# Going to failure vs not going to failure.



## RandomBear (Mar 7, 2013)

I know that some people like to go high volume and not go to failure on each set(e.g lee priest) while some people who like to go low volume and go to failure on every set(e.g mike mentzer or dorian yates). Currently i'm doing a sort of 2sets 6-8reps and going to failure on every set kind of thing and i was wondering if i should change over to the 4sets and 8-12reps but not going to failure program since a lot of people say that going to failure puts alot of stress on your nervous system and joints.


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## Enigmatic707 (Mar 7, 2013)

RandomBear said:


> I know that some people like to go high volume and not go to failure on each set(e.g lee priest) while some people who like to go low volume and go to failure on every set(e.g mike mentzer or dorian yates). Currently i'm doing a sort of 2sets 6-8reps and going to failure on every set kind of thing and i was wondering if i should change over to the 4sets and 8-12reps but not going to failure program since a lot of people say that going to failure puts alot of stress on your nervous system and joints.



Honestly maybe I'm going to confuse you and everyone else with this, but it's all about newtons.

The total volumetric workload is more important than the protocol used to achieve it. 

Put simply, do a lot of work and you'll grow


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## Magnus82 (Mar 7, 2013)

I seem to respond better going to failure, plus it gives me a definitive reference to increase my workload for the following workout.


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## chicken_hawk (Mar 7, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Honestly maybe I'm going to confuse you and everyone else with this, but it's all about newtons.
> 
> The total volumetric workload is more important than the protocol used to achieve it.
> 
> Put simply, do a lot of work and you'll grow



Enigma said it best, VOLUME IS KING! Obviously you need to push yourself and obviously you there is a limit to how much volume and intensity one can handle. However, a higher workload will trump a lower workload every time. That being said, if you bust your balls with HIT techniques and squeeze every last rep out of your two set, you will likely experience more gains than your counter part who performs three half assed sets. Just as Enigma alluded too, but the secret was not so much in the busting your ass as it was the fact that you created more force than your wussy partner and some other mathematical bullshit.

Keep in mind that muscle building is simply adapting to stress that we place on it, so the more stress you can place on it and recover to come back and do it again, the more gains you will experience. So, I can perform one set of twenty breathing squats with 315 then puke and call it a days (20x315=6300lbs) or I can perform 4 sets of 10 with 315(12,600lbs) and recover in around the same amount of time. In the first case, true it was an all out effort, but I paid for it because I was so fatigued I had no gas in the tank left. In the second example, I didn't push as hard in any one set, but the total effort and force I generated was much higher.

I recommend going to the point where you know you can not get another good rep. Then instead of getting one or two forced reps in which a training partner might be doing more of the work, safe that energy and put it into another set therefore increasing your workload.

Keep in mind that power lifters, olympic lifters and strongman rarely go to failur except during meets, but they train hard and have a high workload. In turn they are some big and bad mothers.

Hawk


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## AtomAnt (Mar 7, 2013)

I don't know if I agree with the whole "Volume is KING" philosophy... The truth is, the answer depends of your goals.  Maximal muscle hypertrophy is achieved through inducing the greatest amount of exercise induced muscular damage and then providing the nutrition to rebuild, repair and recover.  More damage = more opportunity for growth...how this is achieved comes down to individual training proclivities.  Some people like to slug away with tons and tons of volume, others use high intensity training techniques.  You need to find the method that allows you personally to create maximal stimulation.  One thing is true though, an emphasis on overloading the eccentric portion of a lift will induce greater muscular damage than reach fatigue on the concentric.  This is just one of the many reasons why DC is effective


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## Enigmatic707 (Mar 7, 2013)

I am about periodization- but I feel the majority of the time following a high volume workload is a best.

Basically the more minutes of the day there is load (concentric and eccentric) the more adaptation will be required and thus provided ( given adequate rest and nutrition)

I believe in alternating between volume and strength training. Kinda of a off the cuff idea would be 1 month of strength and power style training followed by two months of high intensity high volume training with a days mixed in to failure periodically.

Here's a decent article talking about German volume training. I was introduced to the science behind this concept around 12 years ago and I've noticed that regardless of protocol it's all about actual measurable work done ie- newtons/ Jules 

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/441/German_Volume_Training.aspx


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## xmen1234 (Mar 7, 2013)

Bottom line is that every individual is different.  What works for one person won't necessarily work for another.  If your goal is to add muscle mass, you must first and foremost have a diet strategy that will allow you to grow lean mass while keeping BF within a reasonable %.  That being said, your work out strategy must also be just as detailed.  Some respond well to low volume / high intensity and some respond just as well to high volume / low intensity.

You need to find that sweet spot that suits you best.  And that only comes from from years of trial and error.  

