# Primobolan/Dbol stack for bulking



## Pump2356 (Jan 15, 2007)

Hey guys,

I'm about to start my first cycle ever and was going to run test at 500mg with a dbol kick start.However; I was curious to know if anybody has any experience running the classic primobolan/dbol stack that Arnold used and how would I go about using it . Is this a cycle one could gain 15 pounds and keep permanently after the cycle is complete ?

Would this cycle produce less side effects? 

How long and how much would the dianabol be used for and the primobolan?

pct needed? hcg needed?nolvadex or proviron needed throughout cycle?

The reason I am asking this is since my original plan was to run test enth/dbol, but I know a lot of the weight gain will be from water and when I come off I may only have about 10-15 pounds that will stick with me that may be muscle.  So I was thinking, would running dianabol/primobolon produce less weight gain throughout the cycle but give constant growing muscle mass with the same results in the end after pct but with less side effects such as acne, hair loss, sweeting, quicker recovery time, and more quality muscle?

If anybody can give me any input on this stack, it would be greatly appreciated!

Also, below is the original plan I was going with and background info on me:


Some background info on myself:
23 year old male. I have been lifting for 4 years (with the most time off would be a week a year) and train 3 times a week with a trainer. I started at a weight of about 105 and am at 161-165 at a height of 5'5. My body fat is about 16.5 though I haven't measured in a while. This will be my first cycle and am looking to put on about 20 pounds that I can keep after the cycle is over with if possible.  

The cycle:
weeks 1-4  25 mg of Dianabol everyday

weeks1-10  500 mg of test. Enanthate,   250mg shot on mon and another 250mg shot on thursday each week doing this (during the end of my 9th week I begin HCG everyother day after my last 250mg shot of test enth.on the 9th week for 500ius every other day and bump up nolvadex to 20 mg everyday and get rid of the proviron)

weeks11 HCG every other day at 500ius and nolvadex at 20mg everday
week 12   wait 3 days from my last HCG injection then begin PCT of nolvadex at 20mg every day 
week 13    20mg nolvadex everyday
week14     20mg of nolvadex everyday
week 15    20 mg of nolvadex everyday
week 16    10 mg of nolvadex everyday
week 17     5 mg of nolvadex everyday



Anti-Estrogens,HCG, and Post Cycle Therapy
Proviron 25 mg and Nolvadex at 10 mg throughout cycle but alternating each day between the two( example: tuesday proviron 25mg, wed nolvadex 10 mg, thursday proviron 25mg, etc.) I stop proviron on the begining of my 10th week and bump of the nolvadex for 20mg for weeks 11-15.For Pct I will be running nolvadex everyday for 6 weeks starting the 12th week.  HCG i begin right after my second shot of test enth. on the 9th week, I begin HCG at 500 ius every other day which will take me into weeks 10 and 11 still on HCG. then after my last dose of HCG i wait three days and then begin my 6 week nolvadex pct

Should side effects be under control with this cycle with the precautions I am making with the nolvadex and proviron? Also, are any supplements needed when using Dianabol for this dosage because of the toxicity?

I have a question about MPB...my dad is somewhat bald in the back on his head ,but on my mom's side, all the males except my uncle(i think caused hes stressed) died with a full head of hair in their 80's. So I'm not sure if I am going to go bald ,I think i've have some recession on the sides after looking at some pics when I was 18(I'm 23 now), so im not sure if im going to go bald or not. Is proscar something that really works well and if so how much should I take a day and for how long during my cycle?


Also, is it an obtainable goal for me to get over 200 pounds with three bulking cycles?


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## euro33 (Jan 16, 2007)

I am not a primo fan. Some info on it:
Primobolan-Methenolone

Primobolan

Chemical Name: Methenolone (Acetate and Enanthate)
Drug Class: Oral Anabolic Steroid 



Primobolan is an anabolic steroid which became very popular once it was claimed that it was one of Arnold’s favorites. I’m not really sure why this is, or how likely it is that Arnold went around telling everyone’s favorite steroid- but nonetheless, this rumor has persisted through the years. 

