# Beginners question on pros and con's of coming off steroids after almost three years?



## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

So I started out on the 400 milligrams of testosterone cypionate per week about two and a half years ago approaching 3 years now, I used to fiddle between two and four hundred milligrams a week for my first year. I would always go to the gym at least 5 days a week and my workouts were spot on! I continued my excellent work ethic during the second year and up the dose to about 600 milligrams a week and also started using three to four hundred milligrams a week of deca. Again my workouts were spot on my protein intake was spot on in my nutrition was okay but not great. Now I'm back to running 400 milligrams a week and working out like a champ. I started off as a sloppy 260 pound man and now I am a beast of a powerlifting giant three hundred and forty pound man. I am thinking about going off steroids for a few months to try and balance my hormones but I will add that all of my blood work has come back good throughout these years. I have tested my blood levels every 3 months and my test levels were sitting right about 650 to 1300 depending on when my last shot was, but I'm guessing even with the steroid injections I'm sitting around 600- 800 on my total testosterone count... I'm wondering if it would be a great benefit to taking a break after all this time or just cruising on like a hundred milligrams a week for 3 or 4 months. I do not compete and I already have two children so I'm not too worried about the infertility thing but I'm thinking if I ever want to cut back down to a solid 260 I may have to come off the juice for a bit. I am just curious about the pros and cons of coming off steroids after this long of time. Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

xchewbaccax777 said:


> So I started out on the 400 milligrams of testosterone cypionate per week about two and a half years ago approaching 3 years now, I used to fiddle between two and four hundred milligrams a week for my first year. I would always go to the gym at least 5 days a week and my workouts were spot on! I continued my excellent work ethic during the second year and up the dose to about 600 milligrams a week and also started using three to four hundred milligrams a week of deca. Again my workouts were spot on my protein intake was spot on in my nutrition was okay but not great. Now I'm back to running 400 milligrams a week and working out like a champ. I started off as a sloppy 260 pound man and now I am a beast of a powerlifting giant three hundred and forty pound man. I am thinking about going off steroids for a few months to try and balance my hormones but I will add that all of my blood work has come back good throughout these years. I have tes ted my blood levels every 3 months and my test levels were sitting right about 650 to 1300 depending on when my last shot was, but I'm guessing even with the steroid injections I'm sitting around 600- 800 on my total testosterone count... I'm wondering if it would be a great benefit to taking a break after all this time or just cruising on like a hundred milligrams a week for 3 or 4 months. I do not compete and I already have two children so I'm not too worried about the infertility thing but I'm thinking if I ever want to cut back down to a solid 260 I may have to come off the juice for a bit. I am just curious about the pros and cons of coming off steroids after this long of time. Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.




Your blood work was great ?  What was your E2 at with no blockers ?  What was your cholesterol like ?  No way your rbc and hematocrit was ok after running deca. Post some numbers.


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## rangerjockey (Mar 17, 2014)

Everything I have read/learned is to come off for at least 30 days with proper PCT protocls with you, you might have to run PCT for a longer period of time.  IF it was me, I would come off for 4-6 months and really give your body and receptors a good rest. Maintain a clean diet to stay lean.  Then hit it for no more than 16 weeks, come off, PCT.  Thats what I would do....


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## Daniel11 (Mar 17, 2014)

The pros are you give your body a chance to find homeostasis and for your natural hormone balance to return.   This may take some time.   PCT will help of course.  Also consider HCG (kind of a given)

The cons are the roller coaster ride of hormones you will go through.  Not easy.


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## Ironbuilt (Mar 17, 2014)

Come off 2-3 months you will be glad you did.  Stock up on hcg, clomid, OTC supplements and when you do come off dont sit like a lazy ass keep up the gym but poundages will lower . Your organs will appreciate that and I bet u will feel great..  just in time for summer reboot.


