# Fact vs myth - liver toxicity of injectable orals



## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

So after quite a bit of research, I've learned there is no way for an injected oral to be subject to first pass liver metabolization.

This is a simply matter of plumbing-

Once something is ingested... It's broken down in the stomach, then moves into the small intestine where it's absorbed into the blood stream and then is shuttled via hepatic portal vein into the liver for metabolization.

This is the only way something would be subject to first pass metabolization- if you administer a drug via intramuscular injection then it's absorbed directly and by passes the liver. 

So from a physiological point of view- no injectable orals are not as hepatoxic, but none the less they still impose a great deal of stress on the renal system.


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## chrisr116 (Aug 6, 2014)

Good post...
Tis better to shoot your winny than drink it....


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## naplestraining (Aug 6, 2014)

but doesn't anything smoked, drank or injected pass thru via the bloodstream?


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## BigBob (Aug 6, 2014)

Bro science tells me that when I take orals orally my stomach and digestion suffers. When I inject orals my stomach is fine. So no first pas thru the liver. Probably takes a lot of the strain off?


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## amateurmale (Aug 6, 2014)

With all the great gear out there how about just dont run any orals?


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

naplestraining said:


> but doesn't anything smoked, drank or injected pass thru via the bloodstream?




Yes, but only things that are taken orally are subject to first pass liver metabolism

Oral admin is as follows-

Mouth > stomach> small intestine> liver> heart> arteries> body-

Intramuscular admin
Muscle> blood vessels> heart> arteries> body


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> With all the great gear out there how about just dont run any orals?




I love orals- the hype about liver toxicity is over blown anyways.


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## amateurmale (Aug 6, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> I love orals- the hype about liver toxicity is over blown anyways.


It is?  So u have blood work to back that statement?


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> It is?  So u have blood work to back that statement?




What blood work have you ever seen to back that elevated liver values indicates a looming health disaster? I've listened to liver specialist tell me over and over again how they've almost never seen or heard of a patient with liver scerocois due to oral steroids- 

Elevated AST and LST is not a accurate hepatic health marker.


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## amateurmale (Aug 6, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> What blood work have you ever seen to back that elevated liver values indicates a looming health disaster? I've listen to liver specialist tell me over and over again how they've almost never seen or heard of a patient with liver scerocois due oral steroids-
> 
> Elevated AST and LST is not a accurate hepatic health marker.



What length of time are u talking about?


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> What length of time are u talking about?




We'll go to the extreme case here-

I've read quite a bit about the use of Anadrol in terms of treatment for severe anemia, hepatic function was a health marker monitored during treatment in the studies I've read-

In most cases no abnormal function was observed at a dose of 50-75mg of daily use until 3+ years of treatment. These studies were conducted in japan back in the 80's and 90's

This is daily use for 3 damn years... Again we are taking about function not enzyme levels... Enzyme levels subsequently are markers of function- not disease. They simply show that the liver is metabolizing something. It's a very backwards way of looking at liver health to be honest.

I've said quite a bit lately that renal health is by far the most problematic aspect of oral steroids. 

Again- you show me a person who has shown long term damage due to oral steroids. I've yet to find one who was a healthy individual without an existing drug or substance abuse issue.


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## amateurmale (Aug 6, 2014)

Guy at my gym stayed on orals for like a year and now he has cysts and tumors and it's due for surgery next week.  He's lost like 60 pound in a month.


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## GastrocGuy (Aug 6, 2014)

Everyone probably has different tolerances and predispositions. Best to be on the side of caution. I don't think the benefits outweigh the risks. My day job isn't living and dying as a bodybuilder, lol.


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## Derek7X (Aug 6, 2014)

IMO, Anadrol is the safest oral steroid, and can be taken for 6 weeks with pretty much zero risk. 

I think all these other oral drugs people say are mild like Anavar are much worse because they affect cholesterol/lipids way more. It's weird to me that everybody says Anadrol is the "most toxic" one. Anybody know why they say this?


