# Controlling water retention on Deca



## powermad (Feb 14, 2006)

Guys, just procured some Deca and am wanting to add it to my cycle.  Right now i'm on 1g test E+600EQ per week.  I am adding the deca for joint relief and to add some muscle. 
When I do add the Deca, I will use between 3-400mg/wk and drop the EQ dose down to the same.  Test will remain at 1g/wk or maybe go down a little to 750mg.
OR I can keep the test and drop the EQ in place of Deca; 1g test and 600mg deca/wk.  Any comments/questions on this are welcome.


My question is how can I control the water retention/gyno from deca?  I'm sensitive to estrogenic sides and gyno, I use an AI such as arimidex at .5mg EOD or femara at 1.25 EOD with the test and EQ.  I don't mind a little water weight on the deca, I know it loads the joints with synovial fluid and do not wish to interfere too much with that.

i've heard suggestions of cabergoline and nolva.  I have every anxillary except Cabergoline/dostinex and bromo.  

Can anyone share how to reduce the h20 that Deca cuases in a lot of people?  I just want to use enough for therapeutic effects, not over 400mg pwer week--anyone konw if it is even a problem at that dose?

I will admit the EQ has helped w/ my shoulder pain and elbow tendonitis since i've been taking it but I just homebrewed some deca and am hoping to get a little better results.  Just worried a little about permanent gyno or gaining a lot of fat (some is ok).

Thanks guys.


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## wolfyEVH (Feb 14, 2006)

i'd be more worried about the 1gram of test causing the bloat bro....besides, you cant point out and say "oh thats the deca giving me that bloat"......just keep taking an AI and you'll be fine


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## powermad (Feb 14, 2006)

wolfyEVH said:
			
		

> i'd be more worried about the 1gram of test causing the bloat bro....besides, you cant point out and say "oh thats the deca giving me that bloat"......just keep taking an AI and you'll be fine



WEVH--thank you for replying.

I have zero bloat right now on test e 1g/wk and EQ 600mg/wk.  I'm taking a-dex every other day and that is working.

And Yes, I CAN SAY, "oh that's deca giving me the bloat" if I start to gain water weight or get gyno..  I made it very clear in my original post what I'm already on EQ and Test +arimidex to control the estrogenic sides.  So if I add something new and it causes a change I'll know it was due to the "new" member of my cycle. 

I've read a lot of info on deca's effects on aldosterone, progesterone, and its supposedly "super powerful" estrogenic effects.  Many people and "gurus" who write articles mention that AI's will not stop or prevent deca-induced h20 retention or gyno.  Some mention that winstrol will prevent deca gyno and possibly water retention.  Ditto for the drug Dostinex.  There seems to be a lot of conflicting info out there which is why i'm asking.

I did a search on this board and came up with little.  Input/feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


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## wolfyEVH (Feb 14, 2006)

powermad said:
			
		

> WEVH--thank you for replying.
> 
> I have zero bloat right now on test e 1g/wk and EQ 600mg/wk.  I'm taking a-dex every other day and that is working.
> 
> ...



well you seem to be the "expert" on it bro...just telling you the truth....

if you looked hard enough, you'd realize deca aromatizes at a rate 1/5 to that of testosterone.  and you'd also know that progesterone, or any progesterogenic activity can't really do anything w/o adequate amounts of estrogen to begin with.  so taking an AI (as you already are) you don't have to worry about this so called "deca gyno".

most importantly, bloat is mainly determined on fluid intake, sodium intake, carb intake (your diet) more than an anabolic compound.


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## DecaDude (Feb 14, 2006)

Actually, Deca can cause rather complicated gyno related problems which are quite difficult to address.

I have included Winni in a stack that has Deca.  Here is  a little blurb I found which you may deem helpful....




