# Homebrew impure non steroidal powder?



## muscleboundfool (Aug 11, 2013)

Was told to post this here from Pro Muscle

Background: I have been trying to lower myostatin for years trying all types of things such as Shrna, follistatin, cdna, megadose HDACs, HMB, Broccoli, mustard seeds, humanofort etc. to no avail.

Study:
I actually read a post of mine years back about EGCG and a pubmed study showing that i EGCG (from green tea) inhibits Smad3 and promotes Smad7 signalling. From what I understand myostatin exerts it's negative effect on muscle growth via Smad3 signalling, and Smad7 actually inhibits myostatin activity.

Problem:
Back then (2010) I gave up due to the fact that oral bioavailability was low and the amount needed would be toxic. I would need about 4 grams orally of pure EGCG each day.

Solution:
I never considered home brewing and just recently read up on it. I was always scared of infection but learned from my readings here as long as you are somewhat clean there will be no problems. Heck rec users use cigarette filters and cotton.

So now I thought why not make an injectable. I would only need about 400mg a day.

Questions:
Is finding out the concentration just trial and error? I know EGCG compared to testosterone has a high molecular weight and high melting point.
But Testosterone which is non polar can still be made in high concentrations by some of the vets here. I would need to get 100-400 mg/ml. I only know once place that sells it and at only 10mg/ml. Any advice on how to brew this stuff?

The best I can find is powders at 50% purity of EGCG. The other compounds seem to be tolerable in the dosage needed. Does anyone see any harm in this? As long as the powder in run though a .22 whatman to remove the bacteria and small particles would this be fine? If you google EGCG and look at the labels, I do not see any harmful or fatal amounts of substance to inject.

Any comments? I can log this if it interests anyone. I am surprised this has not been done and leads me to ask here to see if I am missing something. I am thinking even if it doesn't work it can make an amazing fat burner.

Thanks for reading the long post.


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## solegenius (Aug 13, 2013)

Seems quite risky. Solubility looks to be poor in an oil suspension and might crash. And even in water or ethanol it's 20mg/ml. I'd also be concerned what that other 50% is.


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 13, 2013)

solegenius said:


> Seems quite risky. Solubility looks to be poor in an oil suspension and might crash. And even in water or ethanol it's 20mg/ml. I'd also be concerned what that other 50% is.



Well I found a place that can sell 90% EGCG. 

Is it possible using any type of solvent or PEG to get a concentration to even 100mg/ml?

I was even thinking of a transdermal carrier but since EGCG has a high molecular weight, I would never be sure the true bio availability.

Is this something that can't be done? I was hoping to test the EGCG and myostatin theory.


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 13, 2013)

What is egcg?.   So u are trying to homebrew  myostatin?.  Please.tell me you work in a lab and not just doing kitchen sink chemistry.. why not buy premade?


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 13, 2013)

Ironbuilt said:


> What is egcg?.   So u are trying to homebrew  myostatin?.  Please.tell me you work in a lab and not just doing kitchen sink chemistry.. why not buy premade?



Egcg is not myostatin. It is an antioxidant that helps lower myostatin. If you can find me a pre made, I am sold. Only one place that I know of sells it and at 10 mg/ml. I would need at the very least 100 mg/ml.

I would need 4 g pure egcg for the dose needed orally. The problem is it is toxic at doses above a gram. I can try using acetic drinks for better absorption but that is up in the air.

Injectable dose I would only need 400 mg a day which is way below the toxic threshold and avoids first pass.

Transdermal could be an option but it is above the recommended size for great absorption, so dosing will be too inaccurate.

Honestly I never did home brew and would probably pay a source to do it. Any takers? I just want to make sure it is possible as most people just memorize the how but have no clue of the why. 

Since one powder is not another and with no one ever home brewing this before, I thought this would be the place.

So far on all the boards I posted this I received no help; so I assuming this is above the novice home brewer or not possible.


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## [email protected] (Aug 14, 2013)

How would you know if it is effective? Are you going to run blood tests to see?


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 15, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> How would you know if it is effective? Are you going to run blood tests to see?



I think you are putting the cart before the horse. If it is not possible to home brew this at a high enough concentration then this will be a no go.

Still hoping this can be done. I am all ears.


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 15, 2013)

Ok..have you buy chance asked on like a chemistry forum.?.ive never in my years have heard of homebrew egcg.. Sorry im no help.. any chemist in the house please stand up..ib


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2013)

A quick google shows that egcg melting point is close to that of winstrol and not far off (230c egec, 240c winstrol. give or take a few deg'c), so any recipe that holds winstrol should theoreticly hold egcg so imo you best be is to go for 50mg/ml max

Which is going to be a high guaiacol %+ eo carrier.