AtomAnt being a die hard DC disciple, will argue that his low volume / High intensity DC program work best.  That could simply be that it works best for HIM.  The outline of DC is awesome as it allows you to hit each muscle group 3 times every 2 weeks.  But you have to (and ATom, correct me if I am wrong), have a very strong mind set to run DC properly.  You have to push that last rep out, and while your body is saying, "I have nothing left", you mind has to be able to say, "SHUT THE FUCK UP, we have 1 more in us".

Personally I feel that as long as you are beating your last workout session in terms of weights used and reps completed, you on on the right path.

Just my 2 cents.  Take it for what it's worth.


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## AtomAnt (Mar 7, 2013)

Enigma, I am not going to disagree with you that TUT is a significant factor in hypertrophying the muscle.  And generally, when you are working with a good amount of TUT, you are controlling the eccentric portion (thus overloading the negative and stimulating growth).  

Personally, for myself, I've come to find that HIT (a la DC) works best for my goals, training mentality, and development.  But this does not mean I do not believe in the principles of other programs as I've seen and trained other using more volume based approaches.  

I look at it like this, there is spectrum where you have to be able to use sufficient volume, combined with a specific training protocol or level of intensity (I'm having trouble defining this, but I am thinking along the lines of stuff like forced reps, rest-pause, negatives, statics...in other words, the "special sauce" to a program) to create enough muscular damage and be able to train frequently enough to maximize the rest-recovery-growth period.  

Generally, with more volume, you are not going to be able to train as frequently (some genetic freaks don't fit within this realm) and make consistent progress and with HIT training, if you don't train with sufficient intensity, then you are not going to create the musclular damage needed for growth.  With HIT, you can train more frequently and have more growth cycles in a given period than with volume, but if nutrition is not on point, you aren't going to be able to use those growth cycles. 

So what I feel it comes down to is finding the right balance between volume, intensity and frequency that works for you...and this takes time, experience, learning and a hell of a lot of hours in the gym.  

X - You are spot on with the DC mentality, and with DC, it isn't just pushing out that last rep, it is getting that last rep and then holding a static until tears run down your face and your body starts to shake, then you know the muscle has had enough.   

BUT I will not argue that DC is best FOR EVERYONE, just for those who fit the profile of someone with right mindset and physical attributes.  In fact, I've told counteless people, NO, DC is not for you... There are many people who think they can follow the program and get results,,,sorry, this isn't color by numbers, just because you follow the program doesn't mean you are going to get the results.  You need to understand and apply the training principles and be able to push past what you ever thought you could do, you have to turn yourself into a human highlight reel when training...DAY...AFTER DAY...AFTER DAY....


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## Enigmatic707 (Mar 7, 2013)

AtomAnt said:


> Enigma, I am not going to disagree with you that TUT is a significant factor in hypertrophying the muscle.  And generally, when you are working with a good amount of TUT, you are controlling the eccentric portion (thus overloading the negative and stimulating growth).
> 
> Personally, for myself, I've come to find that HIT (a la DC) works best for my goals, training mentality, and development.  But this does not mean I do not believe in the principles of other programs as I've seen and trained other using more volume based approaches.
> 
> ...



Honestly if we both lifted side by side we would probably have a very similar style... I think a lot of this is semantics.

That's why at the end of my first post I just said "lift a lot often and you'll grow" LoL


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## AtomAnt (Mar 7, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> Honestly if we both lifted side by side we would probably have a very similar style... *I think a lot of this is semantics.*That's why at the end of my first post I just said "lift a lot often and you'll grow" LoL



I agree.  I just wish more people would realize that it is not a game of volume versus HIT, it is finding the right volume, right intensity and right frequency.  

The ones who never change their style are the ones you see in the gym year after year that look the exact same...the body adapts, if you don't change the stimulus, say hello to stagnation haha.

Next off-season I actually might get with John Meadows for some MD training (still having Scott Stevenson work my diet though).  I think going through phases of something like MD training and DC would keep things fresh and can accelerate some new growth.


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## xmen1234 (Mar 7, 2013)

AtomAnt said:


> *Next off-season I actually might get with John Meadows for some MD training* (still having Scott Stevenson work my diet though).  I think going through phases of something like MD training and DC would keep things fresh and can accelerate some new growth.



Hope your gym has chains, and bands.


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## AtomAnt (Mar 7, 2013)

xmen1234 said:


> Hope your gym has chains, and bands.



That is a limitation that I have been thinking about... and one reason why that plan may not work as I wanted.  But Scott is making his own program that looks pretty sweet and I think I am going to be running that one after my next show.


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## xmen1234 (Mar 7, 2013)

AtomAnt said:


> But Scott is making his own program that looks pretty sweet and I think I am going to be running that one after my next show.



Do tell.


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## AtomAnt (Mar 7, 2013)

xmen1234 said:


> Do tell.



He is keeping pretty tight lipped until he is ready to release it but it is loosely based off of the Titan training system and will take the concept of "muscle rounds" a step further with progressive overload and he is building in a system of periodization that escalates the intensity over a period of time before deloading. 