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Funny you say that because I've been off for 3 months and I have no drive in the gym


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## Magnus82 (Mar 17, 2014)

How old are you?  Your natty levels now are no where near 600-800 while on.   I would be surprised, depending on your age,  if you could ever get them there naturally again. Congrats on getting getting bloods,  but they cannot show all the damage you are doing internally.   Also,  unless you are 8', you are clinically obese.   We all want to be big,  but damn son,  340.  Why are you this size?   Do you compete in powerlifting? Even so,  loosing some weight by coming off would help your health tremendously.  Diet down to even 260 and if you are the beast you say you are,  you will look incredible and probably even bigger.   Do your research on proper pct and consider hcg, serms, and triptorelin.  Here is a good read on triptorelin.   There is also other great studies on the above compounds on the site as well.   I noticed you posted this on another forum.   Be careful as you will always get a mixture of answers and will then use the one you want to hear.   The great thing about Anasci,  you get the cumulative advice of several seasoned vets,  which I would take any day. 
Single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Ditto Magnus, I'm betting cholesterol is real bad at that weight.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Your blood work was great ?  What was your E2 at with no blockers ?  What was your cholesterol like ?  No way your rbc and hematocrit was ok after running deca. Post some numbers.



I will get some numbers ran the next week... I usually just do total testosterone with cholestral and red blood cell count and estro. Is there a specific type of lab work I should request


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> How old are you?  Your natty levels now are no where near 600-800 while on.   I would be surprised, depending on your age,  if you could ever get them there naturally again. Congrats on getting getting bloods,  but they cannot show all the damage you are doing internally.   Also,  unless you are 8', you are clinically obese.   We all want to be big,  but damn son,  340.  Why are you this size?   Do you compete in powerlifting? Even so,  loosing some weight by coming off would help your health tremendously.  Diet down to even 260 and if you are the beast you say you are,  you will look incredible and probably even bigger.   Do your research on proper pct and consider hcg, serms, and triptorelin.  Here is a good read on triptorelin.   There is also other great studies on the above compounds on the site as well.   I noticed you posted this on another forum.   Be careful as you will always get a mixture of answers and will then use the one you want to hear.   The great thing about Anasci,  you get the cumulative advice of several seasoned vets,  which I would take any day.
> Single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again



Cholesterol is in normal ranges! Lol







amateurmale said:


> Ditto Magnus, I'm betting cholesterol is real bad at that weight.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> How old are you?  Your natty levels now are no where near 600-800 while on.   I would be surprised, depending on your age,  if you could ever get them there naturally again. Congrats on getting getting bloods,  but they cannot show all the damage you are doing internally.   Also,  unless you are 8', you are clinically obese.   We all want to be big,  but damn son,  340.  Why are you this size?   Do you compete in powerlifting? Even so,  loosing some weight by coming off would help your health tremendously.  Diet down to even 260 and if you are the beast you say you are,  you will look incredible and probably even bigger.   Do your research on proper pct and consider hcg, serms, and triptorelin.  Here is a good read on triptorelin.   There is also other great studies on the above compounds on the site as well.   I noticed you posted this on another forum.   Be careful as you will always get a mixture of answers and will then use the one you want to hear.   The great thing about Anasci,  you get the cumulative advice of several seasoned vets,  which I would take any day.
> Single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again



That's a pic of me recently at 340. Lol


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

That's the frustrating part is it all my blood work is awesome that makes me want to stay on forever but I know I could benefit from a six month break probably for at least a three month break I'm just worried about getting limp dick and going through an emotional rollercoaster because I'm starting a new job soon and I need to be very focused unstable so maybe I should wait another 6 months before I try to come off???


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Your total cholesterol may be okay but I want to see HDL and LDL numbers


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Your total cholesterol may be okay but I want to see HDL and LDL numbers



I will get these numbers done and then I will respond to you or message you I appreciate your help and advice


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Great! I'm always interested in other people's lipids since mine suck so bad.


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

And don't forget triglycerides too


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

magnus82 said:


> how old are you?  Your natty levels now are no where near 600-800 while on.   I would be surprised, depending on your age,  if you could ever get them there naturally again. Congrats on getting getting bloods,  but they cannot show all the damage you are doing internally.   Also,  unless you are 8', you are clinically obese.   We all want to be big,  but damn son,  340.  Why are you this size?   Do you compete in powerlifting? Even so,  loosing some weight by coming off would help your health tremendously.  Diet down to even 260 and if you are the beast you say you are,  you will look incredible and probably even bigger.   Do your research on proper pct and consider hcg, serms, and triptorelin.  Here is a good read on triptorelin.   There is also other great studies on the above compounds on the site as well.   I noticed you posted this on another forum.   Be careful as you will always get a mixture of answers and will then use the one you want to hear.   The great thing about anasci,  you get the cumulative advice of several seasoned vets,  which i would take any day.
> single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again



34


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Great! I'm always interested in other people's lipids since mine suck so bad.