Anadrol is around the same melting point temp also, and I needed 40% guaiacol + eo carrier to hold 75mg/ml.

So 400mg per day your looking at a min of 8ml injections per day at 50mg/ml plus that's a lot of guaiacol to pin in you per day, week, months etc.

Only other option is a suspension to use less guaiacol say 10-20% which I can imagine will sting like fuk 8ml of that per day.

Iv not used peg so can't comment on that, from what iv read its not a nice solvent to use, can cause swelling and high pain upto 5days after a single injection of it, plus its tissue distroying at the site apparently. Say you got it to hold 100mg/ml that's still nearly 30ml per week your injecting.


If it was me and I was going to attempt this experiment I'd go for an oil based suspension, low guaicol and less sting from water or peg brews. If you use MCT oil which is basicly synthol, you could use it as a seo also if your into that, if not then just use gso or eo.


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 16, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> A quick google shows that egcg melting point is close to that of winstrol and not far off (230c egec, 240c winstrol. give or take a few deg'c), so any recipe that holds winstrol should theoreticly hold egcg so imo you best be is to go for 50mg/ml max
> 
> Which is going to be a high guaiacol %+ eo carrier.
> 
> ...



Hmm good advice. I see a lot of pro con here.

I don't know much about guaicol but I hear it is painful inject.  Is guaicol viscious or would I need a good amount of BB to avoid crystals. Winstrol I hear is a painful inject and that is just 50mg/ml a day. I would be doing 400mg/ml a day.

 The problem with MCT or any oil is the quantity and the pin size. I can imagine I will run out of injection sites real quick with that many mls of oil and a 25g. 2ml used to be a stretch. Also keep in mind the highest purity I can find is 90%. Most places are at 50%. So I will need a larger amount of ml a day.

I don't mind the initial sting. I just don't want bruising and running out of sites.  Water based would be ideal for the quantity and the smaller pin size but I can see myself being a pin cushion. Would a suspension with low guaicol and high poly80 alleviate some of the pain? Problem with water based and pins and I hear water based is a much higher risk of infection?

Any other suggestions? Ive seen some people make 650mg/ml test e painless. 

I can also see this getting expensive as with the amount of mls needed I would probably either ask a lab (if they do such a thing) or a reputable source. I would rather leave this to the pros as risk of infection increases with each ml daily.


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 16, 2013)

Where u readin egcg nuke and now i want some so pm me where to look at it.


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2013)

muscleboundfool said:


> Hmm good advice. I see a lot of pro con here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Test'e is painless because its hard to crash because its melting point is about 30c so you can make high mg/ml test'e also eq and deca, but not tren'e, mast.e which is about 190c and winstrol, anadrol around 240c same as eceg.

guaiacol is a super potent solvent stronger than bb.

But I still think you will struggle to get over 50mg/ml, you will need high solvents to make that into a solution anyway


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2013)

Ironbuilt said:


> Where u readin egcg nuke and now i want some so pm me where to look at it.




I just googled dude, I will send the link tho.


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 18, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Test'e is painless because its hard to crash because its melting point is about 30c so you can make high mg/ml test'e also eq and deca, but not tren'e, mast.e which is about 190c and winstrol, anadrol around 240c same as eceg.
> 
> guaiacol is a super potent solvent stronger than bb.
> 
> But I still think you will struggle to get over 50mg/ml, you will need high solvents to make that into a solution anyway



Only mentioned BB because I know it is vicious. I wasn't sure if the super solvent was like BA and quickly disperses causing pain.

The only solvent I know that holds a lot is peg but it can be ruthless on tissue.

EGCG seemed promising on not just myostatin but also health, wellness and fatloss. I guess this is why I never pursued this back in 2010 when I posted this on M&M

So it looks like this can't be done unless there is another way but oral will cause toxicity, trandermal poor due to weight and inject would be too many mls a day. From Nukes answer 50 mg/ml is a stretch and that is nowhere near the amount needed.


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 18, 2013)

Bummer..


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2013)

Did you no egcg was in high concentrations in green tea op?

1gram of pure green tea had 180mg egcg, the standard dose of green tea is 3g per cup, so 8cups is over 4g egcg per day.

Matcha grade green tea is the standard to use I think that's classed as grade2, grade 1 is moe expensive.

Matcha green tea on ebay is around $50 for 600g

Or usda certified (dono what that means) 80g for $10 


http://www.amazing-green-tea.com/egcg-content-in-green-tea.html


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 19, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Did you no egcg was in high concentrations in green tea op?
> 
> 1gram of pure green tea had 180mg egcg, the standard dose of green tea is 3g per cup, so 8cups is over 4g egcg per day.
> 
> ...