The muscle rounds are like rest-pause sets where basically you do 4 mini sets with 10 second rests between each mini set. You use either your 8 or 10 rep max and do either 6 or 8 reps respectively. You repeat the muscle round 4 times!


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## Thunder46 (Mar 7, 2013)

High volume seems to work well for me I start off the year doing german high volume 10 sets of 10 I use to do DC training but as I am older its just to much stress on my old joints, and I have found for me higher rep volume works my legs better than the 6-10 rep range that most do


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## chicken_hawk (Mar 8, 2013)

I think that we have touched on a tangent which may be equally as important as the science and that is you have to find the style that fits your personality.Some people have a "HIT" mind set. I typicaly find them to be ectomorphs while your endomorphs generally lean towards volume. Ecto's usually have fast metabolism and are always moving so DC fits their persoanlity well. Endo's tend to football linemen and move slower and tend to favor longer workouts. 

I have always said that that the best workout is the one you enjoy and keeps you coming back to the gym.

BTW I realize we could go back and forth all day about volume vs. effort, but at the end of the day we are all going to do what we like anyway...kinda like politics.

Hawk


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## Enigmatic707 (Mar 8, 2013)

chicken_hawk said:


> I think that we have touched on a tangent which may be equally as important as the science and that is you have to find the style that fits your personality.Some people have a "HIT" mind set. I typicaly find them to be ectomorphs while your endomorphs generally lean towards volume. Ecto's usually have fast metabolism and are always moving so DC fits their persoanlity well. Endo's tend to football linemen and move slower and tend to favor longer workouts.
> 
> I have always said that that the best workout is the one you enjoy and keeps you coming back to the gym.
> 
> ...



Great point about the endo/ ecto differences. I tend to be more endo/meso... And yeah I gravitate towards volume with extreme intensity.


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## Thunder46 (Mar 8, 2013)

chicken_hawk said:


> I think that we have touched on a tangent which may be equally as important as the science and that is you have to find the style that fits your personality.Some people have a "HIT" mind set. I typicaly find them to be ectomorphs while your endomorphs generally lean towards volume. Ecto's usually have fast metabolism and are always moving so DC fits their persoanlity well. Endo's tend to football linemen and move slower and tend to favor longer workouts.
> 
> I have always said that that the best workout is the one you enjoy and keeps you coming back to the gym.
> 
> ...



Well said Chicken Hawk


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## RandomBear (Mar 8, 2013)

Thanks guys for sharing i really learned a lot.


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## turbobusa (Mar 8, 2013)

Very good points from all. For myself  stength building = training for a peak in the future so no going to failure( not intentionally) at least not during deconditioning. For size /strength in bodybuilding. I know for myself going to failure is important. Not every set though as I feel there is a need for volume as well. By the way training to failure does not have to be hard on joints .
You can train to failure while coming nowhere close to maximal 1=2 3 rep sets/
attempts. While there are many crossover similartities between iron power sports and bodybuilding there are many differences as well. 
I found the best way for myself in the past has been more of a power bodybuilding regimen that I evolved for myself. Failure sometimes. Never to failure at other times.Periodization and changeup. Main goal?- continuous gains 
be it size, strength or cosmetic improvements.Have to say you guys really 
put some good opinion and info out there. Thanks, T


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## chrisr116 (Mar 8, 2013)

Enigmatic707 said:


> I am about periodization- but I feel the majority of the time following a high volume workload is a best.
> 
> Basically the more minutes of the day there is load (concentric and eccentric) the more adaptation will be required and thus provided ( given adequate rest and nutrition)
> 
> ...



GVT is no joke.  It will make the biggest, baddest man limp to the car like a little girl, after leg day.


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## turbobusa (Mar 9, 2013)

wanna see a big time volme trained back (40 -60 sets)? Look up Roy Callender.
Fantastic back and a true golden era great. T


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## chicken_hawk (Mar 9, 2013)

turbobusa said:


> Very good points from all. For myself  stength building = training for a peak in the future so no going to failure( not intentionally) at least not during deconditioning. For size /strength in bodybuilding. I know for myself going to failure is important. Not every set though as I feel there is a need for volume as well. By the way training to failure does not have to be hard on joints .
> You can train to failure while coming nowhere close to maximal 1=2 3 rep sets/
> attempts. While there are many crossover similartities between iron power sports and bodybuilding there are many differences as well.
> I found the best way for myself in the past has been more of a power bodybuilding regimen that I evolved for myself. Failure sometimes. Never to failure at other times.Periodization and changeup. Main goal?- continuous gains
> ...



tt, you bring up yet another solid point that needs to be considered and depending on your sport set extension methods become down right dangerous. Certainly you don't want forced reps on a overhead log press, clean and jerk or even a 500lb squat with bands. I would dare to say unnecessary, but then on other things such as accessory work like the dumbbell bench you might reach for a forced rep or two.

Hawk


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