Is there a specific set of tests I should request


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## robertinho2012 (Mar 17, 2014)

yes


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Yes go to www.directlabs.com and order the top 10 most important for a male.


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Full lipid panel, test, e2, full cbc count, liver,kidneys,etc. I'm sure your liver and kidneys are fine since you didn't run any orals.


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

All those are the top 10most important


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## amateurmale (Mar 17, 2014)

Shit mistyped.  All those are in top 10.


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## Magnus82 (Mar 17, 2014)

Xchew,  I believe the female comprehensive panel is what you want.  Male would work but doesn't have estro.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks bros


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 17, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Xchew,  I believe the female comprehensive panel is what you want.  Male would work but doesn't have estro.



Any specific PCT suggestions


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## Magnus82 (Mar 17, 2014)

This is the PCT that I always used.  A bit different than what you typically see,  but highly effective.  I have a very good writeup on it explaining why each compound and it's doses are used.   It's a good read and I can get it to you if your interested.   Also,  this is PCT only.  You may also want to add hcg the last few weeks of your cycle.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

20 mgs daily for six weeks? Damn I have tamoxifen and Arimidex and I should get lots of HCG...500 iu daily of hcg? That's at the 50 mark on insulin sryinge right? I know I'm a novice.lol


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> This is the PCT that I always used.  A bit different than what you typically see,  but highly effective.  I have a very good writeup on it explaining why each compound and it's doses are used.   It's a good read and I can get it to you if your interested.   Also,  this is PCT only.  You may also want to add hcg the last few weeks of your cycle.
> 
> View attachment 13429



Thank you bro


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> This is the PCT that I always used.  A bit different than what you typically see,  but highly effective.  I have a very good writeup on it explaining why each compound and it's doses are used.   It's a good read and I can get it to you if your interested.   Also,  this is PCT only.  You may also want to add hcg the last few weeks of your cycle.
> 
> View attachment 13429



Yes I'm interested in the right up please get it to me and I very much appreciate your help sir


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

Going to try to get my diet clean before I get back on program


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## Magnus82 (Mar 18, 2014)

Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)

After a cycle, we have one goal: to hold onto the gains we made during the cycle. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the levels of various hormones and other substances that were circulating around your body during the cycle (huge amounts of testosterone, insulin-like growth factor, growth hormone, and lower amounts of muscle-wasting glucocorticoids) are now changing. Sadly, they are making way for lower amounts of the hormones we want for building muscle, and higher amounts of the catabolic ones. What needs to be done, as quickly as possible, is to get your body to begin production of your own natural anabolic hormones, and produce less of the catabolic ones. Unfortunately, your body has other plans.
But then, so do I…
…and I’m very confident that this protocol will allow you to recover your own natural hormonal levels quickly and lose far less of the gains you worked so hard for on the cycle. This protocol, which is typically implemented after a cycle is called “Post Cycle Therapy” or “PCT” for short.

First, I’m going to tell you what anabolic hormones are typically low when a cycle ends, and which catabolic ones are high, then I’ll tell you what drugs can change that condition as fast as possible. Is all of this necessary? No, not at all. You can skip to the end of the article and look for a little chart I made - the extent of my computer skill - which has all of the dosage recommendations and compounds involved to properly recover from your cycle. I think, however, that you’ll see some very odd recommendations if you simply skip to the end, and will find yourself reading through the whole article to find out where they came from - or maybe you’ll just try to find out what’s gotten into me?

I’m not re-inventing the wheel here, and you may have seen a piece of this information elsewhere (possibly in something I’ve written, possibly somewhere else on the internet or in a magazine), but I’m sure of two things:
You’ve never seen this PCT protocol anywhere
This is the most effective PCT you’ll ever see
First, I’ll give you a brief explanation on the body and how it works, and why there’s a lag-time after the cessation of Anabolic Steroids before the body returns to normal. Remember, during this lag-time you lose gains, so we really need to make it as short as possible. First, we need to understand a bit of what is going on in your body, what causes it to happen naturally, and what hormones are performing what function. Don’t worry, I’ll try to make it painless.

