger like letro.


25g is shitload of it!


----------



## kubes (Dec 2, 2013)

g0hardorgohome said:


> 25g is shitload of it!



Yeah but with that much test it is only going to lower his estro by 50-60%


----------



## t.c.jones (Dec 2, 2013)

g0hardorgohome said:


> 25g is shitload of it!



I would think he meant 25mg. IMO I use letro .25mgs eod. My source puts dynamite in it. LOL. Its not a source here so I will not give the name up for respect to the guys who do advertise here. Please dont ask.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 2, 2013)

g0hardorgohome said:


> 25g is shitload of it!


Thanks for catchingvthat bro, edited.


----------



## kubes (Dec 2, 2013)

Magnus82 said:


> Thanks for catchingvthat bro, edited.



Shoot i didn't catch that either! So used to it being dosed at 12.5 mg or 25 mg didn't even look twice


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 2, 2013)

jim230027 said:


> Yeah but with that much test it is only going to lower his estro by 50-60%




Ok so what would you do?  Letro or exemestane?


----------



## chrisr116 (Dec 2, 2013)

t.c.jones said:


> I would think he meant 25mg. IMO I use letro .25mgs eod. My source puts dynamite in it. LOL. Its not a source here so I will not give the name up for respect to the guys who do advertise here. Please dont ask.



That is the same dose I have used for several cycles, and have never had any estrogen related issues.  It is such a small amount that I use two drops from the dropper in the container every other day.  It does kill my sex drive big time, though.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 2, 2013)

chrisr116 said:


> That is the same dose I have used for several cycles, and have never had any estrogen related issues.  It is such a small amount that I use two drops from the dropper in the container every other day.  It does kill my sex drive big time, though.



Chris, since it killed.yoir sex drive, would you say it suppressed to much estrogen?  What was the dose of test you were on?


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 2, 2013)

Keep in mind AM exemestane is the only one not to have shown a negative affect on cholesterol.


----------



## chrisr116 (Dec 2, 2013)

Magnus82 said:


> Chris, since it killed.yoir sex drive, would you say it suppressed to much estrogen?  What was the dose of test you were on?



Last cycle was 450mg test enanthate, the one before that was like 600mg, and 950mg test on the one before that.  All per week.  I really need to have blood work done mid cycle to see where my estrogen level with all the chemicals working at once.


----------



## ShortStop (Dec 2, 2013)

I use to run AIs.. I find Aromasin works the best out of the 3... Now i use anti Es much better on the blood.. Without blood work I would go by feel.. If i was feeling like Im holding water or bloated i would up my dose until i found a good medium


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 2, 2013)

Magnus82 said:


> Keep in mind AM exemestane is the only one not to have shown a negative affect on cholesterol.




Yes I know that why I'm tryin to stay with exemestane.  

Last time I ran exemestane at 12.5mgs eod with over a gram of test and my estor came back 135 and I got a small tick of gyno.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 2, 2013)

ShortStop said:


> I use to run AIs.. I find Aromasin works the best out of the 3... Now i use anti Es much better on the blood.. Without blood work I would go by feel.. If i was feeling like Im holding water or bloated i would up my dose until i found a good medium



Anti E's?   Please explain.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 2, 2013)

Without bloods AM you will have to go by feel.  If you have research chems I would start at 30mg/day.  Pharm grade 25mg/day.  If you are holding water or seeing some swelling up it to 40 or 50.  If your drive is gone and joints hurt lower it a little.   I think without bloods this is your best option.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 2, 2013)

I've been running 25mgs/day I'm gonna stick with that for another week then go get bloods.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 2, 2013)

Good choice brother!