Progestins

The presence of progesterone in male bodybuilders is through the use of the progestins, i.e. Oxymetholone (Anadrol, Anapolan50), Trenbolone (Finaject, Parabolan) and Nandrolone (Deca durabolin). A large problem for the bodybuilder is that the symptoms displayed by progesterone are identical to those of oestrogen, but the concurrent use of the typical anti-oestrogens appears to have no effect in controlling or treating it.

Progesterone tends to aggravate oestrogen induced gyno symptoms, making them more difficult to cure. We will look at some methods of avoiding or controlling them, bearing in mind that progesterone actually requires oestrogen presence to activate it in the first place.

Use with non-aromatising steroids
If progesterone requires oestrogen presence to activate it, then one method of avoiding this would be to use the progestins in stacks with non-aromatising steroids. Amazingly heavy androgenic steroids like Anadrol and Trenbolone are exceptionally mild and safe with regard to female characteristics when used in conjunction with non-aromatising steroids like Primobolan or Winstrol. This is great news for the gyno-prone individual who has previously avoided these stronger steroids for fear of gyno development.



Winstrol

The use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.

I concur with Wolfy that AI's will help with water retention. (but address the gyno bro, or you'll have bigger fish to fry post cycle)


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## mandarb11 (Feb 14, 2006)

What Wolfy said though was through the control of estrogen through arimidex, the progeston gyno will be little to nothing due to its need to have high levels of estrogen in the system. In other words by taking the anti-E it is the same as taking a non aromatizing steroid like winstrol (only not in addition to test), but since you are using test which does aromatize quite readily, adding winstrol would not block this aromatization, you are already acheiving this with arimidex! I am currently taking 825mg of Andropen (BD's version of Sustenon) and am very defined with muscle striations emerging everywhere. The reason for this is that I have been restricting my diet which is allowing for solid muscle and strength gains. So diet is probably the biggest consideration in trying to acheive whatever your goals are. Limiting water retention, as Wolfy already said, can be controlled through:

"most importantly, bloat is mainly determined on fluid intake, sodium intake, carb intake (your diet) more than an anabolic compound."


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## DecaDude (Feb 14, 2006)

Quite right.  In the perfect world I would agree with this approach.  However, Arimidex is so effective that without bloodtests it is extremely difficult to gauge dosing.  Too much and you risk shutting down andro. receptors (who need estrogent to keep active), too little and you risk having an aggravated progesterone situation.

I strongly believe in putting Stanozolol in a progestin cycle.

Only my opinion in a world where we don't have access to all the tests we really need.  Maybe in a few more years.


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## wolfyEVH (Feb 14, 2006)

DecaDude said:
			
		

> Quite right.  In the perfect world I would agree with this approach.  However, Arimidex is so effective that without bloodtests it is extremely difficult to gauge dosing.  Too much and you risk shutting down andro. receptors (who need estrogent to keep active), too little and you risk having an aggravated progesterone situation.
> 
> I strongly believe in putting Stanozolol in a progestin cycle.
> 
> Only my opinion in a world where we don't have access to all the tests we really need.  Maybe in a few more years.



you know the whole winny and "anti-progesterone abilities" is all anecdotal evidence, right??

as for estrogen and ARs, there is really a more important part of estrogen in the male body.  estrogen increases GH, improved glucose utilization, and the positive effects it has on cholesterol.  yes it does help upgrade the ARs, but to a much smaller degree than androgens themselves do.  The quantity of ARs in the body increase drastically when someone takes steroids.  If your ARs got shutdown w/ lack of estrogen, then explain how people could gains muscle when they took a "tren" only cycle...(something that doesn't aromatizes as well has something that shuts down the HPTA hard). 

These examples are why I prefer arimidex over letro.  Letro is so powerful that mcg's have been known to completely eliminate estrogen.  Go w/ something like liquidex and you'll eliminate most of the estrogen conversion, but still keep a bit in the body for the positive effects.  The ability of the nor-tests to attach to progesterone receptors and do their thing won't really be a problem w/ minimal estrogen in the body.  Basically, keep your estrogen in check, and don't worry about the progestins (deca/tren)....

also, drol has been shown to have barely ANY progesterogenic activity at all....dbol had more in a study i read....