Not sure if you are looking at pure leaves but "Most of the research showing the health benefits of green tea is based on the amount of green tea typically consumed in Asian countries—about 3 cups per day (which would provide 240-320 mg of polyphenols). Just one cup of green tea supplies 20-35 mg of EGCG, which has the highest antioxidant activity of all the green tea catechins."

Price and quantity is not an issue here. I can get kilos of EGCG at a very low price. The problem is after bioavailability. Apparently only up to 10 percent of egcg gets into the blood after digestion and liver clearance.

Due to this there are studies showing toxicity in high doses.

"Green tea is good for you, but only if drunk in moderation. While the polyphenols in green tea are credited with preventing heart disease and cancer, it seems they can cause liver and kidney damage if consumed in very large quantities, a review of studies into the toxicity of polyphenols has shown.

"People shouldn't be too alarmed by this, but those taking supplements may experience problems," says lead author Chung Yang of Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
He stresses that up to 10 small cups of green tea a day is fine. Problems are likely in people who take supplements, which can contain up to 50 times as much polyphenol as a single cup of tea.

Yang's review cites experiments in which rodents and dogs died from liver poisoning when given very large doses of polyphenols. He also reports cases of people with liver toxicity after overdosing on green-tea-based supplements. Their symptoms disappeared when they stopped taking the pills, only to return when they started taking them again (Chemical Research in Toxicology, vol 20, p 583).

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1964900

Case reports on the toxic effects of green tea extracts in humans are also beginning to emerge. “To date, there have been nine anecdotal case reports of liver toxicity in humans associated with consumption of high doses [700–2,000 mg/day] of green tea from dietary supplements,” s

To get 400mg into the blood I would need close to 4 grams of  EGCG a day. I am sure there will also be a lot of other polyphenols in the extract.  Most tea extracts are 50% EGCG unless I go Teavigo which is 90%.

If it worked I would be taking this everyday for the rest of my life. As you can see injections of only 400mg a day would keep me well below the toxic dose and avoid first pass of the liver.


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## [email protected] (Aug 19, 2013)

Ah ryt cool dude. Just thought I might have found something lol. Erm yeh looks like your only choice it to make an injection.

Its weird because another thread on here a guy has made 100mg/ml l-carnitine which has a high melting point also 190c I think and his injection is holding in bac water alone, which I don't understand but his is holding, so probably bet to order some in and experiment, if it will hold in bac water then your laughing.

It might be that antioxidants etc are water soluble so the melting point in there dry state is meaninless.

Iv not checked but I'm sure egcg will be water soluble because that's how it comes out of the tea leaves into the water? Plus is if wasn't water soluble wouldn't u have particles when the water is cold.

I think its possible you will get an injection in bac water 0.9% ba +water alone.


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## [email protected] (Aug 19, 2013)

http://novawavesoftware.com/info3/solubility-of-egcg-in-water.html

Egcg is very water soluble so imo you bac-water should work.

You will probably need to heat the water to help it disolve like you would sugar, then let it cool, check it doesn't crystalise, then filter is that I would try.

It has a ph of 7.2 according to that website so you should feel no pip other than some from the ba if you go for a higher % than 0.9-2%


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 19, 2013)

Send me a sack ..ill make and research it..i.drink  a gallon of strong green tea i sun brew eod.. i use in pre work stims or even whey shakes....


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## [email protected] (Aug 19, 2013)

Ironbuilt said:


> Send me a sack ..ill make and research it..i.drink  a gallon of strong green tea i sun brew eod.. i use in pre work stims or even whey shakes....




How many grams do you use per day dude is it the loose green tea u make?


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 20, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> solubility of egcg in water
> 
> Egcg is very water soluble so imo you bac-water should work.
> 
> ...



From reading the article "Caffeine is very soluble in water; tea polyphenols are not. ... For example, CO2 leaves complete approximately 95% of the original EGCG content of green tea."

The only place I found it it was at 10 mg/ml. Who was the guy that got 100 mg/ml maybe he can help me out?


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 20, 2013)

Ironbuilt said:


> Send me a sack ..ill make and research it..i.drink  a gallon of strong green tea i sun brew eod.. i use in pre work stims or even whey shakes....



I think he is exaggerating with a gallon.

If you can make me some I am in. I would rather a expert do this then a novice like me mess it up.

Since this is not illegal, if anyone wants to assist, I am game.