----------



## ShortStop (Dec 2, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Anti E's?   Please explain.



Nova and clomid are not aromatase inhibitors like Adex Aromasin and letro.. They would be considered AIs which blocks the production of estrogen... Anti Es are like clomid  Nolva which inhibit estrogen and are much better for blood lipids


----------



## kubes (Dec 2, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Ok so what would you do?  Letro or exemestane?



I prefer aromasin bro


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 2, 2013)

ShortStop said:


> Nova and clomid are not aromatase inhibitors like Adex Aromasin and letro.. They would be considered AIs which blocks the production of estrogen... Anti Es are like clomid  Nolva which inhibit estrogen and are much better for blood lipids



Oh, that's what were talking about (letro, adex, aromasin)

Also, nolva is very good for cholesterol....research it.


----------



## ShortStop (Dec 2, 2013)

jim230027 said:


> I prefer aromasin bro



Agreed Aromasin was the best Ai Ive used as far as blood work goes


----------



## GBMax (Dec 3, 2013)

From the avatar I see a female lifter.... I hope this isn't actually a female running these kinds of doses of Test, as well as Estrogen blockers for a female? These doses in it of themselves aren't anything worth batting an eye about but this truly concerns me if you are a woman. Seems like homemade sexual re-orientation D:

GBMax


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 3, 2013)

GBMax said:


> From the avatar I see a female lifter.... I hope this isn't actually a female running these kinds of doses of Test, as well as Estrogen blockers for a female? These doses in it of themselves aren't anything worth batting an eye about but this truly concerns me if you are a woman. Seems like homemade sexual re-orientation D:
> 
> GBMax





:sFi_slapface::sFi_slapface::sFi_slapface:


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 3, 2013)

AM just has a very well developed chest! Keep up those dips brotha!


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 10, 2013)

Ok estrogen is 63.2 on gauls exemestane dosed at 37.5mgs a day. 

That's 20 points too high.


----------



## Sully (Dec 11, 2013)

Are you getting any symptoms of low E? Any gyno this time? And I think u said u already have Letro on hand, right?

I see 2 ways to handle it. 
#1.Up your Aromasin to 50mg daily and retest in a week to two weeks. 
#2.Switch to Letro and retest in a week to two weeks. 

I'd lean toward trying more Aromasin first, just because the negative affect Letro has on lipids is well documented and best to be avoided if at all possible. If the additional Aromadin doesn't do the job, then consider switching to Letro. 

AM, did you get anything tested besides estrogen? Just curious what the rest of your labs might look like.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 11, 2013)

Lil' Sully said:


> Are you getting any symptoms of low E? Any gyno this time? And I think u said u already have Letro on hand, right?
> 
> I see 2 ways to handle it.
> #1.Up your Aromasin to 50mg daily and retest in a week to two weeks.
> ...



Ok ill bump the aromasin up some.  I just got another bottle in from researchstop. 
No, I didn't get anything else checked.  I'm waiting until I'm 4-5 weeks in cycle before I do that.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 11, 2013)

I think I'm going to drop the test suspension too. I think that's where most of the estrogen is coming from.


----------



## winnivee (Dec 11, 2013)

12.5mg aromasin ED works for me when I run anything between 1g-1.5g.. Will use arimidex precontest seems to dry me out more. Run nolvadex here and there when I'm cruising. I also have my blood work done every 4 months.


----------



## Sully (Dec 11, 2013)

You might wanna consider sourcing some pharm grade Aromasin, AM. I'm not trying to dog your sources, it's just that we all know that research chems can be a little sketchy at times. With pharm grade u know what you're taking is dosed properly.


----------



## Sully (Dec 11, 2013)

You should also consider leaving in the suspension for now. If you up your Aromasin dose, drop the suspension and your E goes down on the next test how do you know which one did it? Maybe upping the dose worked, but maybe it was dropping the suspension. You really won't know which one gave you the desired result. Only make 1 change at a time to your cycle to determine efficacy.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

You are on a cycle of very high Test.  That estrogen reading is not too high for the amount of Test you are on.  I would not up the AI dose.  Who ever said you have to stay within normal ranges while on cycle, your Test is not in normal range?  You don't want it really high because of sides, if you are not experiencing many sides, then in my opinion you are gtg.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

MaineGuy said:


> You are on a cycle of very high Test.  That estrogen reading is not too high for the amount of Test you are on.  I would not up the AI dose.  Who ever said you have to stay within normal ranges while on cycle, your Test is not in normal range?  You don't want it really high because of sides, if you are not experiencing many sides, then in my opinion you are gtg.




