# How to keep gains during your OFF cycle..



## shamrock10 (Sep 9, 2004)

how do you guys keep your gains during your off cycle, because i know it is easy to lose your gains when your off the juice. you think no2 and protein mix is good to help keep myself up until my next cycle?? what do you guys do?


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## tee (Sep 9, 2004)

I have an article called the gainskeeper formula, but I never tried it. Its on my comp at home so I dont have access to it right now. Usually, I just take Creatine, eat clean, and continue with my protein intake. I notice when I stop a cycle, I lose a bit of the gains, but if I keep working hard, my muscles rebound somewhat and I usually end up a little bigger than before the previous cycle.


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## BIO (Sep 9, 2004)

shamrock10 said:
			
		

> how do you guys keep your gains during your off cycle, because i know it is easy to lose your gains when your off the juice. you think no2 and protein mix is good to help keep myself up until my next cycle?? what do you guys do?



Nolvadex 40mg ED 3 for weeks after gear clears system
Clomid 100mg ED 3 for weeks after gear clears system
HCG 500IU EOD 3 for weeks after gear clears system

Your test levels will bounce back fast and you will therefor feel ok and want to train and not feel tired. Creatine is good and keep the calories high for 3 weeks then you can taper down calories after test levels are back up again to normal.

Or just use 50mg propionate eod for three weeks with the above mentioned items but then you are really never coming off and will continue making small gains during that time and will just be keeping your test levels somewhat back to normal before hitting gear hard again. Called cruising system works like a charm. Never lose gains. If you choose to stay on gear all the time even in low dose its wide to take 1mg finasteride every day it will protect you from enlarged prostate and pain during yurination and decrease risk of cancer in prostate from high testosterone usage according to many doctors.


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## heavy (Sep 9, 2004)

BIO LABS said:
			
		

> Nolvadex 40mg ED 3 for weeks after gear clears system
> Clomid 100mg ED 3 for weeks after gear clears system
> HCG 500IU EOD 3 for weeks after gear clears system
> 
> ...



Good post, and in addition, you can also use low doses of arimidex, in the range of .25mg 3x per week. I have seen studies verifying that it has testosterone boosting effects similar to nolvadex.


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## shamrock10 (Sep 9, 2004)

im only going to have nolva and clomid on hand...is that ok?

im going to do a 10 week test e cycle (my first cycle) so im going to be shooting 250 mg twice a week. i am going to take nolva ED during the cycle and clomid ED for PCT for 4 weeks after the 10 weeks of cycling. I dont have any HCG, is that ok? heres what my cycle is going to look like...

Testosterone Ethanate E3D for weeks 1-10
Nolvadex ED for weeks 1-10
Clomid ED for PCT for weeks 11-14

*OFF PERIOD creatine,whey protein for 14 weeks.

Does that sound good or would you guys make adjustments??


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## tee (Sep 9, 2004)

Do you want PCT info, or are you wanting info on what do do after PCT? I personally like to take HCG throughout the cycle instead of at the end, but thats personal preference. I also prefer taking Nolvadex throughut my cycles and also for PCT. Clomid gives me zits.

If you only have Nolvadex and Clomid, thats fine. I use HCG to aid in recovery but only for cycles 8 weeks or longer. If you are taking shorter cycles, you dont need HCG. Also, many dont use HCG at all so if you dont have it, the cycle isnt a total waste. I would use it for longer cycles though. Also, dont take Nolvadex & Clomid together. Pick one or take Nolvadex throughout the cycle and Clomid for your PCT.

Did all that blabbering make any sense?  lol


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## heavy (Sep 9, 2004)

tee said:
			
		

> . Also, dont take Nolvadex & Clomid together. Pick one or take Nolvadex throughout the cycle and Clomid for your PCT.



Can you elaborate on why not to take both drugs? Nolvadex has been shown to increase testosterone levels more so than clomid, and in addition it helps with the inevitable post cycle estrogen rebound. Both drugs combined should work much better for PCT...at least thats my opinion.


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## BIO (Sep 10, 2004)

do not waste your money do not take anything during cycle. Use nolvadex or arimidex if gyno occurs.

Clomid and nolvadex together is a must. If you use only clomid your estrogen levels will rise quickly because your test levels rebounding causing gyno and your body will actually fight the clomid to stop the gyno its your body natural reaction to fix the problem but it causes more problem be cause it will take forever for your natural test levels to get back up.

Clomid will raise test levels. Nolvadex keeps estrogen down and allows clomid to work freely and eliminates risk of gyno

HCG will not permanently keep test levels up but is effective at jump starting the process. It tricks your body to produce test


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## shamrock10 (Sep 10, 2004)

so just the 2 shots a week of test e then? nothnig else?
 and then nolva and clomid for pct right?


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## BIO (Sep 10, 2004)

shamrock10 said:
			
		

> so just the 2 shots a week of test e then? nothnig else?
> and then nolva and clomid for pct right?