When we take a critical look at it, in terms of its anabolic and androgenic rating, it appears to be a pretty weak steroid but is rated as stronger than Masteron (Drostanolone)! I’ve used both steroids and can tell you that not too many people would claim that those ratings provide an accurate idea of those two steroids compare to each other. In truth, I used Primobolan at 400mgs/week and wasn’t very impressed with it, and honestly, for the money, that’s really disappointing, since Primobolan is not inexpensive. I also would speculate that the reason many (male) Primobolan users have been less than thrilled with results from it is that they failed to use high enough doses. If I were to use it again (which I won’t), I would probably use 100mgs/ED (Every Day). 

Interestingly, Primobolan has a relatively high affinity for binding to the Androgen Receptor, and surprisingly it actually binds with more affinity than testosterone (1). This ability to strongly bind to the AR may be why Primobolan is considered a good fat burner- although most Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) derivations are very potent fat burners (the notable exception being Anadrol). 

Primobolan has been used medically to reduce breast tumors, with a success rate of about a third (2), so we can safely assume that no Anti-Estrogen products would be necessary. The use of Finasteride, Dutesteride, or another anti-hair-loss product may be useful, however, as Primobolan has a bad reputation for causing Alopecia. 

Primobolan is very useful as both an anabolic as well as anti-catabolic agent, and the probable cause for this property is its ability to aid in nitrogen retention (3), which is a useful trait on both a bulking or cutting cycle…once again, I have to reiterate that the expense of this drug probably makes it a poor choice on a bulking cycle because of the reasonably high doses that it would require. 

One of the other very interesting facts about Primobolan is that it’s one of the very few compounds available as both an oral as well as an injectable. Unlike Winstrol and Dianabol (both alkylated and non-estrified steroids) however, which are also available in both forms, Primobolan is available with an Acetate ester for use as an oral, and with an Enanthate ester as an injectable. Unfortunately, in this case, making Primobolan a non-17-alpha-alkylated steroid greatly reduces its potency. However, it must be noted that this alkylation is what makes oral steroids survive their first pass through the liver; it also makes them hepatoxic (liver –toxic). Oral Primobolan doesn’t actually have this drawback, and thus it is very mild on liver function and doesn’t elevate liver enzymes too much. Instead of the more toxic 17a-alkylation, Primobolan (Oral) uses 17 beta estrification and 1 alkylation to make it orally available. For both men as well as women, daily dosing of the oral is necessary, although men would probably want to take 100mgs per day and women would need to take at least 10mgs every day.

Although it is typically considered to be a very mild drug when inhibition of the natural hormonal profile is considered, this isn’t totally true. Men were given a 30-45mg dose of the oral version of Primobolan, experienced between a 15% and 65% decrease in their Gonadatropin levels (4). Since we’re probably looking at double or triple that dose, for men to get any kind of results, it’s also probable that gonadal inhibition will also be increased.

My history with Primobolan Enanthate (the injectable version) has been less than impressive. I used it at 200mgs/week about a decade ago, and wasn’t impressed at all. A couple of years ago I went back to it and used 350mgs/week (100mgs/Every other Day), and got much better results, but still wasn’t overly impressed with it. Add to that the fact that it is an expensive chemical, and I really wasn’t impressed. 

. 
References:

1. Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to sex hormone-binding globulin.
Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.
2. Med Klin. 1981 Nov 20;76(24):689-91. [Anabolic therapy in metastatic breast cancer]
[Article in German]
Hartmann F, Pompecki R, Desaga U, Frahm H
3. Metabolic effects of anabolic steroids.
Wien Med Wochenschr. 1993;143(14-15):368-75
Anabolic steroids (metenolone) improve muscle performance and hemodynamic characteristics in cardiomyoplasty.
4. Comparative Studies about the influence of MetenoloneAcetate and Mesterolone on hypophysis and male gonads. Arzneimittelforshung. 1970 20(4) 545-7
Ann Thorac Surg. 1995 Apr;59(4):961-9; discussion 969-70.


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## rowingdude (Jan 16, 2007)

IF THIS IS YOUR VERY FIRST CYCLE USE *ONLY TESTERONE-E

Do not start out using steroids with this stack, if you fuck up, you're going to screw up more than your Johnson..

