# Are carbs REALLY needed on REST days?



## J.Lizzle (Aug 6, 2013)

As above...

Rest days are carbs needed?

I know for those with an active job they will be important..but for me and others who sit at a desk from 8 till 5pm...then dont do any other activity really on off days will carbs serve a function?

Reason i ask is im recomping but was gonna increase fats on off days and keep protein moderate as i know fats are important too...

Training days carbs will still be in around the pre, during, post and post post meals/training window.

Basically on rest days id be green veg with meat and good fats with some blueberries or similar so carbs would be under 40-50g which i think will be fine as im not active on off days..

Off days will give me a chance to keep insulin sensitivty high and take yohimbine...maybe look at Metformin?....but never used it so not sure if its worth it..

Cheers


----------



## tripletotal (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm probably gonna get some shit for this reply, but I'm saying it anyway because it's true.

You never need carbs at all.

You can live on fat and protein. Modulate your carbs to create the body composition and growth that you desire. I think you have a good starting point with what you are saying in your post.

Don't be afraid to experiment, though. It's uncommon to get it just right the first time. Observe how your body responds, keep researching, and keep honing in on what works for you.

Some terms to google if you haven't already: Lyle McDonald, keifer, timed carbohydrate diet, Carb backloading, Carb nite solution, intermittent fasting


----------



## Marshall (Aug 7, 2013)

I'll agree with you Triple T, but I do believe to obtain the kind of size most of the guys on here are looking for, carbs are needed based around training.


----------



## AtomAnt (Aug 7, 2013)

Triple, I am with you but there must be a distinction between NEED and PREFERRED.  

The body can derive glucose from amino acids (gluconeogenesis) when carbs are not present but carbohydrates are protein sparing and help with the control of cortisol levels.  If some carbs are present protein can be used to rebuild muscle tissue and prevents excessive cortisol and this is important because elevated cortisol reduces protein synthesis (Effects of Cortisol on Carbohydrate, Lipid, and Protein Metabolism: Studies of Acute Cortisol Withdrawal in Adrenocortical Failure). To say how many carbohydrates are needed remains in question because individual metabolic and lifestyle factors will play a role.

Additionally, keep in mind that be having carbohydrates on training days you are filling your glycogen stores and those carbohydrates can be used, and will likely be used, before amino acids and fats are broken down for energy.  

Also, take a look at ketogenic diets.  People still function at high levels on keto diets, and I have used them personally with great success.  But can you build muscle at an optimal rate on a ketogenic diet? I doubt it.  IMO, the problem I think many people have with keto diets is getting into ketosis.  Once in ketosis you body is going to derive energy from sources besides carbohydrates (proteins and fats), but until you reach that point you body is still trying suck up energy from carbs and the hormones are not balanced.  Once in ketosis and hormones balance out, then mood and energy levels seem to improve.  Once you body switches over to ketones as the source of energy, then the discussion over whether carbs are needed isn't as relevant because your body has become efficient on a new fuel source.  If you are consuming sufficient calories and are in ketosis cortisol levels should not become significantly elevated as noted by the protein sparing effect of ketosis. Furthermone, glutamine may be used to help control cortisol (studies show mixed results... I am in favor of it).

So in general, if you are consuming carbs on training days, cortisol will not get out of hand and you'll recover fine despite not having carbs on off days.  By providing the body with adequate carbohydrates on training days to facilitate glycogen re-synthesis and halt catabolic processes you will recover and allow amino acids to do their job in rebuilding muscle tissue.  On off days although you do not need carbohydrates, depending on energy levels and how you feel, you may want to include some carbohydrates to ensure you are functioning at optimal levels mentally and physically.  

I hope that makes some sense, I really got rambling....

EDIT: Just wanted to let you know what I do.  On off-days, which lately have been nil, I only eat some pineapple with a few meals.  This would come out to about 40g carbs.  I am not including carbs from things like nuts and avocados or veggies in that total.


----------



## J.Lizzle (Aug 7, 2013)

Thanks guys-
Will be greens and some blueberries on off days, will be 40g or so.

Some awesome responses


----------



## AtomAnt (Aug 7, 2013)

J.Lizzle said:


> Thanks guys-
> Will be greens and some blueberries on off days, will be 40g or so.
> 
> Some awesome responses



J, I know you are over on Pro Muscle and posted this thread there as well.  

I honestly don't respond there because of how pretty some people are.  I just went through that thread and the more knowledgeable guys on there said things similar to what I wrote but then you have people who say "But I....." and in all honesty much of what they say is irrelevant.  For as complicated as the subject is, you can break it down pretty to the basics.