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## amateurmale (Aug 6, 2014)

Derek7X said:


> IMO, Anadrol is the safest oral steroid, and can be taken for 6 weeks with pretty much zero risk.
> 
> I think all these other oral drugs people say are mild like Anavar are much worse because they affect cholesterol/lipids way more. It's weird to me that everybody says Anadrol is the "most toxic" one. Anybody know why they say this?


Probably because it has the worst sides maybe?


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## myosaurus (Aug 6, 2014)

Derek7X said:


> IMO, Anadrol is the safest oral steroid, and can be taken for 6 weeks with pretty much zero risk.
> 
> I think all these other oral drugs people say are mild like Anavar are much worse because they affect cholesterol/lipids way more. It's weird to me that everybody says Anadrol is the "most toxic" one. Anybody know why they say this?



because they come in 50mg/tab commercially, while var and winni come in 2-2.5mg/tab.


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## Derek7X (Aug 6, 2014)

@Myo - Little lost on what you're trying to say. Can you elaborate? I would think that people would process that as, "Wow, well the minimum dosage of Anadrol pills is 50mg....so 50mg of Anadrol must be a lot safer that other orals at 50mg"...assuming we used that mindset.


@Amateur

That's probably individual. Also once again, I think it's weird that I read on the internet throughout forums that Anadrol has the worst sides, because it's quite the opposite for everybody I know. I highly doubt everybody I know just happens to be part of some weird circle of individuals that differ from the rest of the population haha...

Idk anybody who has any Anadrol sides at all... I mean hair loss yeah, but nothing else. Even the blood pressure increase on 200mg+ a day of Anadrol is apparently similar to dbol at even 40mg(I'm talking real stuff here, not underdosed stuff people usually use). I feel like everybody must be getting fake anadrol or something ?!? Maybe it really does just affect a lot of people.......I just personally don't know anybody...that ever had problems with it.


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## The Grim Repper (Aug 6, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Probably because it has the worst sides maybe?



As mentioned, it's just so damned individual of a thing that those 'worst' sides don't affect everyone to the same degree if at all.  Personally, I get zero, zilch, nada sides many get from a bombs except for strength and size gains, I love anadrol and have used quite heavy doses at times.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Guy at my gym stayed on orals for like a year and now he has cysts and tumors and it's due for surgery next week.  He's lost like 60 pound in a month.




Cysts and tumors on his liver?

There are a few guys here who have claimed to been on orals for over 2 years without any long term negative health consequences- 

Again this has been my general experience with orals myself and this has also been what's reported to me anecdotally and from the medical standpoint as well-

I'm not saying that he doesn't have cysts and tumors, but again one has to look at it from all angles and realize that there may have been a pre existing condition.

From what I've read- liver functions would be significantly diminished long before anything like a cysts or a malignant growth would begin to be problematic


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## Derek7X (Aug 6, 2014)

The Grim Repper said:


> As mentioned, it's just so damned individual of a thing that those 'worst' sides don't affect everyone to the same degree if at all.  Personally, I get zero, zilch, nada sides many get from a bombs except for strength and size gains, I love anadrol and have used quite heavy doses at times.



This is exactly what I see in the real world! I don't know anybody with any sides from anadrol! Even blood pressure is 120-125,maybe 130 at 200/day! I'm talking dozens of people too!

I swear, the anadrol people are getting online must be something else -- there's just no way! Hah, I'm kidding, I know it's extremely individual...but man the number of stories I see online about anadrol apparently being terrible while dbol being incredible honestly makes me scratch my head.


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## amateurmale (Aug 6, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Cysts and tumors on his liver?


Yes


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## The Grim Repper (Aug 6, 2014)

Derek7X said:


> This is exactly what I see in the real world! I don't know anybody with any sides from anadrol! Even blood pressure is 120-125,maybe 130 at 200/day! I'm talking dozens of people too!
> 
> I swear, the anadrol people are getting online must be something else -- there's just no way! Hah, I'm kidding, I know it's extremely individual...but man the number of stories I see online about anadrol apparently being terrible while dbol being incredible honestly makes me scratch my head.