At the age of puberty, Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) is increasingly released from the Hypothalamus, in turn causing the secretion of Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luetenizing Hormone (LH) from the pituitary, and finally the male gonads (testes) are then stimulated by those pituitary hormones (LH and FSH). (1). FSH, although generally thought to only have a role in production of sperm, actually aids the in regulation of Leydig Cell function (2), while LH directly causes the Leydig Cells in the testes to secrete androgenic hormones such as testosterone (which is causes a surge in other anabolic hormones: Insulin Like Growth Factor, Growth Hormone, etc…). Androgens do this by then targeting other tissues inside the body, either by attaching to the Androgen Receptors (AR), which are found primarily in the cytoplasm of specific cells, or by what’s known as non-receptor mediated effects. When an androgen (your own natural testosterone or an anabolic steroid you’ve injected or ingested) binds to a receptor inside the cell, it activates the transcription of specific genes. What does this mean? Don’t worry, it just means that the steroid molecule gives the cell a message to do something. In the case of testosterone, for example, one of the messages it sends to the cell is to increase nitrogen retention in your body, thus allowing you to use more of the protein you take in, and build more muscle. In the case of testosterone (or anabolic steroids in general), this transcription causes a lot of different anabolic effects to take place: an increase in IGF, a decrease in cortisol, an increase in Red Blood Cell count, and the increased protein synthesis I already told you about. This is not to say that AR binding is the only thing that causes anabolic or androgenic effects, however. Oxymetholone and Methandrostenolone (Anadrol and Dianabol) both bind very weakly to the AR yet are both highly anabolic and androgenic. The diagram below is an example of an androgen’s entry into a target cell, where it (in this case) stimulates protein synthesis, which is a major anabolic effect:



Under the control of this heightened state of androgens, you also go through androgenic development as well as anabolic development. This can be seen in puberty when males grow body hair experience voice changes, as experience genital development and growth.

Another characteristic of androgens in the body is that they are subject to what’s known as a “negative feedback loop”. Lets review one of the first things I mentioned, ok? Your Hypothalamus secretes GnRH, thus making the pituitary secrete LH & FSH, finally in turn causing the testes to stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone (by conversion of cholesterol), remember? Ok, now, once testosterone is created however, it has the ability to in turn to undergo various metabolic processes that will inhibit GnRH, which in turn inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH, and that brings a halt to natural testosterone production. Once testosterone has stopped being produced, it no longer sends this negative signal, and GnRH eventually begins to do its job again. In this way, your body prevents excess hormones from being secreted and thus maintaining homeostasis (the status quo… in this case a state where you are neither gaining nor losing muscle) (1). This negative feedback loop is partially why we use anabolic steroids…we want more testosterone for anabolic purposes (or more Anavar or whatever) than our body will let us produce (not that our bodies produce Anavar, but you get the idea). When we use that injectable testosterone, it sends the message to our body to begin the negative feedback loop and discontinue producing/secreting the hormones that cause our natural testosterone production. The chart below clearly shows this process, displaying both the negative and positive feedback system(s):


So what I’m saying is that anabolic steroids increase androgen levels in the blood, bringing a halt to GnRH, making the pituitary gland (eventually) responds by reducing the release of LH; this loss of LH has the effect of shutting down testosterone, of course, which you know is produced by the Leydig cells in the testes after they are stimulated by LH. Am I being repetitive? Yes. Do you need to understand all of this in order to understand the PCT protocol I’m about to outline? Yes. Remember, the negative feedback loop is, of course, no problem while we are on a cycle. Want more testosterone (or androgens) in your body? Fill up a few more syringes!

But all good things come to an end, and most of us choose to end our cycles at some point. At this point, while there is still some androgens floating around in us, our natural production won’t begin, and even once they are out, there may be some lag time before your body figures out that it needs to start producing its own androgens again. As I said before, this lag time is severely catabolic and it’s where you lose a lot of your gains. SO what we need to do is coax the body into quickly producing its own androgens.

One of the first drugs we’ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That’s the “selective” part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it’s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).
Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex.

Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid…and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no “synergy” that I’ve ever seen in any relevant study.

SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I’ve done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.

So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We can’t use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor –which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it’s absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. I’d steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations…

All of this tells me that you can’t simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergy…hopefully decreasing our recovery time.

We’ll need something to go with Nolvadex, which acts in a different manner, and Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) is the clear choice here. Here’s where things get a bit controversial (no, really…I know you , because I’m pretty much the only person around (currently) who recommends HCG for Post-Cycle Therapy. Although I’m seen as Old School in this respect, really, this is a totally new paradigm for HCG use, made possible only by the inclusion of the other compounds I am introducing to you for PCT. HCG is the natural choice, as it has been used successfully to cure AAS induced (11), and this alone warrants its inclusion to our cycle.

HCG is a peptide hormone manufactured by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the placenta to help control a pregnant woman’s hormones (can anything really be said to control a pregnant woman’s hormones except ice-cream and chocolate?). Obviously, as you can guess from the name, it is a substance that stimulates the gonads (hence: gonadotropin). It does this by initiating gene transcription that is identical to that of Luetenizing Hormone, thereby causing the Leydig Cells to produce testosterone. Sounds great right? We can stimulate LH and FSH production with our Nolvadex, and then directly stimulate the Leydig Cells as well, to produce tons of testosterone by different routes! Well...it’s not all that simple.

Unfortunately, while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases estrogen as well(12). As you probably know, estrogen acts directly on the Leydig cells to effect changes in the activities of enzymes important for testosterone synthesis (13) and may actually be considered an important part of that negative feedback loop I mentioned earlier. In addition, an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies (14), as well as in human studies (15); since HCG mimics LH, you can expect it to do the same. This LH downregulation can cause an increase in steroidogenic cholesterol (the cholesterol earmarked by your body for conversion into testosterone). (16). Thus, after the initial HCG induced surge in testosterone is over, if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available. This is telling me that less is being converted to testosterone. In fact, rodent models suggest that if you take a dose large enough to cause a sharp increase of plasma testosterone, you will actually desensitize your Leydig cells to your next shot, and will possibly not experience any rise in testosterone from the second dose at all, or may only experience a very slight one at best (17.). Since this is due to LH-Receptor downregulation, and that occurs in human models too, it is pretty fair to assume that if your first dose of HCG is too large, your second won’t be very effective. Unfortunately, this lack of an increase in testosterone doesn’t necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone. Low LH post-cycle is not the primary cause of slow recovery, because LH generally rises to levels above baseline after a cycle much sooner than testosterone production does. This is probably because the pituitary is working very hard to get your atrophied Leydig cells to start producing testosterone again. HCG should also bring back testicular volume; I feel the need to mention this because it’s important to me and I suspect most men as well. It would also appear that HCG works very well when it’s used on men who have low levels of LH to begin with (as you would be after a cycle), as many studies on pre-pubertal boys and Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadal men would suggest (19)

This suggests that a pre-exposure to normal LH levels or gonadatropins in general is necessary for HCG-induced Leydig Cell desensitization. This, of course is not a problem for us, as we’ll be using it when LH/Gonadatropin levels are very low anyway …we just need to stop using it before we regain normal function, or it will work against us eventually. (19) (20). Luckily, the temporary Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism that is experienced after a cycle basically allows us to respond to HCG like anyone with low LH levels (21), and thus, as I told you, a lot of the possible inhibitory effect of HCG is not going to be relevant because there was no prior “priming” by circulating gonadotrophins. This is great news for us, because we are going to be using HCG during PCT, when we need to get back some HPTA function, and not when we have levels of gonadatropins high enough to cause HCG-induced desensitization.

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not…you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of Nolvadex’s direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won’t be inhibited by it at all! Right? 

Well…maybe…but there’s still the issue of estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Well…we can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, I’d want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesn’t get rid of the problem that we have, which is the estrogen increase the HCG will cause.

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now…. Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we can’t use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn’t reduce exemestane’s effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.