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## powermad (Feb 14, 2006)

wolfyEVH said:
			
		

> well you seem to be the "expert" on it bro...just telling you the truth....
> 
> if you looked hard enough, you'd realize deca aromatizes at a rate 1/5 to that of testosterone.  and you'd also know that progesterone, or any progesterogenic activity can't really do anything w/o adequate amounts of estrogen to begin with.  so taking an AI (as you already are) you don't have to worry about this so called "deca gyno".
> 
> most importantly, bloat is mainly determined on fluid intake, sodium intake, carb intake (your diet) more than an anabolic compound.



I never proclaimed myself an expert.   The point I was emphasizing was that, since I'm already taking an AI+TEST+EQ with no bloat--if I add in Deca w/o changing anything else and start to bloat then I'll know Deca is responsible.  Don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

Anyway, I have done plenty of research on deca but he literature on the net varies from author to author.  One profile claims it converts to estrogen (or nor-estrogen) at a high rate.  Dragon Rider and Anthony Roberts disagree and estimate the conversion at 20% (or 1/5th like you said, which is speculative).   I have nolva and arimidex/letrozole on hand w/ caberogline on the way, which should cover all the bases.

Personally, I don't think that an aromatase inhibitor along with test and deca will prevent bloating/gyno.  I also know that progesterone doesn't do much, in theory, when very little estrogen is present in the body.  BUT you must consider that Arimidex doesn't completely eliminate estrogen, even in individuals who aren't taking exogenous aromatizing AAS.  So there is always a chance of deca's progesteronic effects.  This is what I am mainly worried about.  

I'd much rather share info/opinions than argue/fight.  I never claimed to be an expert on any AAS and I've done research on most all AAS and other related drugs.  So lets chill on teh passive agressive behavior... I am very appreciative of your help and comments.  I simply disagree with your statement about me not being able to tell if Deca caused me to bloat up after I began taking it.  IMO, since I'm using test/eq/arimidex and have no gyno or h20 retention--if I add Deca and start to bloat, what else would cause it besides the Deca?

And I'm completely with you on the winstrol thing--It is just a theory made up by Bruce Kneller, William Llewellyn or someone who work(ed) for T-mag way back in the day.

Peace.


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## jabo1jabo1 (Feb 14, 2006)

bro - be careful w/ letro, a complete lack of estrogen can thrown your good and bad cholesterol levels off the chart, and not in a good way.


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## wolfyEVH (Feb 14, 2006)

powermad said:
			
		

> IMO, since I'm using test/eq/arimidex and have no gyno or h20 retention--if I add Deca and start to bloat, what else would cause it besides the Deca?




your diet....

not to mention, you must remember that deca has a much stronger binding affinity to the AR than test or eq......that will alter the testosterones and eq's actions in your body possibly making increased bloat from the extra test/eq thats floating around in your body as the deca is latching onto the AR much longer and stronger...

basically, just keep taking an AI and thats all you need....if you're still "bloating" then look at your diet, increase the AI intake or its just how you personally respond to steroids


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## powermad (Feb 14, 2006)

jabo1jabo1 said:
			
		

> bro - be careful w/ letro, a complete lack of estrogen can thrown your good and bad cholesterol levels off the chart, and not in a good way.



Thanks for the heads up, jabo1jabo.  I'm actually just taking arimidex right now, sorry if my posts weren't clear on that.  I do have letro on hand just in case I run out of dex and can't get more for some reason.  Also, just in case the arimidex isn't strong enough (highly unlikely) I always can turn to the more powerful Femara.  I've used it in the past and honestly saw little difference between it and a-dex.  At 1.25mg(1/2 a pill) EOD Femara takes most if not all the water retention when using high doses of aromatizing AAS, but Arimidex does this at .5mg (half a pill) EOD as well.  Sometimes I'll purposely go 2 to 3 days (or sometimes even longer) just to see how much water I would be retaining w/o it.  