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## [email protected] (Aug 20, 2013)

muscleboundfool said:


> From reading the article "Caffeine is very soluble in water; tea polyphenols are not. ... For example, CO2 leaves complete approximately 95% of the original EGCG content of green tea."
> 
> 
> 
> The only place I found it it was at 10 mg/ml. Who was the guy that got 100 mg/ml maybe he can help me out?




It wasn't egcg it was l-carnitine, its a few threads down from this 1 dude.


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## [email protected] (Aug 20, 2013)

muscleboundfool said:


> I think he is exaggerating with a gallon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




All you need to do is get it to dissolve then filter it. If its not water soluble then your going to need guaiacol and eo as you would high melting point aas and at 240c I'd say 50mg/ml will be tour max, you probably could hold 100mg/ml but with a stupid amount of guaiacol which you realy don't want to use.


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## [email protected] (Aug 20, 2013)

Do you know what the molecular weight of egcg is? You could try to dissolve it in peg, but peg can cause and probably will cause high pip and swelling for upto 5days after injection.

Edit just found this site, its MW is 458 so you would need peg 400-600

Also this site says its soluble in water upto 5mg/ml.

You could try peg instead of water.

http://www.herbs-tech.com/product/egcg.asp


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 20, 2013)

I just made green tea .lol  yes a gallon as its hot out and it tastes good..i use 1/4 cup loose tea till its baked dark greenbrown in the  sun..thus the word sun tea was invented...


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## [email protected] (Aug 20, 2013)

Ironbuilt said:


> I just made green tea .lol  yes a gallon as its hot out and it tastes good..i use 1/4 cup loose tea till its baked dark greenbrown in the  sun..thus the word sun tea was invented...




Do you drink out of a chawan and use a bamboo whisk aswell? I think I will, might taste better than a mug and spoon lol, also do you drink the actual loose tea?
Iv seen some use a tea strainer but I think it will be better to drink the actual tea leaves also for maximum benifits.


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 20, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> All you need to do is get it to dissolve then filter it. If its not water soluble then your going to need guaiacol and eo as you would high melting point aas and at 240c I'd say 50mg/ml will be tour max, you probably could hold 100mg/ml but with a stupid amount of guaiacol which you realy don't want to use.



Yes but we established that would be super painful at 11ccs a day. 11cc of oil and I will be synthol man with all that oil. I can do 100 mgml water based or even 200 mgml oil based. Anything above that seems overkill.

I see lcarnitine being sold at 200 MG/ml so ther must be something too it.


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 20, 2013)

Ironbuilt said:


> I just made green tea .lol  yes a gallon as its hot out and it tastes good..i use 1/4 cup loose tea till its baked dark greenbrown in the  sun..thus the word sun tea was invented...



Wow that's a lot of tea and caffeine. Even at his dose he is probably only getting 1 gram of egcg with the bioavailability only like 100 mg or less a day.

Still looking for some feedback from advanced homebrewers I am missing.

I am still thinking of transdermal route but would be so in accurate due do the high mw. Also I would probably be so greasy.


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## muscleboundfool (Aug 27, 2013)

I am pondering using phlogel instead of injectable. If I get teavigo which is 90% purity, I might be able to pull it off. Could I assume 40% bioavailability with a high mw weight such as egcg? Are there other criteria to determine  how well it passes through the skin? People are claiming 60% with aas powder.

I was reading the stickies with phlogel and it looked complicated. Could I simply  use a teaspoon of gel mix and apply to skin or does it need to sit a while to form?


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## muscleboundfool (Sep 1, 2013)

I was actually going to start Phlogel but I ran into a problem. Even the purest capsule providers under other ingredients either have Vegetable Magnesium Stearate, Silica, Rice Flour. This will definitely ruin the amounts needed for transdermal. I can't find any pure powder source for EGCG above 50%.


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## basskiller (Sep 1, 2013)

maybe think about recrystallizing it  and possibly removing the extra crap that is added to your 50% powder


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## muscleboundfool (Sep 4, 2013)

basskiller said:


> maybe think about recrystallizing it  and possibly removing the extra crap that is added to your 50% powder



That would be a task in itself. Keep in mind the 50% just says: polyphenols, catechins and caffeine. Too many possibilities. 

I found a couple of pills that are pure EGCG but too bad they add multiple fillers and won't sell me the raw powder. Extraction would be difficult for this too since EGCG is not soluble in pretty much anything. 

I was thinking of doing this sub-lingual. There is not much information on what makes a compound a good candidate. I could not find EGCG percentage. Would anyone else know the percentage?


For sublingual is there a method behind it? Do I need to suspend in  alcohol or is just putting the powder under the tongue then swishing to the gums enough.

The only problem with EGCG is liver issues so if I avoid first pass, too much of a dose should not be an issue. I just don't want to be getting 1%.


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