Having estrogen within normal range is very much achievable on a high test cycle. Sorry but I disagree.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Having estrogen within normal range is very much achievable on a high test cycle. Sorry but I disagree.



The question you need to ask is, Do you need or want your Estrogen levels in the normal range when on high Test cycle?  Trust me, there is varying opinions and many reasons for or not for it.  I have researched this until I was blue in the face.  Ask most bodybuilders there opinion.  I understand it is achievable, but why?  He is not going to keep it there forever.  Also, if your Test levels are really high and your Estro is in normal range, you can actually get low estrogen side affects.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

MaineGuy said:


> The question you need to ask is, Do you need or want your Estrogen levels in the normal range when on high Test cycle?  Trust me, there is varying opinions and many reasons for or not for it.  I have researched this until I was blue in the face.  Ask most bodybuilders there opinion.  I understand it is achievable, but why?  He is not going to keep it there forever.  Also, if your Test levels are really high and your Estro is in normal range, you can actually get low estrogen side affects.




Are u serious?


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Are u serious?



Are you just being difficult?  I am just offering you an opinion on the research I have done, you don't have to accept it.  Please tell me you are not one of those people that believe your opinion is the only one?  Anyway, maybe some others that have not spoken will give there input on this.  I was only trying to offer an opinion that has been well accepted by many bodybuilders.  You are on cycle, not on TRT.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

The below quote comes from a very knowledgeable and well respected member on PM.  Remember, there are varying opinions, so you need to research for yourself.

"xcellent info, but remember there is competition between Estrogen and Testosterone.

The "normal" range of E2 needs to be adjusted for the amount of test you are on. For example, if you somehow took enough of an AI to hit 50 estradiol on 1g of test, you would get all sorts of low estrogen side effects (this would require 50mg+ aromasin, no one takes that much anyway). Now if you take 20-25mg of aromasin on 1g of test, you will hit about 100 estradiol, however you will not have any symptoms of estrogentic side effects, even if you are sensitive to them.

Competition between testosterone and estrogen (estradiol) is well known to endocrinologists, and some organic chemists, however it is a vague area. A great example of this effect is in postmenopausal women, when their ovaries stop producing estrogens, they get androgenic side effects from the testosterone produced by their adrenal gland, even though this is the same amount that was produced before menopause.

This competition is thought to be due to co-binding factors at the AR and ER, however again, this is a vague area. I have extensively questioned a rather famous endocrinologist I once met on this issue, Patrick Arnold, and a very smart organic chemist I know, all with very little information forthcoming."


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

MaineGuy said:


> The below quote comes from a very knowledgeable and well respected member on PM.  Remember, there are varying opinions, so you need to research for yourself.
> 
> "xcellent info, but remember there is competition between Estrogen and Testosterone.
> 
> ...



Idiot, where do you get I haven't researched?   

And I'm on over a gram of test and my E2 was in the 60's and I'm not taking 50mgs of aromasin. 

Anybody who tells you that having high estrogen during cycle or anytime is a fucking moron. Period.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

You are quite immature I can tell.  No need to discuss any further with you.  I will make sure and let Kaladryn on PM know you think he is a moron.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

You're going to PM some dude I don't know to start some drama and you're calling me immature?   Wtf?!?!?   Obviously your estrogen is high bro.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

immature, 
I just made a thread on PM about Test to Estrogen ratio if you care to follow it.  Maybe we both might learn something.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> You're going to PM some dude I don't know to start some drama and you're calling me immature?   Wtf?!?!?   Obviously your estrogen is high bro.