I do understand that very low estrogen is unhealthy in various ways.  I'm not completely free of water retention right now, I'm taking enough arimidex just to keep the moonface and gyno away--as a powerlifter, strength is #1 concern and estrogen is good for that.  Keeping my muscles full of glycogen and water for better leverage, not having dried out joints, and bone density are necessary when training with maximal intensity (i.e. percentage of one's 1 rep max) and dynamic effort/plyometrics on a regular basis.

Anyways, thank you for the insight.


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## DecaDude (Feb 15, 2006)

> not having dried out joints, and bone density are



Deca will really help with the joints.

Your points are well taken, Wolfy, but I've read many different reports indicating that Winni helps with preventing progesterone induced gyno.

I think power knows his body's natural ability to hold water. Sodium sensitivity etc...  But unless I'm mistaken, Deca does make you retain water regardless of the AE's you ingest.  Just the nature of this AS, has no Adrogenic properties...

Anyhoo, I think we're all splitting hairs, me included.  I'll let you know that with or without the Arimidex, I've not had ANY Gyno symptoms... I really don't know what makes someone "sensitive" to gyno? how can that be? What are the mechanisms?

plus, don't piss off Wolfy, I like his movies too much (heh heh)


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## powermad (Feb 26, 2006)

wolfyEVH said:
			
		

> your diet....
> 
> not to mention, you must remember that deca has a much stronger binding affinity to the AR than test or eq......that will alter the testosterones and eq's actions in your body possibly making increased bloat from the extra test/eq thats floating around in your body as the deca is latching onto the AR much longer and stronger...
> 
> basically, just keep taking an AI and thats all you need....if you're still "bloating" then look at your diet, increase the AI intake or its just how you personally respond to steroids



Thanks.  GOod info, too bad I had to stop my cycle at wk 10 due to my hernia repair failing and needing another surgery.

So an aromatase-inhibitor WILL do the job of keeping DECA gyno/bloat at bay....hmmm...I've been researching that and found mixed opinions.   The diet point makes sense--deca seems to affect aldosterone levels more than most AAS from what I've researched, meaning I might (or may have) want to watch sodium intake during deca/test/eq.

In future cycles w/ deca I will use an aromatase inhibitor because I am extremely sensitive to estrogen's gyno and fluid/fat retention effects.  

Thank you again for the info, BTW--are you on megadose test or halo or did I just rub you the wrong way?


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## DecaDude (Feb 26, 2006)

Been on a load of Deca/Test.Cyp and had no gyno probs whatsoever. taking .25mg/EOD of Arimidex, though.

Good luck.  I really like deca.


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## stealthmeister (Feb 26, 2006)

Lots of good info. in this thread on the deca / winny / progesterone / estro., etc. issues that Wolfy and I have had an extensive discussion / thread on in the past as well.

I think we all agree with most of the principles above, and agree that we tend to be "splitting hairs" on the finer points. The fact is, though, that we all respond to any medications, AAS included, in an individual way. I agree with Powermad that if you were stable on a mix of agents, then added something and see a side effect, seems intuitive to blame the newly added agent, as with juggling any medications. I think this is the reality of AAS being driven underground by making them illegal. They should be legal and studied extensively in controlled trial and side effects addressed, etc. There is just so much anecdotal info. out there (eg. winny as an anti-progesterone) that there is obviously some credibility to these things for certain individual users. However, it would be interesting to have studies of large series of patients on these things to examine / review how clinically valid they actually are, the extent of benefits, side effects, etc. Making AAS use illegal is dangerous. Study it, learn about it, and address side effects for those that chose to use them anyways, after being informed of the risks. That's my .02.


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## mr.nitrofish (Mar 1, 2006)

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