With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well…we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we’d be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this PCT until we see our natural hormones restored…but weekly bloodwork isn’t really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I’m going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. It’s important to note I haven’t discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial…this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT:


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## dorian777 (Mar 18, 2014)

xchewbaccax777 said:


> 20 mgs daily for six weeks? Damn I have tamoxifen and Arimidex and I should get lots of HCG...500 iu daily of hcg? That's at the 50 mark on insulin sryinge right? I know I'm a novice.lol



You'll need basically two 5000 iu bottles of hcg.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)
> 
> After a cycle, we have one goal: to hold onto the gains we made during the cycle. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the levels of various hormones and other substances that were circulating around your body during the cycle (huge amounts of testosterone, insulin-like growth factor, growth hormone, and lower amounts of muscle-wasting glucocorticoids) are now changing. Sadly, they are making way for lower amounts of the hormones we want for building muscle, and higher amounts of the catabolic ones. What needs to be done, as quickly as possible, is to get your body to begin production of your own natural anabolic hormones, and produce less of the catabolic ones. Unfortunately, your body has other plans.
> But then, so do I…
> ...



I would love to read more of your writings if you have anything on nutrition or anything else this stuff is awesome and you are very smart


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)
> 
> After a cycle, we have one goal: to hold onto the gains we made during the cycle. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the levels of various hormones and other substances that were circulating around your body during the cycle (huge amounts of testosterone, insulin-like growth factor, growth hormone, and lower amounts of muscle-wasting glucocorticoids) are now changing. Sadly, they are making way for lower amounts of the hormones we want for building muscle, and higher amounts of the catabolic ones. What needs to be done, as quickly as possible, is to get your body to begin production of your own natural anabolic hormones, and produce less of the catabolic ones. Unfortunately, your body has other plans.
> But then, so do I…
> ...



Is insane here are my folliwing recommendations for PCT


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 18, 2014)

So 6 weeks and I'm home free then?


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## amateurmale (Mar 18, 2014)

Go by blood work


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## Magnus82 (Mar 18, 2014)

:yeahthat:  You may recover,  you may not.   That's the gamble you take.   These are some of the best options you have.   I would also add daa to your PCT as well as its one of the only otc products clinically proven to raise T levels.  Like AM said, go by blood work.  All else fails, you could try triptorelin.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 19, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> :yeahthat:  You may recover,  you may not.   That's the gamble you take.   These are some of the best options you have.   I would also add daa to your PCT as well as its one of the only otc products clinically proven to raise T levels.  Like AM said, go by blood work.  All else fails, you could try triptorelin.



Or try for life lol


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 19, 2014)

I will research triptorelin


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## Magnus82 (Mar 19, 2014)

xchewbaccax777 said:


> I will research triptorelin



Did you read the study I linked to you?


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 19, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Did you read the study I linked to you?



I read the information on PCT.. If you send me a link I must of missed it somehow


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 19, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Did you read the study I linked to you?



I did not get the link or at least its not showing up on my phone if you sent it


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## Trump40 (Mar 19, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Funny you say that because I've been off for 3 months and I have no drive in the gym



pop a adderall...


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## Magnus82 (Mar 19, 2014)

Single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again


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## bigpoppie (Mar 20, 2014)

I am seeing this from a completely different angle. 400-600mg test plus deca non stop for 3years, test levels of only a few hundred, and great blood work. I don't know about you guys but when I have only letro in me my test is in the 900s. I don't know anyone who's levels were even measurable when on cycle.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 22, 2014)

bigpoppie said:


> I am seeing this from a completely different angle. 400-600mg test plus deca non stop for 3years, test levels of only a few hundred, and great blood work. I don't know about you guys but when I have only letro in me my test is in the 900s. I don't know anyone who's levels were even measurable when on cycle.



Watson test... Have never fasted before bloods and I usually get bloods 2 days after my shot


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## chrisr116 (Mar 23, 2014)

Hell, my hdl was a low, low 28 after a 10 wk cycle of sust and deca recently.  Be careful with your all of your lipids, man.  Hell, have you thought about talking to a doctor about trt?  You test levels will probably be well under 200 when you come off cold turkey..


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## xchewbaccax777 (Mar 25, 2014)

chrisr116 said:


> Hell, my hdl was a low, low 28 after a 10 wk cycle of sust and deca recently.  Be careful with your all of your lipids, man.  Hell, have you thought about talking to a doctor about trt?  You test levels will probably be well under 200 when you come off cold turkey..