Yes thats correct but you need to listen to me when I say this is your last chance to make unbelievable gains! You need to add:

Deca 400mg week
Dbol 50mg ED (through whole cycle 10 weeks liver will be fine)

Up the test to 600mg also.

Do not think that this is high doses for first cycle as it is not. If you do not use the fulkl potential of first cycle you will kick your self in the but later. trust me when I say that every cycle after this one will gain you maybee 5 ponds if you bust your ass and later in time 2 lbs or 1lb. This is your everything here in this cycle you can bust your barrier and change your whole physique expect 20-30lbs gains and after off if done correct you will keep mostly everything except water weight from the dbol.

You need any help email me or post here.

Also, I think you emailed me for pics but I am haviung trouble with my email I will send from different email account.


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## tee (Sep 12, 2004)

heavy said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on why not to take both drugs? Nolvadex has been shown to increase testosterone levels more so than clomid, and in addition it helps with the inevitable post cycle estrogen rebound. Both drugs combined should work much better for PCT...at least thats my opinion.



I cant really elaborate scientifically why not to take both, just from experience. I have tried Clomid alone and got lots of zits. I have tried Nolvadex alone and got fewer zits. Both seemed to aid slightly in cycle recovery for me. I have combined them both for PCT and did not get any better results. IMO, I would save my money and stick with one or the other for PCT. 

Is there anyone out there that got bettter results when combining the two together during PCT?


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## heavy (Sep 12, 2004)

tee said:
			
		

> I cant really elaborate scientifically why not to take both, just from experience. I have tried Clomid alone and got lots of zits. I have tried Nolvadex alone and got fewer zits. Both seemed to aid slightly in cycle recovery for me. I have combined them both for PCT and did not get any better results. IMO, I would save my money and stick with one or the other for PCT.
> 
> Is there anyone out there that got bettter results when combining the two together during PCT?




Good enough evidence for me...whatever works best for the indivual counts most.


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## BIO (Sep 12, 2004)

Zits should not be the concern here. take some accutate. The concern is getting test levels back to normal. You need both to do it as fast as possible.


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## rebhchad (Sep 12, 2004)

what about this stuff called test-rx

discription:  testosterone 4c, sublingual pellets, 380 pellest per vial (six week supply at suggested dosage).  derived from 100% natural sources.  approved by th fda as a homeopathic medicine.

suggested use:  three pellets dissolved under the tongue three times daiy.

indications:  homeopathic test 4c is indicated as possibly being an aid to both male and female athletes seeking to safely increase their natural production of test.

what do you guys think?  i got some just to try.  
cuz, im just now comeing off a cycle of test and eq.


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## imdaman1 (Sep 13, 2004)

Clomid is obsolete.  Nolva and HCG are all you need.  I also think 500mg of test is insufficient.  Bump it up to at least 750mg - why f... around - if you're gonna juice - then JUICE!!!  Deca @ at least 400mg / wk and dbol @ at least 50mg daily.  F the BS.


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## tee (Sep 13, 2004)

BIO LABS said:
			
		

> Zits should not be the concern here. take some accutate. The concern is getting test levels back to normal. You need both to do it as fast as possible.


I'm not saying zits are my major concern. I said zits are about the only difference I notice from Clomid to Nolvadex. Many others experience other negative problems with Clomid ie. mood changes, suicidal thoughts, optic neuropathy and prolonged visual disturbances etc. Each person is different so each should try to see what works best for them. Do you have any medical studies as to the benefits of taking both Clomid & Nolvadex or is that just your opinion?


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## tee (Sep 13, 2004)

This is interesting:

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=6&pageID=72


Also, SWALE, a doctor for allthingsmale.com states that they both do the same thing. So why use them concurrently? Doing so just complicates dosing protocols. 

As far as how they work at the HP, a good way to think about what Clomid, Nolvadex AND Arimidex all do is to prevent "activation" of the estrogen receptor. The two SERM's by blocking the receptor, and the Arimidex by actually lowering serum estrogen concentrations. Nolvadex and arimidex also stimulate LH and FSH and therefore there is no reason to switch to clomid post cycle


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## BIO (Sep 13, 2004)

tee said:
			
		

> This is interesting:
> 
> http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=6&pageID=72
> 
> ...



Very good info Tee. Ya have me thinking now. But for some reason I still recover quicker using both and many guys I know do also without HCG. Many are set against HCG use because HCG is used incorrectly can permanently shut down test production with no chance of ever coming back. Injecting 1 gram of test per week for 6 months and your test levels will return eventually. Crazy human body..lol

Great info. Do what works best for ya guys.


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## DragonRider (Sep 13, 2004)

Here is something to chew on. Thank God for cut and paste.

Nolvadex VS. Clomid

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation 
By William Llewellyn 

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production. 

Clomid and Nolvadex 

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two. 

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side. 

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH 

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex. 