-Carbs around your workout to optimize growth and recovery.
-Reduce carbs when the body is not in need of the energy or needs them to facilitate recovery.
-Eat a diet rich in healthy fats with sufficient protein and have sufficient caloric intake to provide the nutrients to repair tissue and to be used as energy and keep a hormonal balance
-Follow a consistent eating schedule as that has shown to help regulate metabolism.
-Without the presence of carbs, the body can use other energy sources as fuel, therefore if bodyfat is increasing one may decrease carbohydrate intake without suffering a lack in performance
-Use carbs as a tool to reach your physique goal and manipulate as needed.


----------



## Enigmatic707 (Aug 7, 2013)

Another more "broad" point to take into account is how much carbs we taken the day before on your training day? 

Where you "carb saturated"? In the sense that were your glycogen stores completely filled in both skeletal muscle and in the liver? We're you running a surplus of carbs?

I think aside from a general prescription- you have to take into account how much anabolism is taking place on your off days and what your workouts were like before your rest days. 

Just because its an off day doesn't mean there isn't a ton of anabolism occurring which would require a certain amount of carbs in order to keep it going.


I'll make a point that is one of inference- ever since I've started to eat pretty much the same on my off days as my hardcore training days I've made more constant gains than I ever have in the past because my recovery is much shorter which allows me the ability to get more heavy days in per week.


----------



## tripletotal (Aug 7, 2013)

Great responses, guys...glad I could get the ball rolling! Lots of good info.

I agree with need vs. prefer. I think the OP said need, so I was responding to that.

TT


----------



## Humana (Aug 8, 2013)

I don't know if they are needed or not, but, I have found in my own trial and error dieting that I have my best workouts and recovery and growth or cutting when carbs are present in my diet.  Off season I add carbs to almost every meal except last meal or two depending on whether it's leg day, upper body day or off day.  

Leg day I consume more calories, prot, carbs, little less fat
Uppder body day I consume a tad lower calories, protein, carbs, little more fats.
Off day I consume even lower calories, lower protein, very low carbs (50g-75g), high fats, 90g and up all from fat in beef, chicken, whole eggs, EVCO. 

I prefer John Meadows philosophies in my dieting strategy and it works for me.  

My advice is to always experiment on yourself...  keep diet and training journals and it really helps narrow down what works for you.  Stay on a regimen for two weeks or so and evaluate and go from there.


----------



## J.Lizzle (Aug 8, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Another more "broad" point to take into account is how much carbs we taken the day before on your training day?
> 
> Where you "carb saturated"? In the sense that were your glycogen stores completely filled in both skeletal muscle and in the liver? We're you running a surplus of carbs?
> 
> ...



Cheers buddy.
I've just gotta wait till I'm very lean before I add in extra carbs on off days. 

The only other thing I can think of is just having carbs in last meal for a non training day...as I'll be pro/fat all day then again meal 1 and 2  on a training day is pro/fat too....so that will be like a day and a half no carbs...


----------



## J.Lizzle (Aug 8, 2013)

tripletotal said:


> Great responses, guys...glad I could get the ball rolling! Lots of good info.
> 
> I agree with need vs. prefer. I think the OP said need, so I was responding to that.
> 
> TT



True. The carbs I consume on training days are gonna keeep my glycogen stores full anyway on a non training day as there in my last 3 meals


----------



## AtomAnt (Aug 8, 2013)

Humana said:


> I don't know if they are needed or not, but, I have found in my own trial and error dieting that I have my best workouts and recovery and growth or cutting when carbs are present in my diet.  Off season I add carbs to almost every meal except last meal or two depending on whether it's leg day, upper body day or off day.
> 
> Leg day I consume more calories, prot, carbs, little less fat
> Uppder body day I consume a tad lower calories, protein, carbs, little more fats.
> ...



And BINGO. Along the lines what I was saying, John focuses carbs around training, increases intra-workout nutrition on heavy days, decreases on light days and pump days, and reduced carbs and overall kcals on off-days.

Humana, I think our difference is that I prefer to keep carbs at a minimum during the day until pre-workout period. A diet full of nutrient rich foods and healthy fats works great for me and I don't need a ton of carbs to feel good, just use them to facilitate recovery.  I honestly feel better from eating a high protein high fat meal than a protein/carb meal.


----------



## J.Lizzle (Aug 15, 2013)

bumping this again


----------