What do you mean by be careful w my lipids?


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## amateurmale (Mar 25, 2014)

He means don't let them get too bad. Some people never let their lipids recover before starting a new cycle.


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## xchewbaccax777 (Apr 9, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Did you read the study I linked to you?



Estro is 83, hdl 28 ...how do I raise hdl??


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## amateurmale (Apr 9, 2014)

Come off gear


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## Magnus82 (Apr 9, 2014)

xchewbaccax777;22956 Estro is 83 said:
			
		

> Never do orals and diet.  Here is a great article written by John Meadows.   Read it entirely and you will have a much better understanding of how to lower your lol and raise your hdl.
> 
> The Mountain Dog Diet—A Healthier Way to Get Lean/Add Muscle…or Both!


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## amateurmale (Apr 9, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Never do orals and diet.  Here is a great article written by John Meadows.   Read it entirely and you will have a much better understanding of how to lower your lol and raise your hdl.
> 
> The Mountain Dog Diet—A Healthier Way to Get Lean/Add Muscle…or Both!



Yeah orals along with tren, deca, and many other injectables


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## Magnus82 (Apr 9, 2014)

Lol,  you crack me up AM.   Did you start pct xchew?


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## amateurmale (Apr 9, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Lol,  you crack me up AM.   Did you start pct xchew?



Well its the truth man. Nobody hates that truth more than me I've been off since December and my HDL is only 33. The three safest compounds are test, master on, and Primobolan. My HDL got down to 28 on just test and Masteron


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## Magnus82 (Apr 9, 2014)

Have you tried the mountain dog diet AM?


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## amateurmale (Apr 9, 2014)

Absolutely I live it. You should see the farm where I get my eggs from I wrote a huge thread on Alan board about it


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## amateurmale (Apr 9, 2014)

My HDL only recovers about 1 point a week. However I think that's because my TRT does has been too high so now I'm experimenting with a lower dose then I will get blood work


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## xchewbaccax777 (Apr 9, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Lol,  you crack me up AM.   Did you start pct xchew?



Not yet... Going to wait a few more mins try to get down to 8% bodyfat before I do it


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## xchewbaccax777 (Aug 9, 2014)

Magnus82 said:


> Lol,  you crack me up AM.   Did you start pct xchew?



Starting in sept


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## xchewbaccax777 (Aug 9, 2014)

amateurmale said:


> Great! I'm always interested in other people's lipids since mine suck so bad.



All the pins and triglycerides its Andrew were in normal ranges fact everything was within the normal range


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## BigBob (Aug 9, 2014)

I've seen my hdl go up while on nolvadex and red yeast rice


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## xchewbaccax777 (Oct 17, 2016)

rangerjockey said:


> Everything I have read/learned is to come off for at least 30 days with proper PCT protocls with you, you might have to run PCT for a longer period of time.  IF it was me, I would come off for 4-6 months and really give your body and receptors a good rest. Maintain a clean diet to stay lean.  Then hit it for no more than 16 weeks, come off, PCT.  Thats what I would do....


I've been off for 3 weeks now after being on for 5 years. Just finished 5000 iu of HCG and started taking clomid 50mg daily. I have bad testicle pain in right nut and swelling. Is this normal? Should I go to the doctor?


Magnus82 said:


> How old are you?  Your natty levels now are no where near 600-800 while on.   I would be surprised, depending on your age,  if you could ever get them there naturally again. Congrats on getting getting bloods,  but they cannot show all the damage you are doing internally.   Also,  unless you are 8', you are clinically obese.   We all want to be big,  but damn son,  340.  Why are you this size?   Do you compete in powerlifting? Even so,  loosing some weight by coming off would help your health tremendously.  Diet down to even 260 and if you are the beast you say you are,  you will look incredible and probably even bigger.   Do your research on proper pct and consider hcg, serms, and triptorelin.  Here is a good read on triptorelin.   There is also other great studies on the above compounds on the site as well.   I noticed you posted this on another forum.   Be careful as you will always get a mixture of answers and will then use the one you want to hear.   The great thing about Anasci,  you get the cumulative advice of several seasoned vets,  which I would take any day.
> Single dose of triptorelin gets bodybuilder’s hormones going again




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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