I find I'm the exact opposite with those two compounds, which is what you have found to be your experience.  Dbol has never been amazing for me - hell, good anavar gave me such quad pumps from extensions I couldn't COULD NOT squat down for 5 minutes.  Not dbol.  but Anadrol made me a tank in two days.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 6, 2014)

The Grim Repper said:


> I find I'm the exact opposite with those two compounds, which is what you have found to be your experience.  Dbol has never been amazing for me - hell, good anavar gave me such quad pumps from extensions I couldn't COULD NOT squat down for 5 minutes.  Not dbol.  but Anadrol made me a tank in two days.




I often hear of non responders to dbol- funny thing is I've taken good quality anavar a bunch and it's never done a damn thing to me. Dbol I fucking blow up on as well as drol


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## BigBob (Aug 6, 2014)

I think people use way too much dboll and anavar. I was on 75 mg tren Ace a day and 500 sust a week and 50mg of anavar ruined me. Dboll, I never have to go higher than 20mg. 4 Thai pinks and bam. I guess I'd your competing or in some comp than maybe. 
And I agree high liver values without any other symptoms are quite normal when on many meds and even after heavy workouts.


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## Derek7X (Aug 6, 2014)

BigBob said:


> I think people use way too much dboll and anavar. I was on 75 mg tren Ace a day and 500 sust a week and 50mg of anavar ruined me. Dboll, I never have to go higher than 20mg. 4 Thai pinks and bam. I guess I'd your competing or in some comp than maybe.
> And I agree high liver values without any other symptoms are quite normal when on many meds and even after heavy workouts.




Yeah agreed. When I see people at 200lbs saying they're on 100dbol/day, all I'm thinking to myself is you're really probably on 20mgs and have a terrible training/diet. 100dbol would have unbearable sides for most people, and would cause you to erupt in size unless you're a complete nonresponder. The sides would definetly be there though, if it was honestly proper dosed dbol. I think most UG sources , depending on who it is, really give you anywhere from 1/5th of 1/2 of the real dose LOL! =p


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## psych (Aug 6, 2014)

I have noticed that:
It's either dbol or adrol from people, one or the other.

I like both but sides from low dbol get me. 30mg max of dbol and i still get big and bloated. 100MG + of drol i'm good.

Friend of mine we have the same gear. He takes 100mg of dbol ED for a week, nothin. 50mgs of anadrol and he can't walk from the back pumps.


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## Derek7X (Aug 6, 2014)

lol hilarious , and yeah that seems to be very true. except for that one brilliantly smart guy on this forum that doesn't react to absolute anything. dbol and drol sucks for him, but winstrol is the king!

lol ^ ^


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## Phoe2006 (Aug 6, 2014)

Derek7X said:


> lol hilarious , and yeah that seems to be very true. except for that one brilliantly smart guy on this forum that doesn't react to absolute anything. dbol and drol sucks for him, but winstrol is the king!
> 
> lol ^ ^


Epistene


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## Sully (Aug 6, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Guy at my gym stayed on orals for like a year and now he has cysts and tumors and it's due for surgery next week.  He's lost like 60 pound in a month.



Not to discount ur story, but that could be due to any number of factors, really. Even most OTC pain meds if taken in large doses for an extended period of time can cause serious liver damage. People either forget or don't realize that acetaminophen is one of the most liver toxic drugs available on the market.   

If the guy at your gym had a habit of popping a few Tylenol or Advil a day to deal with the pain that heavy lifting normally causes, his liver problems could just as likely be caused by the OTC pain meds, especially if used for a prolonged period of time. The more likely scenario is that a combination of oral AAS, OTC NSAIDS, and possibly regular excessive alcohol consumption all worked together to contribute/cause his liver problems.