No man, PM is Prof Muscle.  Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

Mainegirl, butt the fuck outta thread u fuck.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

Well whoever ur butt friend is u can go tell him.  U have my permission...lol.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

Just trying to convey to you that lowering your Estro anymore with more AI may be doing more harm than good.  That much AI could cause more sides than the Estro.  You though know it all so no need to discuss any further.  Good luck with your cycle.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

Thanks for your input


----------



## Sully (Dec 12, 2013)

After years of reading everything I can find about AAS use and ancillaries, this is the first time I've heard anyone say that you can have sides of low E just by keeping you estrogen in range during a cycle. Sure, there's always the ridiculous bro science argument that says that lowering estrogen while on kills your gains. But, your arguement is a new version I've not heard before. 

Do you have any real scientific data to back up anything your saying, or is it just conjecture from some bros on boards? Is there any valid scientific study of any kind that backs up your claims? If there is, please link to it. Because, on the opposite side if the arguement there is plenty of scientific evidence that shows that having elevated estrogen levels in men for extended periods of time can have a significant long-term negative impact on a man's health. 

And while I agree that 20 points may not be enough to sweat about, it's not my health we're talking about. The OP obviously feels that those 20 points are significant enough to be concerned about, and wants help in getting his numbers within an acceptable range. And ultimately, it's his body and physical health and he has the right to take whatever steps he feels are appropriate to get his numbers where he wants them to be. 

I'm not saying you're wrong Maine, you just don't offer a very compelling argument. Hell, even at the end your arguement the best you could manage was "even a bunch of really well educated experts just really aren't sure."


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

I made my post to give the guy an option, and another opinion.  There is actually information out there that talks about this, some resent seminars with Endocrinologists talking about people on TRT worrying about being out of range, when they may not have to worry.  I do agree with you on the carcinogen affects of Estro, but that is long term.  That high Test number is going to hurt him more than being 20 high on estro during a cycle.  Again, we are not talking long term.  Yes there are links, I will try and find them.  I also started a thread on Prof Muscle if you want to follow.  

Like I said, I was just offering up an opinion on research.  Do you really think the stuff we are putting into our bodies is not worse than a little bit of extra Estrogen?


----------



## mikeystrong (Dec 12, 2013)

MaineGuy said:


> I made my post to give the guy an option, and another opinion.  There is actually information out there that talks about this, some resent seminars with Endocrinologists talking about people on TRT worrying about being out of range, when they may not have to worry.  I do agree with you on the carcinogen affects of Estro, but that is long term.  That high Test number is going to hurt him more than being 20 high on estro during a cycle.  Again, we are not talking long term.  Yes there are links, I will try and find them.  I also started a thread on Prof Muscle if you want to follow.
> 
> Like I said, I was just offering up an opinion on research.  Do you really think the stuff we are putting into our bodies is not worse than a little bit of extra Estrogen?



I think you spent to much time in seminars and classes and not enough time slappin some big ass weights together.


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

mikeystrong said:


> I think you spent to much time in seminars and classes and not enough time slappin some big ass weights together.



Your off base, I'm not the one worrying about being a little off scale on my levels.  Re-read, then go hit the weights


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

MaineGuy said:


> Your off base, I'm not the one worrying about being a little off scale on my levels.  Re-read, then go hit the weights




Damn bro, are you still here?


----------



## BigBob (Dec 12, 2013)

It really seems like AMATEUR MALE cant be civil on a gram of test. maybe your AI is bunk. try toning it down a bit dude. If you wanna have a pissin match take it somewhere else.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

BigBob said:


> It really seems like AMATEUR MALE cant be civil on a gram of test. maybe your AI is bunk. try toning it down a bit dude. If you wanna have a pissin match take it somewhere else.




You want me to butt out of my own thread?   Man the intellect here....good grief people. :banghead:


----------



## BigBob (Dec 12, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> You want me to butt out of my own thread?   Man the intellect here....good grief people. :banghead:



Dude, You own the thread. I was following closely too. I enjoyed it up until you start callin names. Kind of like you did on the other thread where you called the dude a loser because of his opiate use. So from now on Ill just pass over any thing you have to say. Peace Out Bro.