-rowing*


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## mike1991 (Jan 18, 2007)

I use Primobolan at 200mg per week and I really didn't notice anything. I think I will try it once more at 500mg a week and if it doesn't do much I'll never use it again. Why don't you use EQ instead?


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## Big Danny (Jan 20, 2007)

Yeah, on primo higher dosing are recommended for better results, but than the price will probably make eq a more resonable option.


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## mike1991 (Jan 20, 2007)

I agree, you can use both during cutting and unless you are wiling to spend an 200 hundred bucks a month just on primo. Go with the EQ. I just order 5 vials and I'll update with the 500mg per week result when Im done.


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## AlphaMale (Jan 20, 2007)

(Primo/D-Bol)*Is this a cycle one could gain 15 pounds and keep permanently after the cycle is complete?*

*Would this cycle produce less side effects?* 
Probably less water even though You would use Arimidex or another AI with your Test cycle.

*How long and how much would the dianabol be used for and the primobolan?*
Dianabol at 25mg per day for 40 days: 
06am = 10mg
10am = 5mg
02pm = 5mg
06pm = 5mg
?10pm = 5mg if it does not keep you up or having a late night.
week 01 = 150mg
week 02 = 175mg
week 03 = 175mg
week 04 = 175mg
week 05 = 175mg
week 06 = 150mg

Primobolan at 400+mg per week shot on mon and thu 
week 01 400mg
week 02 400mg
week 03 400mg
week 04 400mg
week 05 400mg
week 06 400mg
week 07 400mg
week 08 400mg
week 09 400mg
week 10 400mg

*pct needed? hcg needed?nolvadex or proviron needed throughout cycle?*
Add Proviron at end of Dianabol or run at 25mg until D-bol gone and then 50mg until done with Primo and then 25mg for two weeks
week 06 50mg on last day
week 07 50mg /day
week 08 50mg /day
week 09 50mg /day
week 10 50mg /day
week 11 25mg /day
week 12 25mg /day

Probably should run Nolvadex at the end of the cycle, with 20 tabs you'd look at:
week 11 20mg/day
week 12 20mg/day
week 13 20mg/for 4 days, 10mg/for 3 days
week 14 5mg/for 2days
Double it to 44 days and 40 tabs if you want


Regarding your other cycle:

*The cycle:
weeks 1-4  25 mg of Dianabol everyday*
Sounds solid, I like to think in Quantity rather than just a timeline; 25mg/day equally would be 20 or 40 days - I'd use Dianabol for the first 3 weeks (20days)

*weeks1-10  500 mg of test. Enanthate,   250mg shot on mon and another 250mg shot on thursday each week doing this (during the end of my 9th week I begin HCG everyother day after my last 250mg shot of test enth.on the 9th week for 500ius every other day and bump up nolvadex to 20 mg everyday and get rid of the proviron)*
I'd use Hcg during the entire cycle, or start at the 3rd week (but I like it during and not part of post)

I do not understand why you want to alternate the Nolvadex and the Proviron? You should just use Arimidex during your cycle at .25mg Everyday AND Proviron; or .5mg Arimidex Everyday, no Proviron. Run Like:

Week 01 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED
Week 02 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED
Week 03 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 04 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 05 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 06 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 07 50mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 08 50mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 09 50mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 10 50mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg x2
Week 11 50mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 500iu Hcg ED
Week 12 50mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim ED, 250iu Hcg 6 days
Week 13 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim E0D
Week 14 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim E2D
Week 15 25mg Prov ED, .25mg Arim E3D
Week 16 20mg Nolvadex ED
Week 17 20mg Nolvadex ED
Week 18 20mg Nolvadex 4 days, 10mg 3 days
Week 19 5mg Nolvadex 2 days

*Also, are any supplements needed when using Dianabol for this dosage because of the toxicity?*
Don't worry about it, just avoid anything that will cause more damage like alcohol and tynenol,etc.

*Is proscar something that really works well and if so how much should I take a day and for how long during my cycle?*
Don't know much about Proscar. I'm almost bald at 29 and everyone on my mother's side have full heads, so I would not put complete faith in that fact. I'd would use something like Finasteride, Nizoral or Proscar if I wasn't already almost bald.


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