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## MightyJohn (Aug 7, 2014)

STUDY DONE:

The effects  on the body:

 Also referred to as 'A-bombs', it was first developed to aid those with anemia and other diseases/conditons where weight and muscle loss is prominent. This clearly shows just how effective it is at putting on muscle and weight, in addition to promoting strength gains, increasing red blood cell count and in some users an increase in appetite.  A 30 week study on patients with AIDS showed an average body mass increase of 8kg and although the weight increase plateaued at the 20 mark, this still shows how powerful it is. Users can expect dramatic weight gains within the first few weeks of use; it's not uncommon for a novice to put on 20lbs in as little as 3 weeks! Of course, this isn't all muscle as the mass gained will be very 'watery', but some muscle growth will be promoted so long as a structured hypertrophy based routine and high protein diet are adhered to. Strength will also increase rapdily - expect to add weight each gym session.


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## amateurmale (Aug 7, 2014)

Derek7X said:


> lol hilarious , and yeah that seems to be very true. except for that one brilliantly smart guy on this forum that doesn't react to absolute anything. dbol and drol sucks for him, but winstrol is the king!
> 
> lol ^ ^





Aww snap! - YouTube


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## Old Man River (Aug 7, 2014)

The Grim Repper said:


> As mentioned, it's just so damned individual of a thing that those 'worst' sides don't affect everyone to the same degree if at all.  Personally, I get zero, zilch, nada sides many get from a bombs except for strength and size gains, I love anadrol and have used quite heavy doses at times.



I am going to go back in my time machine" The 80's" and say I started on Dianabol- 5mgs 3 X a day, went to Anadrol-50, scored tab 2 X a day of 25mgs, yes this was a pussy dose but did very well! Then graduated with Liquid Dianabol -25mgs eod.Liquid D-bol with Test -C is excellent.I'm still going strong. I got my Liver and kidneys working fine!


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## The Grim Repper (Aug 7, 2014)

Old Man River said:


> I am going to go back in my time machine" The 80's" and say I started on Dianabol- 5mgs 3 X a day, went to Anadrol-50, scored tab 2 X a day of 25mgs, yes this was a pussy dose but did very well! Then graduated with Liquid Dianabol -25mgs eod.Liquid D-bol with Test -C is excellent.I'm still going strong. I got my Liver and kidneys working fine!



That machine a two seater!?  Count me in Doc!


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## dorian777 (Aug 7, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> With all the great gear out there how about just dont run any orals?



Because there are d-bol, abombs, halo, and m1t in the world.


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2014)

The renal stress caused by AAS seems to be directly related to AAS induced hypertension. I don't know of a direct link between AAS use and renal stress.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 7, 2014)

Gizmo said:


> The renal stress caused by AAS seems to be directly related to AAS induced hypertension. I don't know of a direct link between AAS use and renal stress.




Where do you think all the metabolizes are processed? And yes the high blood pressure is also a major factor. The sheer metabolic waste produced by tren is quite amazing... 

I know I've had "tren piss" quite a few times


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## rangerjockey (Aug 7, 2014)

This topic is ripe for someone who wants to do some serious research.  I think Duchaine might have done some research on this topic.  Look into his old "Cliff Notes".


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Where do you think all the metabolizes are processed? And yes the high blood pressure is also a major factor. The sheer metabolic waste produced by tren is quite amazing...
> 
> I know I've had "tren piss" quite a few times



I've actually never had tren piss, although I haven't done monster doses (150mg EOD at the highest). My kidney numbers always came back mid cycle just as good as when I'm off. I do always keep my BP in check though.


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## Sully (Aug 7, 2014)

Gizmo said:


> I've actually never had tren piss, although I haven't done monster doses (150mg EOD at the highest). My kidney numbers always came back mid cycle just as good as when I'm off. I do always keep my BP in check though.