The Estrogen Clomid 

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation". 

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture. 

Conclusion 

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation. 

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time. 

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time. 

References 
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7 

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30 

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45 
_________________


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## tee (Sep 13, 2004)

Thats why I linked to it! Even easier than cut & paste


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## tee (Sep 13, 2004)

BIO LABS said:
			
		

> Very good info Tee. Ya have me thinking now. But for some reason I still recover quicker using both and many guys I know do also without HCG. Many are set against HCG use because HCG is used incorrectly can permanently shut down test production with no chance of ever coming back. Injecting 1 gram of test per week for 6 months and your test levels will return eventually. Crazy human body..lol
> 
> Great info. Do what works best for ya guys.



Yep, everyone responds to things differently. I have heard that some people believe that they respond better with both Clomid & Nolva as compared to just one. Im not one of them. I guess Im lucky in that respect because if I was, I would just be buying more stuff & spendng more $$$! lol

I agree that HCG can be dangerous if used incorrectly. I always felt safer in taking lower doses throughout the cycle instead of several larger injections att he end. Some swear bythat method though as well.   I never use HCG unless Im taking a fairly long cycle with several substances in it. Just my preference.


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## DragonRider (Sep 13, 2004)

tee said:
			
		

> Thats why I linked to it! Even easier than cut & paste


Sorry, I stold that from EliteFitness. I didn't even check your link.


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## MYRICK (Sep 14, 2004)

BIO LABS said:
			
		

> Yes thats correct but you need to listen to me when I say this is your last chance to make unbelievable gains! You need to add:
> 
> Deca 400mg week
> Dbol 50mg ED (through whole cycle 10 weeks liver will be fine)
> ...


NOT TRUE ON MY 7TH CYCLE I GAINED 24 LBS.

400MG DECA IS ALOT FOR A FIRST CYCLE THATS A GOOD DOSE FOR A MORE EXPERIENCED USER.

NO NEED FOR HCG AND DONT TAKE IT AFTER CYCLE ANYWAY

IF U WANT RUN 10MG NOLVA THROUGHOUT UR CYCLE THATS WHAT I STARTED DOING.  

AS FAR AS NEEDING PCT AT ALL U MAY NOT. UNTIL MY LAST CYLE I NEVER DID IT AND I ONLY DID IT THEN BECAUSE OF THE LENGTH OF TIME AND THE HIGH DOSES I WAS ON.


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## tee (Sep 14, 2004)

MYRICK said:
			
		

> NOT TRUE ON MY 7TH CYCLE I GAINED 24 LBS.
> 
> 400MG DECA IS ALOT FOR A FIRST CYCLE THATS A GOOD DOSE FOR A MORE EXPERIENCED USER.
> 
> ...




24 pounds on a 7th cycle is damn good. Hell, I havent gained 24 pounds on a cycle ever. lol. I take small doses though. I haven't ever gone over 600mg of test and 400 mg of Deca. I also have never taken more than two AAS in the same cycle. I'm sure if I upped the doses, I could make major gains, but I'm happy with not having to worry about my health and still being a decent size.


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## MYRICK (Sep 14, 2004)

yeah i was running 1200 test 600 eq and 400 deca with 50mg dbol. that may have been my 8th cycle tho shit ive lost count


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## tee (Sep 14, 2004)

MYRICK said:
			
		

> yeah i was running 1200 test 600 eq and 400 deca with 50mg dbol. that may have been my 8th cycle tho shit ive lost count



I bet yor a MONSTER!


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## MYRICK (Sep 14, 2004)

Stats Are In My Sig Im Actually In The 240s Now Trying To Drop Some Weight Im Getting Back Into The Martial Arts.


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## tee (Sep 14, 2004)

MYRICK said:
			
		

> Stats Are In My Sig Im Actually In The 240s Now Trying To Drop Some Weight Im Getting Back Into The Martial Arts.



Duh, how'd I miss that one! lol. Is that you in your moniker before your cycle?


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## MYRICK (Sep 14, 2004)

nah bro thats after i gained all the weight


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## tee (Sep 15, 2004)

MYRICK said:
			
		

> nah bro thats after i gained all the weight



Yer pretty buff then. Please dont steal my lunch money


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## imdaman1 (Sep 15, 2004)

MODERATOR said:
			
		

> Duh, how'd I miss that one! lol. Is that you in your moniker before your cycle?



Define the work "moniker."


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## BIO (Sep 15, 2004)

MYRICK said:
			
		

> NOT TRUE ON MY 7TH CYCLE I GAINED 24 LBS.
> 
> 400MG DECA IS ALOT FOR A FIRST CYCLE THATS A GOOD DOSE FOR A MORE EXPERIENCED USER.
> 
> ...



Ok not true for you but it is for most guys. If we do a poll I bet 90% gain huge amounts their first cycle and fight a like hell to make small gains after. Genes play a big role in this sport. Sounds like your's are pretty good.


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