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 12, 2013)

BigBob said:


> Dude, You own the thread. I was following closely too. I enjoyed it up until you start callin names. Kind of like you did on the other thread where you called the dude a loser because of his opiate use. So from now on Ill just pass over any thing you have to say. Peace Out Bro.




Exactly!  My estrogen is high and I'm trying to fix it so I can stop being an ass all while this other dude tells me its ok.  My apologies and i love everybody.

:sHa_grouphug3:

btw, this isnt BigBob from Jacksonville is it?


----------



## MaineGuy (Dec 12, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Exactly!  My estrogen is high and I'm trying to fix it so I can stop being an ass all while this other dude tells me its ok.  My apologies and i love everybody.
> 
> :sHa_grouphug3:
> 
> btw, this isnt BigBob from Jacksonville is it?



Honestly, I think you took me wrong.  I was just trying to let you know there are different opinions on what peoples Estrogen should be at while on cycle.  If you are having sides from high estrogen, by all means get it lowered.  Some people feel shitty if there Test level is high and Estrogen is in normal range, because it may be too low for them.  Maybe I didn't explain well enough, wasn't at all trying to stir any shit.


----------



## BigBob (Dec 12, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Exactly!  My estrogen is high and I'm trying to fix it so I can stop being an ass all while this other dude tells me its ok.  My apologies and i love everybody.
> 
> :sHa_grouphug3:
> 
> btw, this isnt BigBob from Jacksonville is it?



No Its BigBob from NYC. Chill Man Your gonna be OK.


----------



## Magnus82 (Dec 12, 2013)

I think you both make valid points.  Like always,  there is no one size fits all in this game.   If anything needs it's estro lowered,  it's this thread.  Carry on!


----------



## Phoenixk2 (Dec 12, 2013)

Way to much e2 around here. :sSa_cry4:


----------



## BigBob (Dec 12, 2013)

Phoenixk2 said:


> Way to much e2 around here. :sSa_cry4:



LOL. But back to test-estro ratio or balance. As Body builders we do not really want a perfect ratio to achieve our goals. 
However balance is what us older guys or regular people want.
EX: Hormone Balance in Males


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 13, 2013)

Phoenixk2 said:


> Way to much e2 around here. :sSa_cry4:




Youre the receiver….and you know what i mean.


----------



## Sully (Dec 17, 2013)

So what did u decide to do about ur estrogen AM?


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 17, 2013)

Lil' Sully said:


> So what did u decide to do about ur estrogen AM?




I scrapped the suspension and the letro. I'm just taking 25-30mgs of exemestane every day. I will retest after Christmas when I have more money.


----------



## Sully (Dec 17, 2013)

Cool bro. Give us an update when u get it retested.


----------



## The Grim Repper (Dec 17, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> ... after Christmas when I have more money.



Didn't think _that _was possible. LOL


----------



## amateurmale (Dec 17, 2013)

The Grim Repper said:


> Didn't think _that _was possible. LOL



Ha!  That's why I said "after".   I'm totally drained right now.


----------



## The Grim Repper (Dec 17, 2013)

amateurmale said:


> Ha!  That's why I said "after".   I'm totally drained right now.


I hear ya, the holiday debt is the gift that keeps on giving...:banghead:


----------



## CM (Dec 18, 2013)

MaineGuy said:


> You are on a cycle of very high Test.  That estrogen reading is not too high for the amount of Test you are on.  I would not up the AI dose.  Who ever said you have to stay within normal ranges while on cycle, your Test is not in normal range?  You don't want it really high because of sides, if you are not experiencing many sides, then in my opinion you are gtg.



agree sometimes people worry too much @ estro. sometimes mast takes the free t up and that does all that is needed. sometimes adding in something like letro just causes prob. now they are great compounds, but I agree, no sides, leave it alone.


----------