Even on a low dose of Tren, 50mg/day, I still get super dark urine. The color of the Tren doesn't seem to matter, either.


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2014)

Lil' Sully said:


> Even on a low dose of Tren, 50mg/day, I still get super dark urine. The color of the Tren doesn't seem to matter, either.



I guess we are all different, I'm curious what that difference is though.


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## BigBob (Aug 7, 2014)

Gizmo said:


> I guess we are all different, I'm curious what that difference is though.


Me too. Sometimes its dark but not always. And I have never had tren cough.....


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## Sully (Aug 7, 2014)

Wish I knew. Kidney efficiency, age, blood pressure maybe. Maybe the purity of the Tren raws matter. I'm just brain storming, though. Weird thing for me is, it didn't matter how much water I drank. Even at a gallon and a half a day it would still be a dark rust color, sometimes even approaching brown.


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## BIG D (Aug 8, 2014)

id be more concerned with effects on lipids. from my exp, orals... specifically superdrol, MESSED my lipids up bad


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## Ironbuilt (Aug 8, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> With all the great gear out there how about just dont run any orals?



Shut up mr negative. .lol. E this is a  bad thread. Lol. :delete:


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## amateurmale (Aug 8, 2014)

Ironbuilt said:


> Shut up mr negative. .lol. E this is a  bad thread. Lol. :delete:


Whatever you're just mad because I wouldn't let u come live with me.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 8, 2014)

Ironbuilt said:


> Shut up mr negative. .lol. E this is a  bad thread. Lol. :delete:




Ummm you're on my coast now- watch yourself I may just come down there and go hunting for swamp ape... You're Yetti no more- you're " Swamp Ape"


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## chrisr116 (Aug 8, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Ummm you're on my coast now- watch yourself I may just come down there and go hunting for swamp ape... You're Yetti no more- you're " Swamp Ape"



Or a Lizard Man


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 8, 2014)

I think he's wearing lil tight shorts on the shores of south beach- working on his Cuban accent trying to get picked up by an even older gay man-


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## butthole69 (Aug 15, 2014)

Enigmatic707 said:


> So after quite a bit of research, I've learned there is no way for an injected oral to be subject to first pass liver metabolization.
> 
> This is a simply matter of plumbing-
> 
> ...







chrisr116 said:


> Good post...
> Tis better to shoot your winny than drink it....



No thats not how it works at all. This is totally backwards rofl

:sFun_TVtrouble::sAng_badmood::sSig_Kewlpics:

Trenbolone, masteron, and other AAS could hard on the renal system. Theyre not good for your liver. Usually the more resistant a drug is to metabolism the more 'toxic' it is. There could also be liver damage caused by direct agonism at steroid receptor sites in the liver Liver Injury Induced by High-Dose Methylprednisolone Therapy: A Case Report and Brief Review of the Literature


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## butthole69 (Aug 15, 2014)

naplestraining said:


> but doesn't anything smoked, drank or injected pass thru via the bloodstream?



Yes this is correct. Even the natural testosterone and estrogen produced by the human body gets eaten up by the liver.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 15, 2014)

butthole69 said:


> No thats not how it works at all. This is totally backwards rofl
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You do understand that I am talking about when "inject" an oral as solution intramuscularly- how does first pass metabolism happen this way?


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## butthole69 (Aug 15, 2014)

First pass is only relevant for drugs that are completely broken down by the liver, like testosterone. If you take an anadrol it is still going to pass through your liver thousands of times whether it is injected or taken orally.  Your blood is constantly passing through your liver.

So I guess you're right if you inject anadrol you could technically say it avoids first pass metabolism. But it is not important because even anadrol Inj. will pass through your liver thousands of times before being excreted. 

Injecting anadrol and eating it is the same thing. The difference is anadrol Inj. gets released from the depot slowly. It could also be easier on your stomach. Some people get stomach aches from high dose orals.

Also, non 17methylated steroids could be damaging to liver. The 17methyl modification is not the only thing that causes liver toxicity. Liver toxicity is complicated and not well understood.


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## butthole69 (Aug 15, 2014)

Sorry if that sounds rude but please dont think that because youre using winstrol depot its not liver toxic.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 16, 2014)

butthole69 said:


> First pass is only relevant for drugs that are completely broken down by the liver, like testosterone. If you take an anadrol it is still going to pass through your liver thousands of times whether it is injected or taken orally.  Your blood is constantly passing through your liver.
> 
> So I guess you're right if you inject anadrol you could technically say it avoids first pass metabolism. But it is not important because even anadrol Inj. will pass through your liver thousands of times before being excreted.
> 
> ...




There is a huge huge disparity between things that are passing  via oral ingestion versus systemic blood flow- 

Let's just look at the pharmacokinetics of oral admin of 100mg of Drol-

You take 100mg of Drol orally, it gets broken down in your stomach slightly, passes onto the intestines where it's then absorbed and DIRECTLY plumbed to the liver for first pass metabolization... All 100mg has to pass through the liver and it's subject to enzymatic breakdown.

Okay now- you inject 100mg of Drol... It sits in a depot in the muscle and get released into the blood stream where it gets circulated by the heart into the arteries to ALL the tissues of the body, it does not go from the heart straight to the liver for break down, some does, but the vast majority is flowing into the organs and tissues of the body where it's either exerting and effect at receptor sites or then passing through the kidneys and various other tissues where metabolization can take place. Not all 100mg is going to be subjected to hepatic breakdown as where taking and oral dose would, and again the disparity is quite significant.

This is the same reason why you take nitro glycerine sublingual so that it's not subject to hepatic break down which would then render the drug useless... Yes some does enter the liver where it's subject to hepatic function but their percentage is vastly different.


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## butthole69 (Aug 16, 2014)

As I said earlier this is only relevant to drugs which must be administered IM or subQ like testosterone. You are incorrect. Do more research about the renal and circulatory systems in general.


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## tripletotal (Aug 16, 2014)

It is my understanding that butthole69 is correct. If a compound, whether AAS, alcohol, acetaminophen, or whatever, is a type that is broken down by the liver, then it is going to be broken down by your liver.

Whether you inject it, snort it, drink it, or shove it up your ass, your liver still has to deal with 100% of it. There's no way around that.

If it's in your blood, it's going to go through your liver.

Where do half lives comes from? From how quickly compounds are metabolized or "broken down" by the liver. Injectable versions of orals have the same half lives as the oral version because.....


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## theprince (Aug 16, 2014)

BigBob said:


> I think people use way too much dboll and anavar. I was on 75 mg tren Ace a day and 500 sust a week and 50mg of anavar ruined me. Dboll, I never have to go higher than 20mg. 4 Thai pinks and bam. I guess I'd your competing or in some comp than maybe.
> And I agree high liver values without any other symptoms are quite normal when on many meds and even after heavy workouts.



Slow down podna...you know you blasted higher doses than that small time up there


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## theprince (Aug 16, 2014)

butthole69 said:


> First pass is only relevant for drugs that are completely broken down by the liver, like testosterone. If you take an anadrol it is still going to pass through your liver thousands of times whether it is injected or taken orally.  Your blood is constantly passing through your liver.
> 
> So I guess you're right if you inject anadrol you could technically say it avoids first pass metabolism. But it is not important because even anadrol Inj. will pass through your liver thousands of times before being excreted.
> 
> ...



Great posts man. Thanks.


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 16, 2014)

butthole69 said:


> As I said earlier this is only relevant to drugs which must be administered IM or subQ like testosterone. You are incorrect. Do more research about the renal and circulatory systems in general.




Look at the title of my post- that's all I was talking about is oral steroids that are administered IM-

I'm not talking about oral steroids taking orally-


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## Enigmatic707 (Aug 16, 2014)

tripletotal said:


> It is my understanding that butthole69 is correct. If a compound, whether AAS, alcohol, acetaminophen, or whatever, is a type that is broken down by the liver, then it is going to be broken down by your liver.
> 
> Whether you inject it, snort it, drink it, or shove it up your ass, your liver still has to deal with 100% of it. There's no way around that.
> 
> ...




No- not correct... 

Again look at nitroglycerine as a prime example.. Once it hits the liver from ingestion, then it's rendered completely inert- this is why it's taken sublingually. Things that are taken  via Intramuscular, intravenous, sublingual, nasal, subcutaneous all forego "first pass" metabolism which is where the greatest degree of liver metabolization takes place.

Your blood volume does not pass through your liver the way it does through your kidneys, this is simply not the case. 75% of all blood flow comes from the Portal Vein stemming from the GI tract. The main "detoxification" function that the liver is designed to perform is to detoxify things which have been ingested and absorbed into your GI, it's not the sole detoxifier for the body, it's function is not the same of the kidneys. While it does metabolize a myriad of hormones and carbs and many many other things within the arterial blood supply, it's main detox function is that of the blood flow from the portal vein.

While blood does pass through the liver if you look at the structure or each of the liver lobules and the way blood flows from with each lobule from the portal triad. Especially when you look at the liver acinus and over all veinus and arterial blood flow within the liver acinus. You'll see the primary mode of blood detoxification is done when things are ingested and then directed to the liver from the portal vein. 

I don't have the study to show, but this is also supported by a study which showed the pharmacological and pharmacokinetic differences between oral and intravenous administration of certain pain killers. The ALT liver enzyme levels where not even in the same ball park in terms of damage yielded between oral and IV administration of the same drugs.

Again my over all agenda with this topic was to illustrate that IM was safer and showed a lower level of liver toxicity due to the forgoing of "first pass" liver metabolization.


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## BigBob (Aug 16, 2014)

theprince said:


> Slow down podna...you know you blasted higher doses than that small time up there


Well maybe a few times  however I guess I've figured out the risk to benefit ratio for myself.


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## Xxplosive (Oct 28, 2019)

Derek7X said:


> This is exactly what I see in the real world! I don't know anybody with any sides from anadrol! Even blood pressure is 120-125,maybe 130 at 200/day! I'm talking dozens of people too!
> 
> I swear, the anadrol people are getting online must be something else -- there's just no way! Hah, I'm kidding, I know it's extremely individual...but man the number of stories I see online about anadrol apparently being terrible while dbol being incredible honestly makes me scratch my head.



Anadrol makes me lethargic as fuck to the point it hinders workouts. Lethargy ia often a sign of the liver being stressed.

I love anadrol outside of this, if there is a diff reason why it makes you lethargic and I'm wrong, please let me know. Would love to be able to run it.

Taking your own individual reaction to a drug and thinking everyone else who reacts differently to it are lying is ridiculous.

There are some people who fesl great on tren- does that make it a safe, side effect free compound?


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## BrooklynBorn (Oct 29, 2019)

MightyJohn said:


> STUDY DONE:
> 
> The effects  on the body:
> 
> Also referred to as 'A-bombs', it was first developed to aid those with anemia and other diseases/conditons where weight and muscle loss is prominent. This clearly shows just how effective it is at putting on muscle and weight, in addition to promoting strength gains, increasing red blood cell count and in some users an increase in appetite.  A 30 week study on patients with AIDS showed an average body mass increase of 8kg and although the weight increase plateaued at the 20 mark, this still shows how powerful it is. Users can expect dramatic weight gains within the first few weeks of use; it's not uncommon for a novice to put on 20lbs in as little as 3 weeks! Of course, this isn't all muscle as the mass gained will be very 'watery', but some muscle growth will be promoted so long as a structured hypertrophy based routine and high protein diet are adhered to. Strength will also increase rapdily - expect to add weight each gym session.



does it help in any other way for aids patients? does it raise their T cells at all?


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